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The article currently states, "Hunyadi's year of birth is uncertain. Although Gáspár Heltai writes that Hunyadi was born in 1390, he must have actually been born between around 1405 and 1407, because his younger brother was only born after 1409, and a difference of almost two decades between the two brothers' age is not plausible." The assertion that the brothers could not have been born 19 years apart is surprising without further explanation. While mother and infant survival rates were low in Mediaeval Europe, contraception was unreliable at best. In the absence of reliable contraception, women tend to have their first child when they are younger than women using contraception, and their last child when they are older. Women tend to be fertile from their mid teens, and tend to reach menopause anywhere between their late thirties and their late 50s. A nineteen year span between eldest and youngest sibling is not unknown today, and would also have been plausible in Mediaeval Europe. Marynz (talk) 06:39, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So Gáspár Heltai writes that Hunyadi was born in 1390, that should be written at the start of John Hunyadi's wikipedia page and a question mark should be put near the year or write "circa 1390, uncertain". So we know from Gáspár Heltai as well that John Hunyadi, Ban of Severin was born in 1419? So why do we trust Gáspár Heltai on John Hunyadi, Ban of Severin birth year but not John Hunyadi's birth year? Since John Hunyadi's mother is unknown and Morzsinai Erzsébet first appeared in Hungarian legends and was added in 1575 by Gáspár Heltai, maybe Voyk of Wallachia remarried and had John Hunyadi, Ban of Severin with a second wife? Or it could be the same wife. There is a 10 year difference between my mom and her younger brother so a 10-15 even 20 year difference is not impossible. But a 29 year difference is very big indeed. So again we have to take what Gáspár Heltai says with a grain of salt just like with "Morzsinai Erzsébet" deal.
Again, maybe you can put 1390 but write "uncertain" near the year or a question mark? Ninhursag3 (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because we are not here to share our own thoughts about his year of birth or about the reliability of primary sources, but to summarize scholarly PoVs. If the scholarly consensus is that he was born between around 1405 and 1407, we cannot say that he was born around 1390. Borsoka (talk) 10:39, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please provide the scholarly consensus? Also between 1405 and 1407 is awfully exact, why before 1405 exactly? Why must it be before 1405? Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
why not before 1405 exactly* sorry, my mistake. Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why must it not be before 1405?* Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:24, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[1] I see the intention that you try several times rewrite the topic and emphasize several times that "Hunyadi was Romanian" make the article biased and exclusively present the Romanian viewpoint as fact, however the majority of Hungarian historiography say he was not Romanian. It is quite boring topic regarding John Hunyadi considers a great Hungarian hero and clearly a main character in Hungarian history and not in Romanian history.
John Hunyadi and his son King Matthias of Hungary played a great and very important role in the life of the Kingdom of Hungary. The father of John Hunyadi got a huge estate from King Sigismund of Hungary. The father of John Hunyadi was called Voyk, the pagan Turkic name of King Saint Stephen of Hungary was also Vajk 400 years earlier (perhaps he was also Romanian?). The mother of John Hunyadi was called Elizabeth a Catholic Hungarian name. The sister of John Hunyadi had also a Catholic Hungarian name. John Hunyadi was born and raised in the Kingdom of Hungary, Hunyadi became very quickly a high-ranked member of the court of King Sigismund of Hungary. King Sigismund entrusted the military upbringing of young John to his main confidant. King Sigismund took John Hunyadi with him everywhere in Europe and also to Italy for one of the most significant events of his life, in Rome at the Imperial Coronation. John Hunyadi married a Catholic Hungarian noblewoman, Hunyadi considered himself a Hungarian nobleman, lived and died in 1456 according to this. Hunyadi was a leading Hungarian military and political figure, Hunyadi was the Count of Székelys, Voivode of Transylvania (part of the Kingdom of Hungary). John Hunyadi was a great Hungarian warlord and sole regent with the title of governor of the Hungarian Kingdom. John Hunyadi had huge estates everywhere in the Kingdom of Hungary and used all his income to protect Hungary against the Ottomans.
