Talk:Scallion

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On 20 October 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Green onion. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Champ[edit]

I just re-added extra info about the use of scallions in a very well known regional dish called Champ. Previously my edit was removed by an editor whose edit summary was "Reverting unnecessary addition". I'm not sure what constitutes "necessary" or "unnecessary" in the editor's mind, but I think further explanation is certainly warranted. This is an encyclopaedia, and the storage space is unlimited. There is an article on champ, and the dish is particularly relevant to this article. Note that I re-added the deleted information not merely to 'edit-war', but rather to prompt discussion here. --82.21.97.70 (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Young onions[edit]

Spring onions are in fact young onions which are harvested in spring, before the onion bulb is allowed to swell. This is not made clear in the lead section. Darorcilmir (talk) 12:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

True, but plants grown as "spring onions", at least in the UK, are not just any onion cultivars, but ones bred to grow in a manner that facilitates their use as "spring onions". For example, they are slower to form sizeable bulbs and have a length of white stem, like a leek. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Green onions/scallions naming dispute[edit]

I know there's another section discussing this matter, but that one dates from a few years ago, and while the consensus there seems to have disliked the article giving the term "scallion" priority, it also didn't change it.

Being an American myself, I had never heard the term "scallion" until fairly recently; maybe only within the last five years or so. It does seem to be a regional term here in the US, but hardly a widely used one, at least on a national level. Here in California, these little guys are only ever labeled as "green onions" in supermarkets. Moreover, and while this is only anecdotal, I've only ever seen the term "green onions" used in various other parts of the US I've traveled to. The exception to this seems to be—and, again, this is only anecdotal—cooking programs, which seem to prefer the use of "scallion" over "green onion."

A Google search turns up over 300 million hits for "green onions," but that also includes hits for the eponymous and well-known instrumental. Even so, a search for "green onions vegetable" returns over 197 million results, about four times as many as "scallions," which only produces 49 million. Keeping these results in mind, and in the spirit of WP:BOLD, I moved the article from "scallion" to "green onion." Users in other Anglophone regions, which prefer the term "spring onion," would likely find "green onion" more recognizable than "scallion."

If this change is deemed unhelpful, however, please do feel free to revert and let me know why. Thanks in advance. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ha—spoke too soon! Seems like this article is protected against moving. So I'll put forward a request to move the article according to the reasons listed above. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.thekitchn.com/whats-the-difference-between-spring-onions-scallions-and-green-onions-word-of-mouth-217111 distinguishes spring onions as those whose bulb has been allowed to grow — and I know from purchasing them at retail that for sale they can grow a lot bigger than the bulbs shown there. I gather that Wikipedia wants to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, but I wish the word "scallion" were reserved to unambiguously refer to the type of green onion whose bulb is not bulbous at all, and "spring onion" for those with sizable bulbs.69.125.229.110 (talk) 17:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen greengroceries label bins of these as "bulb" or "knob" onions. Some sell them with small bulbs, others with bulbs as big as non-green onions. They do tend to be more easily available (in the NY-NJ area of the USA) in the springtime, though bunches of the smaller-bulbed ones are occasionally available other times of year, but in general bulb/knob/spring onions are less likely available in a store, ever, than scallions. Wikipedia doesn't have an entry on bulb/knob/spring onions, which are not as widely known as scallions (non-bulbous green onions), but it should, which will require removal of the redirection. Probably a disambiguation page is called for.69.125.229.110 (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 October 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Scallion → Green onion – A Google search turns up over 300 million hits for "green onions," but that also includes hits for the eponymous and well-known instrumental. A search for "green onions vegetable" returns over 197 million results, about four times as many as "scallions," which only produces 49 million. In addition, users in other Anglophone regions, which prefer the term "spring onion," would probably find "green onion" more recognizable than "scallion." CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:03, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose [revised opinion] Finding an article title for a heterogeneous set of items defined by use rather than intrinsic nature is always difficult, but as someone who would use "spring onion", I initially agreed that "green onion" is preferable to "scallion", but the Google Ngrams referenced below have convinced me otherwise. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Google web search results figures are very unreliable. Google Books Ngrams are much more precise, and they show scallion having a slight lead over green onion (this is also true if you restrict to either of the American or British corpora). Colin M (talk) 21:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question, because I’m not familiar with Google Books Ngrams: does it only track the usage of words in books or use overall? I ask because I literally had never heard of the word “scallion” until around 2016—and I’m an American. Apparently, “scallion” is a regional term, although unsure from where exactly. Having lived most of my life in California and the West Coast, I can at least attest anecdotally to neither having seen nor heard the term hereabouts. Supermarkets here invariably label them “green onions”; this has also been the case in various other US areas I’ve traveled to. Maybe I’m just a little too off the grid (quite a feat to pull off in the second largest city in the country!), but it seems possible that while “scallion” may be preferred in culinary media, “green onions” is far more commonly used by ordinary people. Thank you for your input, by the way. I appreciate it. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 00:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It indexes most books that have ever been published (up until 2019). We can sort of test your hypothesis by changing the corpus from "English" to "English fiction", thus excluding cookbooks (and gardening books, and other nonfiction) - however this still shows "scallion" having a bit of a lead. FWIW, I'm from Southern Ontario and I generally use "green onion", but have recognized both forms as long as I can remember. Colin M (talk) 00:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the full "English (2019)" corpus shows "spring onion(s)" is slightly more common than "green onion(s)". I've revised my initial view above. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I wouldn't refer to a spring onion as either a green onion or a scallion, but I do actually know what the latter is. Never heard the former, however. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I can't say I'm surprised that the above move request failed - it happens all the time with culinary and vegetable articles. Anyone who has ploughed through the talk archives for rutabaga or canola will recognise the issues. Editors tend to overestimate the global importance of their regional names for things, and US editors in particular are very protective of their terminology and usage, which in turn tends to enrage Brits. Personally I think all these articles should really use the botanic names, with the various regional common names listed in the lede and created as redirects, but there seems to be very little support for this. --Ef80 (talk) 14:20, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well it has my support, but in general it seems that you are right that there's little general support. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]