Talk:Ordinance (Latter Day Saints)

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Untitled[edit]

It would be good if this article would cover the relationship between the Mormon conception of "ordinance", and the concept of "sacrament" in some other Christian denominations. Are ordinances and sacraments two different words for the same thing, or does the difference in terminology reflect an underlying conceptual difference? -- samuel katinsky — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.111.13.34 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 16 March 2005‎

Covered in Sacrament#The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) & Sacrament (LDS Church). -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Secrecy Concerns[edit]

I think it's a little troubling that these pages about LDS temples don't include references to criticisms of the closed nature of temples and the concerns about the secrecy of what exactly is happening inside. Right now, the articles read as a little bit biased in favor of the church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.253.18.168 (talk) 02:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What happens in temples is not secret. It's sacred. And the temples are not "closed". There's a HUGE difference. Anyone who qualifies as worthy to enter the temples can find out what goes on in them. The articles are not biased in favor of the Church. Groups of editors work together to ensure that a neutral point of view is achieved. If you have any specific concerns, please state them. If not, then it's pointless to suggest the degree of criticism you are recommending, as this would violate the above WP policies. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So true. Wikipedia can be both accurate and fair. Correct information is instructive. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ordinances listed in article[edit]

I noticed in the article some things listed as ordinances which may not make the cut. In particular, calling; sustaining; and fellowship. These things are routine and done as part of governance in the church, but I don't understand that they merit the word "ordinance." Handbook 2, 20.1, says an "ordinance is a sacred act, such as baptism, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood." I don't understand that people are called or sustained with an invocation of priesthood authority; while the people who initiate these acts always hold the priesthood, I don't find it a function or expression of the priesthood. In the manual Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood (http://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-4-the-purpose-of-priesthood-ordinances), only 6 non-saving ordinances are mentioned: 1. Naming and blessing of children, 2. Administering to the sick, 3. Patriarchal blessings, 4. Father’s blessings, 5. Blessings of guidance and comfort, 6. Dedication of graves. I don't find place for the three I previously mentioned. Slb1900 (talk) 05:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Latter Day Saint movement is wider then the LDS Church, and there are differing definitions of ordnance between the various constituent denominations. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good observation (and I actually didn't notice this is a Latter Day Saint article until you mentioned it, thank you), but the sections I refer to are focused specifically on the LDS Church. I still feel there's some validity to the question. Slb1900 (talk) 17:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Within the LDS Church, the Handbook and other current manuals are not exhaustive, and generally only enumerate non-saving ordinances that have special forms or wording that must be observed. Some ordinances (such as temple ones) are not described in detail in those sources due to their sacredness & non-public nature; others are considered so simple (such as sustainings) that information about them is generally conveyed outside of the Mormon corridor when needed thru less formal means (such as via Stake, Area, and worldwide leadership training meetings), and within areas of traditional Mormon strength are communicated often thru emulation of multi-generational member behavior (Pres. Packer explained this in a talk that I can look up if you're interested). Also keep in mind that what a member of the LDS Church might see as "routine and done as part of governance in the church" can instead be seen as ritualistic (or, in other words, as an ordinance in LDS parlance) from the standpoint of Mormon studies &/or by those outside of the faith. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 17:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since I believe the question could come up later, it might be good to have Pres. Packer's talk linked here, if you could. Slb1900 (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll look for it and post it. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like I remembered this a bit wrong, as the address was not in conference. See: Boyd K. Packer (October 15, 1996), "The Unwritten Order of Things", BYU Devotional Address, Marriott Center, The things I am going to tell you are not explained in our handbooks or manuals either. ... I will be speaking about what I call the 'unwritten order of things.' My lesson might be entitled 'The Ordinary Things about the Church Which Every Member Should Know.' Although they are very ordinary things, they are, nevertheless, very important! We somehow assume that everybody knows all the ordinary things already. If you do know them, you must have learned them through observation and experience, for they are not written anywhere and they are not taught in classes.{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LDS POV[edit]

I think this page has a massive LDS Church POV. For example, instead of explaining what the "Ordination to the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods" is, it gives the LDS Church's requirements to be a priesthood, and completely ignores the Patriarchal priesthood (justification for Lineal succession (Mormonism) in many sects) and the fact that some sects allow women into the priesthood. Since this is a page is the 'General Latter Day Saint Ordinance topic it need a massive rewrite to better generalize the topic and move away from a LDS Church specific topic.

I have attempted to do so at User:ARTEST4ECHO/sandbox. However, I admit I do not know this topic that well. Mostly what I did was take the definitions from the pages on these topics and put them into the list (i.e. remove the requirements and entered a description).