At that time around 1400, Romanian etnicity or modern etnicities did not exist. It was several times discussed in the article. The article clearly say most contemporary sources claim that his father was a nobleman from Wallachia, which was presented in the article ("he was the member of a noble family of Wallachian ancestry") before you rewrote. All medieval countries very multiethnic, if somebody came from Wallachia (which was just before Cumania) it does not mean automatically that he was only "Romanian". The origin of the Hunyadi family is highly debated, there are many theories. Thúróczy Chronicle writes about Hunyadi as origin from "noble, famous family of Wallachia". Origin from the area is not the same as nationality. The region between the Southern Carpathians and the Lower Danube was at one time part of Etelköz, later a conflict zone between the Kingdom of Hungary and Byzantium, then the Ottoman Empire. In order to protect the southern territories of the Kingdom of Hungary, the area that has always been in focus was inhabited first by the Pechenegs, and then after 1055 by the Cuman-Pecheneg population, whose leading stratum was of Cuman origin. The name of Wallachia was Ungro-Wallachia in medieval times, i.e. Hungary-Wallachia, which had a Hungarian population until the 19th century. Family of Hunyadi was also Catholic while Romanians were Orthodox. For example King Béla III of Hungary from the Arpad dynasty called "Greek Béla", because he came from Constantinople as previous heir of the Byzantine empire, but he clearly was not a Greek.
Latest modern research: The genetic legacy of the Hunyadi descendants – Published: 16 November 2022:
(Published in Heliyon in open format to get available free for every researcher. Heliyon is a very prestigious Q1 ranked journal, a top ranked journal where only 17% of the articles are accepted.)
It is Hungarian video, the scholars, genetics, historians, who worked in the DNA study clearly say the Hungarian version of Hunyadi's origin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glNx8uuBgOI
Closest Y-chromosomal haplogroups samples around the world:
- Sample from the Otrar-Karatau culture of the Iron Age Kazakh steppe (245–343 AD) (Scythians).
- Sample from Medieval Sardinia (1300–1400 AD).
Closest Y-chromosomal haplogroups samples from the Carpathian Basin:
- Sample from an Avar person (650–675 AD) (Onogur, so-called "griffin and tendril" culture) (Székkutas-kápolnadűlő Avar cemetery).
- Sample from an elite Hungarian conqueror (895–950 AD) (Karos Hungarian conqueror cemetery) (This person had blue eyes and light hair. According to the contemporary paintings and descriptions, John Hunyadi and King Matthias have also blonde hair).
- Sample from a medieval Hungarian nobleman who was buried in the Hungarian Royal Basilica of Székesfehérvár.
Do you think, these samples above are Romanians? OrionNimrod (talk) 09:53, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Genetic background and ethnicity are different, so genetic studies cannot prove ethnicity. Could we deny that Stephen Báthory was of Hungarian ethnicity just because his ancestors had migrated from Germany to Hungary? Borsoka (talk) 10:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stephen Báthory lived 300 years later than the foundation of the Bathory family in Hungary, meantime the family intermarried with a lot of other Hungarian nobles, according to this we can say all people in Europe have 50 ethnicities because everybody has 1000 ancestors and all peoples are mixed during the centuries everywhere. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really suggest that those genetic studies established exact chronologies? Do those genetic studies established the date when Hunyadi's ancestors were Romanicised? What is for sure that his contemporaries and his son's court historian were well aware of the Vlach background of the family. They probably did not know that Hunyadi's blonde hair proved that Hunyadi was of pure Hungarian blood. Borsoka (talk) 11:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody talked about pure blood, that is why I do not understand that the Wallachian location why cannot be only pure Vlach blood? (Even I have a significant shared genomes with the Hunyadi family according to mytrueancestry) Anyway more origin theories already present in the article. Please listen the video made by the authors of the DNA study, modern historian also talks here, you know many Hungarian historians accept the Cuman origin, because the situation is very complex as I listed above many arguments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glNx8uuBgOI I think the genetic is not everything but it shows many things. (For example if somebody in the future made genetic test on Marthin Luther King it will shows that he cannot be Chinese)
