Talk:Arturo Toscanini

Untitled

Someone remove the chick pic in the "Toscanini in Time" area and replace it with the real cover of the magazine please.

Camebert, if you read the historical record of the time, it was in fact precisely those very conductors like Bruno Walter who regarded Toscanini so highly, thought of him as a god among their midst. But ok, I am not trying to push the point; we can leave the line as is. Anyway, I hope to add more objective biographical info to this article in due time. -- Viajero 20:49 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I know that he was very highly regarded, but I don't think that everybody thought he was the very best. To say he was regarded as "the greatest" without qualification is a bit misleading, I think. --Camembert

I realize that; that's why I presented it -- rightly or wrongly -- as the POV of his contemporaries. But to sustain it would take more effort than I prepared to do at the moment. -- Viajero 13:13 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What I mean is that not all his contemporaries thought he was the greatest. Maybe "regarded by many of his contemporaries as the greatest" is more to the point than "regarded by his contemporaries as one of the greatest". Anyway, I'm splitting hairs here, I agree it's not really a big deal. --Camembert

This page is too long, I don't think Wikipedia is "elitist".

I am interested that Bruno Walter would think highly of Toscanini. That is high praise indeed. I have the greatest regard for Bruno Walter. I thought that Toscanini was regarded by some (many?) in the contemporary musical community as a bit of a showman and also a lightweight. Wallie 20:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Bruno Walter and Toscanini were very good friends. On August 22, 1939, it was Toscanini who informed Walter that his daughter Gretel had been shot by her estranged husband, and Toscanini conducted the concert replacing Walter. They remained friends until Toscanini's death.kosboot 21:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

"Famed for his restless perfectionism....." I don't see anything wrong with listing some of the qualities that Toscanini was famous for, such as stating that he was well known for his perfectionism. However by adding adjectives like "restless" before each of these qualities you add a degree of poetic/subjective hero-worship which is out of place in a wikipedia entry. Many people would have thought a perfectionist but very few would have known if he was restless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.100.19 (talk) 23:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Toscanini and Mussolini

Toscanini, whose father fought in Garibaldi's army, was a lifeling opponent of Fascism--and had socialist leanings. As recounted in Harvey Sachs' suberb biography, Toscanini lent support to Mussolini when the latter advocated a socialist platform. But when Mussolini began to endorse fascism, Toscanini withdrew his support. [THD3]

Expand

This article is a good start, but Toscanini was a very important figure in music, and more should be said. Also, he was not without his critics, as I understand it. This article says nothing about that. --rogerd 13:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It does now; read the section "Toscanini and the Critics". AlbertSM 17:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Rudeness

I understand he was incredibly rude to his NBC players, sometimes telling them they played like farmyard animals, and accusing their mothers of gross sexual perversions. This seems to be a significant aspect of the whole person, despite his wonderful music making. Are there are any decent references to this outrageous behaviour? JackofOz 11:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

All of the surviving eyewitness accounts report that Toscanini was a perfectionist and that he had quite a temper. However, he was hardest on himself and recognized there were times when he didn't do his best. He expected his musicians to play their best and if, in his opinion, they didn't, he would tell them. Since English was his second language, he often resorted to Italian, as we can hear in the surviving recordings of his rehearsals. Harvey Sachs writes of a time when Toscanini made a serious mistake in his conducting and the orchestra played correctly despite this; when Toscanini realized that HE had been wrong and the orchestra had been correct, he didn't hesitate to compliment them. There were many times when he didn't get angry, too, because the orchestra played very well, especially the BBC Symphony Orchestra. He also sometimes recognized that an orchestra he was conducting WAS playing its best, even if it wasn't up to his standards, and he would tolerate their playing without getting angry. Sallyrob 18:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If he was so rude, there were very few musicians who said so. Most orchestral musicians loved him - whether it was NBC Orchestra, Philadelphia Orchestra, BBC Orchestra, NY Philharmonic, Lucerne Orchestra, etc. Kosboot 02:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Toscanini was demanding, no doubt, and he certainly had a temper. But most musicians understood it was a result of his artistic integrity. One NBC player commented that when "all hell would break loose" it was "not without justification". THD3 02:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I have a clear recollection of a BBC program about great conductors and their foibles, where the claimed words came from ("they played like farmyard animals, and accusing their mothers of gross sexual perversions"). But I can't find anything about this on the web. A bit about his temper, though: "Toscanini's behavior would nowadays send him to jail or to Anger Management classes" ([1]), so it seems he did step over the line, badly. JackofOz 05:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It is very easy to focus on Toscanini's notorious temper and say that he behaved horribly at times, particularly when he insulted the musicians. However, the evidence is strong that Toscanini was no different than many other conductors of his generation; some of the most notorious but still gifted conductors included George Szell and Fritz Reiner, both friends and admirers of Toscanini, who often resorted to biting sarcasm when they were not yelling at their musicians. Perhaps today conductors are less likely to behave this way because it is "politically incorrect" or otherwise inappropriate. A good example of a very fine contemporary conductor whose temper got him into trouble with management, after the musicians complained, is Charles Dutoit, the former music director of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra. Sallyrob 17:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