Before, I make such major changes it would be nice to get some input from others, so that things I missed can be corrected. --- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 16:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another possibility that may more easily solve the problem is to move this page to Ordinance (LDS Church) and summarize the LDS position on this page with a short blurb while listing other Latter Day Saint denominations that perform ordinances. As to content about specific denominations in the Latter Day Saint movement, I am not well versed in such things and will thus defer to someone with more experience in those matters. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of that also. However, I think it would probably be better to have two pages like Quorum of the Twelve and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church). There is alot of information on ordinances that some sect still use, that the LDS Church dosn't and ordinances from Smiths time, what are no longer done by anyone. I will work on a separate Ordinance (LDS Church) page.--- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 13:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have created an LDS specific version at User:ARTEST4ECHO/sandbox2.--- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 17:40, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated the separate page for deletion as it largely duplicates this one. The differences are too subtle for the average reader; if the texts were combined there would be less duplication and the differences would be better defined. RichardOSmith (talk) 19:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you. There are major difference between the two that you don't seem to understand, per MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS. There are hundreds of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement and this page has to be a more generalized version of compared to the LDS Church. This is no different the First Presidency (LDS Church) vs. First Presidency (Community of Christ) vs First Presidency and Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) vs Priesthood (LDS Church) vs Priesthood (Community of Christ).

While there are similarities, there are some very very important distinctions that you may or may not understand unless you understand MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS. As time goes by these two pages will also diverge even more, as there are ordinances that some sects practice that are not included yet are added.--- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 19:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are right - I am not familiar with the subject. And that's exactly the problem - there are two very similar pages which to the casual reader look pretty much the same. You seem to be telling me that the page is only useful to someone who knows the subject already. If the distinction is important, make it obvious by stating the differences on the same page - don't make the reader look for it. RichardOSmith (talk) 19:26, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying that the similarities are only obvious to those that know this subject. I'm saying that while there are some similarities, there are MAJOR distinctions. If you read above at Ordinances listed in article you will see these distinctions has been an issue for quite some time (March 2014), and this is the way MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS has laid out for this kind of thing.

For example, in the "Temple ordinances" section. It covers the fact that some sects do not practice these at all, it also covers ordinance that he LDS Church doesn't. It will also cover ordinance that only sects like Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) practice.

Another example: The inclusion of the 3rd Priesthood (the Patriarchal priesthood) justification for Lineal succession (Mormonism) in many sects, but wholly rejected by the LDS Church, Ordinance (LDS Church) only list two priesthoods.

Another example: The non-saving ordinances includes information that some sects never practices these. The LDS Church page doesn't include this information.

The LDS Church page has a section on ordinances that it did practice, but now doesn't.

This is the method that MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS has laid out for this kind of thing. I realize you don't agree, but I feel that there are enough differences that this split is justified. --- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 19:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For another example see Sacrament (Community of Christ). The Community of Christ calls its Ordinances "Sacraments". So the 2nd largest sect in the Latter Day saint movement already has a page similar to Ordinance (LDS Church), because Ordinance (Latter Day Saints) has alot of information unrelated to the Community of Christ, just like the Ordinance (LDS Church) page for the LDS Church.--- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 22:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ambiguity is Difficult to Process[edit]

It would appear that this page's primary purpose is to be a summary of specific information relating to any or all the orginaizations in the Latter Day Saint movement. In that regard, it should list nothing that isn't specifically dealt with on another, more detailed page. As I read the list I found that I could not regularly distinguish between how one organization used the "ordinance" vs. another --- if at all. While obviously fairly LDS-specific, the page has been written to be so devoid of sect-specific interpretation that the page is disinformative. In other words, if a teen from the LDS religion visited this page, they would come away with a *very* incorrect belief about what are, and are not, ordinances in their own faith and little insight into what are or are not in the other organizations. It's difficult for me to not recommend the page be discontinued as the the most fundamental question, "what is an ordinance?" has not been sufficiently addressed (In the LDS Church, there's no such thing as a "non-saving ordinance."). At best this page should be titled, "Rituals" as the LDS Church (at least) sees a substantial difference between blessings (e.g., patriarchical b. or b. of healing), rituals (the Hosanna Shout), and ordiances. If we don't know what each organization considers an "ordinance," how can we then describe them? If saving this page (which should only be a summary of more detailed information elsewhere) is important to the lds movement, then I would begin by creating separate lists of "ordinances" by organization rather than one large misleading list that trys to be everything to everyone. (And believe me, "Fellowship" is not an ordinance in the LDS Church. It doesn't even have anything to do with the Law of Common Consent (D&C 26:2) other than to conveniently borrow the action of raising one's right hand to acknowledge the fact that someone has moved into the congregation.)JBH (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]