Thuróczy says: "noble, famous family of Wallachia", and location also does not mean ethnictiy. You know well that region was multiethnic, and Wallachia was Cumania before, and Vlachs had Cuman leading elite in the beginning. Also you know the religion was more important in medieval times, and the Vlachs were Orthodox while Hunyadi was Catholic and his family used Catholic names. And what about the name of his father Vojk? It is Turkic origin name, King Stephen of Hungary 400 years earlier was used the same name. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And? His contemporaries knew that he was of Vlach origin. Their knowledge about Hunyadi's Vlach origin gave rise to the Corvinus name because Matthias' court historians wanted to link the family with the Corvini of Ancient Rome. Names do not always indicate ethnicity because they are heavily influenced by popularity. Are you sure that all girls called Mercedes are of Spanish ethnicity in Hungary? Borsoka (talk) 11:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
His contemporaries made many theories not only the Vlach one. I do not know what is the debate, because this was already in article: "According to most contemporary sources, he was the member of a noble family of Wallachianancestry." Why should we repeat this in every sentences in the lead? OrionNimrod (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In 2021, the largest genetic genealogy company in the world, Ancestry.com, based on more recent genetic findings placed Romania, Hungary and Slovakia in the Balkan DNA region: "Formally Romania and Hungary were not considered part of the region but they now are considered Balkan in terms of their DNA." Slovakia was also included in the Balkan DNA region: https://namecensus.com/blog/what-is-the-balkans-dna-ethnicity/
I agree with @Borsoka, ethnicity isn't the same as DNA but even the DNA findings say Hungarians are Balkanic DNA-wise. So I ask you, do you identify as a Balkan person? No? Well, as a Hungarian, your DNA says you are a Balkan person. Unless your parents are actually Germans or something. Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know what is the debate, because this was already in article: "According to most contemporary sources, he was the member of a noble family of Wallachianancestry." Why should we repeat this in every sentences in the lead? OrionNimrod (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, most people don't know Wallachian comes from Vlach and Vlach is an exonym for Romanians. Romanians call themselves Romanians, not Vlachs. So that's why. "Wallachian" is vague for a common person. Ninhursag3 (talk) 12:19, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Romanian is modern ethnicity. Vlach is more proper OrionNimrod (talk) 12:29, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The French were called "Franks", why don't historians call medieval French kings, Frank kings instead? Ninhursag3 (talk) 12:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Or why aren't historians calling English kings, Anglo-Saxon kings? Ninhursag3 (talk) 12:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Charles I of Hungary, was a member of the Capetian House of Anjou (French dynasty)and the only son of Charles Martel and Clemence of Austria.
Why is Charles I accepted as a king of Hungary, even if he had French and Austrian blood and it's offensive for Hungarians to think John Hunyadi was Romanian? Because his son, Matthias Corvinus was king of Hungary and the most popular Hungarian king?
Is it that to Hungarians Charles I of Hungary having mostly French and Austrian blood is fine by them but John Hunyadi having half or full Romanian blood and Matthias Corvinus having a quarter or half Romnian blood is not fine, it's undesirable for them? Ninhursag3 (talk) 12:18, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Charlemagne called Frank because it was the name in his time. I see Anglo-Saxon kings is a proper term [2] or Alfred the Great. Also Wallachian is linked as the contemporary source claimed. Btw Bonfini claimed 3 kind of origin as contemporary source from the court of Matthias, Bonfini also claimed together with other sources from Matthias' court that the Battle of Baia was Hungarian victory, however Romanian historiography say it was Moldavian victory.
All European royals were mixed blood everywhere. For example King Louis I from the Hungarian Anjou house had 2 bloodlines from Arpad dynasty both from his mother and from his father. Sigismund also had 3 bloodlines from the Arpad dynasty.
