Talk:Hannah Szenes

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Untitled[edit]

Pictures??

The photo on the page of Hannah Szenes pictures her in a WWII Hungarian officer's uniform. It certainly does not refer to her real life. According to a schoolmate of hers, it was probably taken at a school performance. I suggest that it should be taken off the page and possibly replaced with a more authentic one, as it is a mockery of her life and self-sacrifice. Spicegirl 03:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Hecht’s Perfidy is the good and reliable sources? No.--Pessimist 06:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pessimist2006 (talk • contribs)

The link to a modern setting of "Eli, Eli" appears to link to a modern setting of a different poem, based on the words of Jesus on the cross as reported in Matthew 27:46. A search for "Eli, Eli" on Youtube will show what I mean: half of the results are for the song based on Hannah Senesh's poem, the other half are for musical settings of the Jesus quotation. I therefore suggest that this reference be removed. It could be replaced with a link to one of several renderings of the Senesh poem by famous singers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strawinthewind (talk • contribs) 23:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is beyond dumb to 'Anglicise' her name[edit]

She was Hungarian, she was Jewish, and her name is in Roman characters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 08:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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WAAF and Army?[edit]

The article states she joined the British Army, then the Womans Auxilary Air Force. The WAAF is part of the Royal Air Force not the Army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.245.90 (talk) 18:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe "She was executed by a German firing squad on November 7, 1944.[5]"[edit]

I do not believe "She was executed by a German firing squad on November 7, 1944.[5]" It happened in the Margit körut fegyház (Margit boulevard prison), which was in the hands of Hungarian nazis, not Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB88:5004:E700:D1BA:2264:365D:8C2D (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Correct the Hungarians killed her 185.196.92.200 (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Any reliable source backing up such claims? A09 (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Found a couple: "Hannah Szenes (1921– 1944) was executed by a Hungarian firing squad",[1][2][3] "captured and executed by Hungarian fascists"[4] and "caught, tortured and finally executed by the Hungarian pro-Nazi regime"[5] Aeengath (talk) 08:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Purpose of the SOE mission[edit]

This Paul Bogdanor article cites Benjamin Halevy on the purpose of the SOE mission (note that the SOE wasn't actually part of the British Army): "As Judge Halevi explained: ‘In early 1944 [the paratroopers] volunteered under the aegis of the British army… to undertake a dual mission. The British military mission was to smuggle POWs and send intelligence out of Hungary. The Jewish Agency mission was to organise Hungarian Jews for self-defence against the Nazi destroyer and to assist the underground rescue of Jews.’ (Halevi 1955: section 82)"     ←   ZScarpia   16:13, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following cited source gives more detail: Baumel-Schwartz, Judith Tydor (2010). Perfect heroes: the World War II parachutists and the making of Israeli collective memory. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 30. ISBN 978-0-299-23484-3.     ←   ZScarpia   11:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Szenes was part of "A Force", which operated under the auspices of MI9 rather than SOE[edit]

The Jewish Parachutists were divided into two groups, which operated under the auspices of two different British organisations, MI9 and the Inter-Services Liaison Department (ISLD), the latter being a front for the SOE. Szenes was part of "A Force", which operated under MI9. As such, she wasn't an SOE "member".

From Perfect heroes: the World War II parachutists and the making of Israeli collective memory (2010) by Judith Tydor Baumel-Schwartz:

Pages 9-10:
"Although the parachutists' mission was carried out under general British auspices, various British agencies, both military and civiliam alike, were involved in it at different times. These included two of the three majory British organizations involved in covert anti-Nazi activity in Europe during World War II, namely, the Secret Intelligence Service (SIS), the MI9, and the aforementioned Special Operations Executive (SOE). The first of these, which was least involved in the parachutists' mission, was the SIS, which operated under the auspices of the Foreign Office and was charged with gathering intelligence information. The MI9 was the only agency that functioned under direct military auspices. However, as of July 1940 most of the covert British efforts in Europe (propaganda, secret agents, encouraging local underground movements,etc.) were concentrated in a new entity, the SOE, which included intelligence divisions that had previously belonged to other military and civiliam agencies. Although the SIS gathered intelligence material through an investigative bureau established in Haifa in 1940, it was not directly involved in the parachutists' operation. This was left to the SOE and MI9, each of which sponsored a group of Yishuv agents who would ultimately work alongside each other in Europe. The first group created was the "A Force," a military intelligence division belonging to MI9 and operating under the auspices of the Ministry of War. Colonel Tony Simmonds - a former deputy of British Military leader Orde Wingate who earned his Zionist fame by establishing the "night squads" in Palestine during the late 1930s - commanded the parachutists working under the "A Force." The second body within which the parachutists operated is referred to by Israeli historians as the Inter-Service Liaison Department (ISLD). This entity, which is never mentioned by that name in British intelligence literature, operated under the auspices of the Ministry of Economic Warfare and was essentiallly a front set up by the SOE to coordinate its work in the Middle East. Relations between the different British intelligence agencies were rarely marked by a spirit of collaboration; more often they were characterized by incessant suspicion, both on the interpersonal level and in light of the traditional rivalries between their respective ministries. Given this state of affairs, the Jewish Agency liaisons sought to take advantage of the breaches and rivalries between the British agencies in order to achieve their objective. Consequently, some of the parachutists left for Europe under the command of one agency, while others set out on their mission under the auspices of another."

Page 10:

"None of the three actually had a Zionist assignment, which was part of the agreement, according to which parachutists operating on behalf of the ISLD would work mainly for the British, whereas those under the umberlla of the "A Force" would focus on Jewish concerns."

Page 13:

"Hopes that the mission would materialize and approach its operational stage grew stronger every day. In the autumn of 1943 four of the "A Force" candidates - Berger, Trachtenberg, Berdiczew, and Hannah Szenes of Kibbutz Sdot Yam (located near Caeserea on the shores of the Mediterranean), daughter of the then well known Hungarian writer Bela Szenes - began crash courses to train as a British radio operator and signal-corps member at Kibbutz Ramat Hakovesh in the center of Palestine. Once again the British insisted that the volunteers enlist in the British army - not only to ensure their status if they were captured but also to ensure that the overall command would remain British."

    ←   ZScarpia   15:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source: Ben Hecht, Perfidy (1961)[edit]

Though it's probably best not to regard it as a reliable source, Ben Hecht's 1961 book Perfidy is widely cited in the article. According to the Wikipedia article on the book: "Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University says, "It is an amazing piece of writing, it's very passionate. It's not historical ... The problem is lots of the information in it is, is wrong!" She mentions Hecht's involvement with the Bergson boys and says, "much of what he's writing is Kastner as a foil for attacking Ben Gurion, for attacking the Labor Party, and he makes claims in there about the Labor Party, about Ben Gurion, not caring about what was going on in Europe, which is, again, historians now show, has simply not stood the test of time.""     ←   ZScarpia   12:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:08, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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