His behavior is probably considered more outrageous today than it was sixty or more years ago. There were no "pyshological categories" such as "verbal abuse" and "physical abuse" back then, and political correctness did not exist. Verbal abuse was probably considered just one more way to get perfect results out of somebody, and it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to sue a person over it. AlbertSM 18:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Donald Vroon, the editor of American Record Guide described him as follows: "I have always heard in the music what I am finding out from the books: the man was a tyrant who beat his musicians with insults and temper tantrums. He never smiled when conducting (not even in rehearsals!) never thanked or complimented his men, never made them feel they were valuable partners or had even done a creditable job. He would fail to give them cues, then blame them with curses and insults for needing them! Besides being a compulsive perfectionist, he was childish, petulant, inconsiderate, monomaniacal, and monstrously self-centered. His technique was fear, and I always heard that fear in his music...Reading about him - especially books by people who worked with him - strongly confirmed what I had felt in my bones" From Vroon's foreword to The mystery of Leopold Stokowski, By William Ander Smith, Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press, 1990, ISBN 0838633625 D7240 (talk) 22:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Stereophonic recordings

Music and Arts recently released the stereo recording of Toscanini's penultimate concert (Rossini's Barber of Seville overture and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony). The recording of his last concert, also in stereo has been available for years. It is my understanding that several versions of this last concert exist. The discoordination in the orchestra resulting from Toscanini's memory lapse during the Tannhauser Baccanale is very noticeable in the unedited version. THD3 23:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC) The stereo sound in the Toscanini recordings is not as spacious as the "Living Stereo" sessions which RCA Victor began to make that same year; nevertheless, it still has greater fidelity than his monaural high fidelity recordings in the 1950s. Sallyrob 19:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

For a Wikipedia article, this seems like an extremely minor point, unless the article expands to have a section devoted to details about Toscanini's recordings. But it does show a bias that many people today have -- that they think of Toscanini mostly as a "recording artist" rather than a musician. In other words, the focus is on his recordings, not on his musical abilities. kosboot 21:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

In liner notes from one of Toscanini's album, RCA Victor once lamented the fact that Toscanini had made NO stereophonic recordings. This came when RCA began releasing some of Toscanini's recordings in electronic stereo, a process which artificially tried to create the effect of stereo. Actually, Toscanini had not made any commercial recordings in stereo; it was just incidental that his last two broadcast concerts, as well as the rehearsals, were taped both in mono and stereo. As it was, he refused to approve the release of these performances. For those of us who never saw Toscanini in person, the recordings, as well as the movie Hymn of the Nation and the videos of his 10 televised concerts, are the only way we can hear and see what Toscanini was like as a conductor. In recent years, greater effort has been made to get the best possible results from the aging tapes and transcriptions which have survived. In some of the Amazon reviews, younger listeners have complained about the sound of his recordings. However, the later recordings probably have sound that is typical of the early 1950s and, thanks to digital remastering, we are hearing more than most people heard on the original LPs released by RCA Victor. Today marks the 50th anniversary of Toscanini's death and it is appropriate to remember Toscanini's legacy, which can only be appreciated by most of us through the surviving recordings. I am fortunate to have met a few people who knew or saw Toscanini and they all agreed that he was the greatest of all the conductors who lived in the first half of the twentieth century. Sallyrob 17:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

This page is being spammed and changed, perhaps it should be protectedNordicSkier 02:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"In his will, he left his bâton to his protégée Herva Nelli." This may be true but Herva Nelli was a soprano who sang often with him as, for example, in his recording of "Aida". She was also his mistress.