There was many popular kings in Hungary, not only Matthias. Majority of Hungarian historians refuse the Romanian origin and they state Cuman origin. This is not depend on me. I see [3] you made a "Romanian historial and military person" from a Hungarian historical character removing 2 links Hungary where he was actually the leading person: Hungarian nobleman with huge estates, warlord, chief leader of the army, governor, voivode, etc
I think it is good that we say what said the most contemporary source what is in the lead section and below we can present all theories of his origin, to present all viewpoints. Do you know the Serbs claim tha he was Serb? If you write Romanian in the lead it means that we ignore the Hungarian historiography regarding a historical Hungarian character, because majority of Hungarian historiography claim the Cuman origin (among others). OrionNimrod (talk) 13:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why arguing about Hunyadi's ethnicity is necessary. Primary sources don't give us a clear answer and secondary sources are conflicting. It should not be stated anywhere on Wikipedia that Hunyadi was Romanian, nor that he was Cuman or something else, because it violates neutrality. Gyalu22 (talk) 18:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Borsoka! About the "pure Hungarian blood", I talked with you several times, and you know I showed and said many things how complex the Hungarian genetic, it has many genetic components, so talking about "pure blood" is nonsense. My personal DNA has many genetic samples matches from many regions from many timelines and everybody else would have the same result. However the scholars can use the DNA science to learn better the history, if you and your parents one by one will make a DNA test in anonym way with different companies, the result will show that you are the same family, because genetic is math. For example "if" the 10 closest! matches to the Hunyadi DNA would be samples from a Hungarian cemetery from Buda from 1400, this would mean Hunyadi has probably Hungarian origin or "if" the 10 closest! matches to the Hunyadi DNA would be samples from a Romanian cemetery from Targoviste from 1400, this would mean Hunyadi has probably Romanian origin. Of course every people has shared genomes, but the tone is the "closest sample matches" which show us the close relatives. Not I, but in the above linked video the scholars explained the situation that according to the genetic result Hunyadi was not Romanian.
The genetic study showed that the closest samples to Hunyadi outside the Carpathian basin is a from the iron age Kazah steppe (Scythian) and from medieval Sardinia, while the closest samples to Hunyadi in the Carpathian Basin is from 1 Avar person, 1 Hungarian conqueror, 1 medieval Hungarian nobleman from the Szekesfehervar Basilica. Could you tell me if Hunyadi was Romanian, it means the Avar, Hungarian conqueror, Hungarian nobleman in Szekesfehervar could be Romanian too? Or do you have any explanation why not Romanian samples was the closest to Hunyadi?
I captured screenshots from MyTrueAncestry about the Hunyadi DNA, you can see the closest population and samples, I do not see any Romanian samples there. You can also see the closet ancient population is the Scythians+Visigoths to him, while the Romanians were never considered Scythians and Visigoths.
Here in the other DNA study [4] you can see Hungarian conqueror sample match (K2/6 E1b1b1a1b1a) has light/red hair [5]. This is aslo fact that in Hungary more people have lighter or blonde hair than in the territory of old Romania. And John Hunyadi was blonde according to the contemporary works: [6],4, his son Matthias also: 5,6,7 Bonfini who know personally Matthias: "his hair is golden".
This DNA research is quite fresh, I think the historians will use this data in their future works. OrionNimrod (talk) 13:13, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, ancestry and ethnicity are different. Queen Victoria had almost no British ancestor but she was undoubtedly British. Borsoka (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I see, Hunyadi was a Hungarian nobleman, but above I was talking about his ancestry, DNA shows the ancestry, and closer samples matches means closer ancestry. Like your personal DNA will be the closest to your family. So if he had allegedly Romanian ancestry, we should see this in the DNA, but instead of this we can see that the most closer samples to him from the Carpathian Basin: 1 Avar, 1 Hungarian conqueror, 1 medieval Hungarian nobleman from Szekesfehervar from Royal Basilica. Or do you think the Vlach/Romanian nobles from 1400 had Avar/Hungarian conqueror/Hungarian nobleman ancestry? (The average people in Budapest look different than the average people in Bucharest)
As I said this is quite fresh and I suppose the historians will use this in their works in the future. The purpose of the genetic test was mainly to find the bones of Matthias in Szekesfehervar. I think it would be good also to test the bones of the father of Sigismund in Prague. You can see average modern German genetic is close to the Hunyadi DNA. OrionNimrod (talk) 13:30, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are not here to present what we tbink historians will write, but to summarise what they wrote. All available primary sources suggest that the Vlach ancestry of John and Matthias was a well-known fact in the 15th century. Borsoka (talk) 14:13, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wallachian is a dated exonym of the endonym Romanian that is used in present-day[edit]
Hello, just wanted to add Romanian to Wallachianancestry, since Wallachian is a dated, historical exonym for Romanian. In the native Romanian language, Wallachia was called "Țara Românească" 'The Romanian Country'. Hope this context, adding Romanian in parenthesis will be allowed.
