Talk:Hail to the Thief

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Good articleHail to the Thief has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 11, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
July 6, 2012Good article nomineeListed
September 25, 2013Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Good article

Could we get this article to FA?[edit]

I'm sure anyone who watches this article will have noticed how much I've screwed around with it over the past year. I'm kind of tired of working alone on it, not because I'm feeling bitter or whatever(!), but because I'm worried it's becoming too "me". I'd really appreciate it if some other editors could weigh in about what they think the article is missing or could be improved on. In particular it'd be great if someone else could expand the commercial response section as digging through stats and numbers isn't really my forte - I'm more of a "digging through interviews" man.

It's already a GA, but I'm wondering if we could get it to FA status. Is there anyone out there? Popcornduff (talk) 20:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization of "The"[edit]

@Popcornduff - According to the Manual of Style official names such as The Guardian should be quoted exactly according to common usage. I was wrong about the Beatles though (see here). I hope that clears things up. Regards, nagualdesign (talk) 20:41, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I know - but I was hoping you wouldn't. Touche. Sigh. Popcornduff (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2014 (UTC
As an aside, this drives me mental. Wikipedia has decided, after endless debate, that it should be the Beatles and not The Beatles, but haven't adopted this as a universal rule for all bands with "the". Meanwhile, the Beatles' Wikipedia page is named the Beatles, but the Spice Girls' is Spice Girls. Why?
By the way... I can't find anything specific that would cover newspaper names in the manual of style. Care to point something out? If we're going by common usage, the Guardian itself specifies in its own manual of style that it uses a lowercase the. Popcornduff (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that the Beatles always used "the" (capitalization notwithstanding), whereas the Spice Girls never used "the". The album art seems to confirm that. Mostly. I'm still confused as to whether we link to the Beatles or to the Beatles though. I prefer the latter.
As for the rules on capitalization, The Guardian doesn't come under the music category, which would have allowed a lower-case t. And the name of the newspaper (ie, common usage) includes "the", so MoS/Capital letters applies. The fact the The Guardian itself adopts a lower-case t (or even a lower-case g wherever they wish) in accordance with their own MoS is moot, because Wikipedia has developed its own style. Consistency is key here, as you know.
Sorry to piddle on your party, slightly. I see you on my watchlist doing a lot of good edits to music articles. Please, carry on. :-) nagualdesign (talk) 01:15, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To put it more simply, if official names and so forth commonly use "the" as part of their name, we reflect that when naming articles, and capitalize the T even when writing prose. The only exception is the use of a lower-case t for the names of a bands, etc. within prose. We don't drop "The" from article titles though. At least that's how I understand it. Clear as mud? nagualdesign (talk) 01:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll discuss this a bit further because I think it interesting - I'm not going to change anything in the article. Feel free to get bored and wander off at any point.
"I guess that the Beatles always used "the" (capitalization notwithstanding), whereas the Spice Girls never used "the"."
Caring about how the name appears on the album art is dubious to me, because album art can stylise band names in all kinds of mad ways. The common usage is overwhelmingly "the Spice Girls", and that's even reflected in the prose of the Wikipedia article. Also, if we're going to pay attention to how the band or thing itself refers to itself, and decide rules on a case-by-case basis - for example taking heed of album art or letters or things written by the band members, as were actually used to argue "the Beatles vs The Beatles" - then why isn't the Guardian's own opinion on how to capitalise its name relevant?
"I'm still confused as to whether we link to the Beatles or to the Beatles though. I prefer the latter."
Agreed, gotta be the latter, just like linking to the White House.
"To put it more simply, if official names and so forth commonly use "the" as part of their name, we reflect that when naming articles, and capitalize the T even when writing prose. The only I exception is the use of a lower-case t for the names of a bands, etc. within prose. We don't drop "The" from article titles though."
What I don't get about this is how capitalising the Spice Girls or the Guardian or the White House are grammatically any different. You visit Italy, you listen to U2; but you visit the White House, and you listen to the Beatles. I would prefer to only capitalise "The" if it were part of a title of a work: eg The Hunger Games. Why does Wikipedia make an exception (and only inconsistently) for band names but not newspapers, or anything else? Popcornduff (talk) 14:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I hear what you're saying. Some of these rules seem arbitrary, but such is language. I guess you have to consider common usage within prose and common usage without prose separately. To me, White House seems an odd article title, but then we do say "a White House official" and suchlike (no "the"). I assume that other Wikignomes have looked at chart listings and found that the Spice Girls were just named "Spice Girls". Anecdotally, that's often the case with quiz show answers. They use "Spice Girls" without the "The". It always looks odd when a group you've only ever heard being called, say, the Kaiser Chiefs turns out to be just called Kaiser Chiefs (with seemingly everybody else but you having agreed this overnight). I feel your pain, buddy. I'd recommend sticking some music on and forgetting about it. ;-D nagualdesign (talk) 19:09, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
..Scratch what I said about quiz shows. I just watched Pointless and they had "Mamas & the Papas" as an answer! :-( nagualdesign (talk) 20:26, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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2008 track list[edit]

It's been 15 years now and the 2008 track list still isn't in the article, for some reason. I'm planning to add it into the article but I want to ask here not just to prevent any conflict, but also to ask if the NME source is enough.

For relevance's sake, here's a screenshot of Yorke's post on W.A.S.T.E. Headquarters, as seen on reddit. Carlinal (talk) 05:11, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is already covered in the article: "In 2008, Yorke posted an alternative track listing on Radiohead's website, omitting "Backdrifts", "We Suck Young Blood", "I Will" and "A Punchup at a Wedding".
We don't need to include the full tracklist in the article — that would be overkill. Popcornfud (talk) 08:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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