His "protégée" was actually the conductor Guido Cantelli and I wonder if Toscanini, more logically, would have left his baton to him. I'm aware that Cantelli died in a plane crash less than two months before Toscanini's death but T. was never told about this for fear it would have killed him.

I would either eliminate this sentence or check it for the facts.Ed 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 20:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

All of the Toscanini photos in this article are taken from RCA Victor albums. These photos have been widely circulated and it may be simply necessary to give proper credit to the photographer, whose work has been used from the LPs in the 1950s throught the CDs released in 1990. 72.37.171.52 (talk) 19:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

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Final years section

It says that his last two last two NBC broadcast concerts were recorded in stereophonic sound, but the last time he conducted was in 1954 and he died before stereo was widely used. It is possible that he recorded in stereo, but highly unlikely.
NewYork1956 (talk) 08:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I saw the discussion above just now.
NewYork1956 (talk) 08:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

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Greatest Recordings

Who says these are his greatest recordings? Seems kind of POV. Maybe cite, or else change to "Selected Recordings". --Thegooseking (talk) 23:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

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It meets these criteria. Markhh (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Toscanini and the original NBC Peacock?

Can anyone definitively say if Toscanini conducted the NBC Orchestra for the original NBC Peacock? It was originally aired January 1st, 1954 for the Tournament of Roses Parade. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF0vt5pUQ1w History: http://www.big13.net/NBC%20Peacock/NBCPeacock1.htm --message posted 15:54, March 7, 2011 by Discpad (talk)

• According to your source, the first peacock was introduced in 1956, after Toscanini had retired. The 1954 logo was a color version of the NBC 3-note Chime. Regardless, it is very unlikely that Toscanini ever conducted any kind of commercial intros or logo soundtracks for NBC. They had plenty of staff musicians who would have done that. Toscanini would never have recorded anything except his concerts (rehearsals and broadcasts) and the NBCSO RCA Red Seal label recordings. Cheers, Markhh (talk) 23:43, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Women pianists: Dorfmann and Hess

Is it true that the only 2 women pianists Toscanini ever conducted for were Ania Dorfmann and Dame Myra Hess?

Many sources I found when researching Dorfmann say she was the only one who played under him at all, ever (they played all 5 Beethoven concertos, the Triple Concerto and the Choral Fantasy, and made a studio recording of the 1st Piano Concerto), but I tracked down a single concert with Myra Hess in 1946. Even so, it seems remarkably light on.

Did he have a problem with women pianists, or was it just the prevailing attitudes? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

There were not that many women pianists in the United States at that time. -- kosboot (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

bias

I'm bothered by the excessively heavy slant of the article towards recordings. So much of this article seems to be about his recorded legacy (read: fetishism) and not about the person or his conducting. -- kosboot (talk) 14:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Toscanini and Flagstad

I'm moving the comments on Toscanini, Flagstad, Melchior, and Traubel to the the talk page, where it belongs. I'm pasting it in verbatim:

(This preceding statement is not accurate. Flagstad was urged to remain in America for the duration of WWII but felt compelled to be re-united with her husband, allegedly a Nazi collaborator. It was only after war that Flagstad was "blacklisted" by the (mainly Jewish) board of the Metropolitan Opera and especially by columnist Walter Winchell. In fact, Flagstad had absolutely no pro-German and more especially pro-Nazi leanings and repeatedly refused to sing for the Germans - in itself a heroic act - during the occupation of Norway. Helen Traubel "filled-in" for Flagstad during the latter's long absence from the U.S. This is the reason why Toscanini became associated with her, not because of any supposedly pro-German sentiments on Flagstad's part which, as stated above, only surfaced after the war.)

"Mainly Jewish" board of the Met in the late 1940s? I find that a atrocious comment - 19:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Balance

I've no doubt many will disagree, but to me, this article seems to be more about Toscanini's late recordings than about Toscanini himself or his historical context. Perhaps the recordings section could be forked eventually, and more information about his life be provided. - kosboot (talk) 19:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. article could be called AT and the NBC Symphony. His long tenure at the NY Philharmonic is not even mentioned outside of the lead para, and his years at the Met Opera are given one sentence. Markhh (talk) 18:29, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

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NBC Symphony not created for Toscanini

I will leave it to someone else to correct the record but modern research shows that the NBC Symphony did not originate with Toscanini and was not "created" for him

https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/why-did-arturo-toscanini-come-to-nbc/

"...Possibly the most amazing part of this very long dissertation is the revelation that there was an NBC Symphony well before Toscanini came to the network, that this NBC Symphony participated (even during Toscanini’s tenure) on other arts programs such as the Magic Key broadcasts as well as The Voice of Firestone and other programs featuring opera and concert singers, in addition to Walter Damrosch’s musical education shows and a ton of other programming."