Thank you very much in advance, have a good day! Ninhursag3 (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the context, Wallachian refers to somebody who came from Wallachia. Borsoka (talk) 01:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The area was Cumania not so late before Hunyadi
Hi @Ninhursag3, modern nationalities and ethnicities are modern things and the medieval times were different. In that context, contemporary source writes about Hunyadi as origin from "noble, famous family of Wallachia", origin from the area is not the same as nationality. Do you say that everybody in Wallachia 600 years ago was only Romanian? Kingdom of Hungary was also multiethnic, and Romanians like to emphasize this. Double standard? Wallachia was a multi ethnic country also like many other medieval states, and the Wallachian nobility were Cuman origin. In order to protect the southern territories of the Kingdom of Hungary, the area that has always been in focus. The name of Wallachia was Ungro-Wallachia in medieval times, i.e. Hungary-Wallachia, which had a Hungarian population also. Family of Hunyadi was also Catholic while Romanians were Orthodox, mother of Hunyadi was Elizabeth a Catholic Hungarian name (Romanians do not use that name) his sister was Clara, again a Catholic name. There are many contemporary and modern theories about his origin, it is not correct to show just the Romanian theory as main theory as final truth in the lead, because most Hungarian historians refuse the Romanian origin, so I do not understand why Romanians want to supervise and overwrite the Hungarian historiography about a Hungarian historical character to rise their theory exclusively as main ultimate truth. Hunyadi considers a great Hungarian hero and clearly a main character in Hungarian history and not in Romanian history, as we can see his life in the article. The Romanian theory is already mentioned in the article, here also Hunyadi family.
Anyway could you tell me there is a "Hunyadi fetish" in Romania? I see in everywhere in the internet Romanian users always repeat or start to say "Hunyadi is Romanian", even if the topic is about foods or anything else. But after this I see they are unable to say any more thing about him, just this. Can you say more thing about him? Can you improve the article about any other thing what is relating to the life of Hunyadi?
Btw I see according to the 100 greatest Romanians TV show, Burebista and Decebalus was also "Romanian", I bet they did not know about this 2000 years ago, and in 1980 the national-communist Romanian state celebrated its 2050th anniversary...:)
According to the genetic test, (which is science) Hungarian scholars were confrimed that he was not Romanian. Closest modern population to Hunyadi family: German, Serbian, Hungarian, closest ancient population is Scythian and Visigoth. Closest archeo samples in the order according which is the most closest: first Scythian (Otyar - Kazah steppe), then medieval Sardinia, then Germany, England, Denmark, and from the Carpathian Basin: Hungarian (Hungarian nobleman, royal cancellaria basicilica), Avar, Hungarian conqueror, then ancient Tracian samples from the Balcan. Where are the Romanian sample matches? Or do you think the Romanian nobles from 1400 had Avar/Hungarian conqueror/Hungarian nobleman ancestry? OrionNimrod (talk) 09:36, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can imagine without difficulty that an ethnic Romanian individual had no Romanian ancestry. For instance, Queen Victoria was British although her ancestors were ethnic Germans. Genetics cannot determine ethnicity but ancestry. Borsoka (talk) 10:25, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is agreed that Hunyadi was of Wallachian ancestry, but only in regional sense. Wallachia wasn't an ethnographically homogeneous country, and there's no scholarly agreement on what folk there he ascended from. Gyalu22 (talk) 17:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're just hating that John Hunyadi was Romanian/Vlach, because he was a very important figure in Hungarian history. And as we all know, Hungarians are very antagonistic against Romanians. You have no way to prove that John Hunyadi wasn't Vlach/Romanian. Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
John Hunyadi is commonly called Iancu by Romanians, and I think the Romanian version of his name should be written as Ioan/Iancu de Hunedoara. LaszloKov (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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