--23.119.204.117 (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

All major radio stations had resident orchestras who would play music or filler on broadcasts. This includes NBC. It's been well-documented that the players of the NBC Symphony Orchestra were specifically auditioned for the orchestra Toscanini was to conduct. One would need more verification than a blog post - see WP:SOURCES. -- kosboot (talk) 22:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

When did he leave Italy? 1931 or 1939?

This article says he only left Italy at the outbreak of WWII

However your article on la Giovinezza says

" Finally, Toscanini refused to conduct "Giovinezza" at a May 1931 concert in Bologna, was subsequently roughed up by a group of blackshirts, and thereafter left Italy until after World War II.[1][31]"

Which is it?

Greatest Conductors of the 20th Century

It's common in the English speaking world to adopt a more measured tone toward Southern Europeans when it comes to their achievements, in comparison to their Northern counterparts. At one point the introductory passage asserted that Toscanini was one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century; now it asserts something more toned down i.e. "most acclaimed." Just out of curiosity, I went to von Karajan's page, and lo it says "generally regarded as one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century." As it should say in Toscanini's opening paragraph. If anything, Toscanini was greater than von Karajan, by most measures. This is not an isolated instance either. The same used to be asserted of Michelangelo, and was edited to a toned down version. I go on Rembrandt's page, and lo, it asserts "one of the greatest artists ...history... blah blah blah". Rembrandt is a dwarf compared to Michelangelo, who is a Titan in the literal Greek sense of the word; an unparalleled artistic genius. These biases are probably unconscious by the majority Northern European descent folks who write these articles, but you may like someone to point out that they're there.

It's just bunch of Northerners hyping up their own kind. One can let the kin-selective imperative pass here and there, but not to such a systematic degree. Put those phrases back to these titans of Western culture. 67.71.31.191 (talk) 03:24, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Toscanini conducted in the front lines of World War I

In August 1917, Toscanini conducted a military band atop Monte Santo, recently captured from the Austro-Hungarians by Italian troops. For this he was decorated a few days later by General Capello with the Silver Medal for Valour. Seems worth adding a couple sentences about this to the article. Potential sources:

• http://archives.nypl.org/uploads/collection/pdf_finding_aid/JPB_90-1_Series_L-R.pdf
• https://books.google.com/books?id=L-5EQ-CbHcMC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93
• http://www.triestemusei.com/2014/11/toscanini-sul-monte-santo-nel-1917.html
• https://www.ilgazzettino.it/nordest/udine/mostra_gorizia_isonzo_piave_1917_2017_dopo_caporetto_guerra_continua-2385359.html

--Worldbruce (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

section personal life / Wanda

The lemma says Then, that same year (1906), Carla gave birth to their second daughter, Wanda.

The article Wanda Toscanini Horowitz says

(December 7, 1907, Milan, Italy, – August 21, 1998).

Español, Français, Português ... 1907 (which does not mean much - maybe they have be translated from here). LDV-GS (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Photo of Toscanini

As per my previous edit, there’s no way that that photo shows Toscanini at the advanced age of 83. He’s clearly much younger in it. I appreciate that the photo is from a 1950 concert flyer, but that hardly means the photo is from the same time. Best option would surely be to remove the date as it lacks credibility. Paulito (talk) 01:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

My guess is that the photo dates closer to 1938, but unfortunately I cannot impart information based on my intuition. All we can go on is with the information provided by the source in my collection, which is 1950. There is no further clarification or detail about the image. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

My guess would be early 1940s. When he started with NBC (1937) he still had traces of hair color. This pic looks closer to the time of Hymn of the Nations in 1943. But these are all suppositions which of course can't be used on WP. Could one say "circa 1940s" ? - kosboot (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Just for clarity's sake, I'm not disputing any edit to change the dating of the photo. My only concern was to remain faithful to the document it was scanned from. Because it was evident that the photo wasn't taken in 1950, I indicated "circa" as this permitted a bit of wiggle room without straying far from the source. However, if a bolder edit is necessary, I'll be A-OK with that too. Thanks! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)