Talk:Herm

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Good articleHerm has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 20, 2014Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 30, 2014.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the 1.5-mile (2.4 km) long island of Herm (flag pictured) has up to 100,000 tourists pass through it in summer?

Untitled[edit]

1 and a half miles long but how wide is it? do you know?

Less than 1.5 miles? user:sjc
Now answered in the article. As the old joke runs:
And the other interesting thing about this yacht is that it sails sideways!
-- Alan Peakall 13:49 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

Picture needed[edit]

This article needs a picture --AW 19:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are now three. -- Editor at Large • talk 22:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong map[edit]

The map in this article's infobox is labeled to show the location of Guernsey, but the article is about Herm. The map needs to be corrected to show where Herm is; if a reader wanted to know where Guernsey is he or she would more likely look in the Guernsey article than in the Herm article.

I realize that a map later in the article shows where Herm is in relation to Guernsey, but many readers look to the infobox first and may never read the whole article. If there is a map in the infobox, it should be relevant to the specific subject of the article, and this one is not. Maybe the map later in the article should just be moved into the infobox. Many infoboxes include two or maybe even more maps, especially when the subject (like Herm) is small and needs maps with more than one level of detail to show exactly where in the world it is.--Jim10701 (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This one perhaps? File:Channel Islands - Herm.PNG Man vyi (talk) 08:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Transport - what about trikes?[edit]

As in the Sark article, no mention is made re the legality or otherwise of tricycles - a significant omission?--46.65.8.42 (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No - not significant. Tricycles are hardly a popular means of transport, lovely though they doubtless are for those who use them. The omission is no more or less significant than the similar omission of unicycles. However, I think we may assume that if bicycles are banned on Herm, then so are unicycles, tandems, tricycles, and other similar vehicles. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 12:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure one should tar all cyclistic vehicles with the same brush. Consider the vulnerable virgin sward that is Herm, then a bicycle, a unicycle and a tricycle. Then picture a fool, an idiot and a naturalist. Which belongs with which?--46.65.8.106 (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your question is not valid for this project. Herm does not allow cyclists, so we report the fact. The philosophy of cycling, and the psychology of cyclists (that's unicyclists, bicyclists, and tricyclists) is for another forum. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 10:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the readers are more interested in the precise legal position regarding these vehicles than your POV.--109.156.16.44 (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update[edit]

I know that this article has few, if any, regular editors, but I thought I would let people know that I am trying to get the article to GA, and am sourcing, then expanding, here, in my sandbox. Please feel free to edit it and help, I will start moving it into the article section by section when I feel it is ready. Thanks, Matty.007 17:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

Note: I, Matty.007, copied the below from my sandbox draft after I asked MusikAnimal to have a look at it.

  • I noticed there are several very short, some one-sentenced paragraphs. You should try to solidify them into paragraphs and make them flow with prose. See MOS:PARAGRAPHS for more info. Similarly, while it may seem to help with navigation, very short sections are not preferred (MOS:BODY). Basically it's all about prose (at least in my mind). I've always found WP:BETTER to be a great resource for how to improve articles. I should also note a lot of this stuff may go beyond GA standards, and I'm admittedly picky when I do my reviews, maybe too much. Hope this helps! — MusikAnimal talk 19:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I have had a fix of some of (what I think) what were the worst culprits. Do you think that the article would pass a GA review? Is there anything missing? Thanks again for having a look, Matty.007 20:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Language[edit]

What was the former primary dialect (now replaced by English)? Folklore1 (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Norman French I think, added. Matty.007 17:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]


GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Herm/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 16:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this article. Please be patient with me; it may be a few days to get to this. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks Figureskatingfan. Matty.007 17:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry it took me so long to get to this. It's my practice to look at an article generally first, and then analyze it more specifically. To that end, my reviews tend to be thorough; I start by filling out a template, and then do a prose and source review. I look forward to learning something new. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This article is interesting, but has some to go before it can be passed to a GA. Not a lot of work is required, though, so getting it qualified as a GA shouldn't be difficult.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
    One of the biggest weaknesses of this article is that the prose isn't specific enough. See below for an explanation of this statement, in the prose review.
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
    Lead is too short, and doesn't give an overview of the subject. I also have some issues with the layout, which I'll go into more detail about in the prose review.
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. Has an appropriate reference section:
    B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:
    The sources look very strong here.
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    I'm undecided about this article's scope; I'll make a more informed decision during the prose and source review.
    B. Focused:
    At first glance, this article seems a little short for an article about a place, but that might be because Herm is so small. I also still need to look at how the sources are integrated; see below.
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
    This article has had a lot of contributors, especially in the last year, but no edit wars. The GA nominator has taken over maintenance, which seems to be respected by these contributors.
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    Very nice images.
    B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    Needs work, but not much to bring it up to GA standards.

I'll be able to get back to the review, and start on the more thorough prose and source reviews starting tomorrow. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thank you. I will wait for specifics first. Thanks again, Matty.007 17:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prose review[edit]

Ok, I'll start on my prose review now. As I stated above, I tend to be thorough, so it may take several days to complete.

Lead: As I state above, the lead is too short and it doesn't give an overview of the subject. Please expand.

History

  • I know that this article is structured like other similar articles, but dividing it up this way means that the paragraphs are short. It's generally encouraged to avoid one-paragraph sections. I suggest that you combine sections; for example, you could combine the first two sections and name it "Discovery (or Ancient history) to Middle Ages". Did nothing happen in Herm between the Middle Ages and the 19th century? Then you could combine the next two sections and name it "19th century to WWII". The final section, about more recent history, would be short, but I think it would be all right anyway. Any variations of these suggestions is all right too.

Ancient history

  • Herm was first found in the Mesolithic, when hunters were in search of food. I'm not sure I like how this is worded. Do you mean that Herm was discovered by hunters searching for food during the Mesolithic period? The source states that these hunters were the first to "step foot on Herm", and the way you've worded it makes it sound like the Mesolithic was a place, not an era. How about this: "Herm was discovered during the Mesolithic period (between 10,000 and 8,000 B.C) by hunters looking for food."
  • In the Neolithic and Bronze ages, settlers arrived; the remains of chamber tombs have been found on the island, and may be seen today. This could be a little tighter. Also, I think you could incorporate the source a little better; why not state, like the source does, where the chamber tombs were found? How about: "The island was settled during the Neolithic and Bronze ages; to this day, evidence of their tombs can be seen [describe the parts of the island as cited by ref 1]."
  • Single-sentence paragraphs are also not encouraged in WP, so I think that you could combine the two paragraphs, especially since the second paragraph is about the tombs mentioned in the previous one. If you combine sections, that would work well.
  • After a three-year project by the University of Durham, supported by specialists from the University of Cambridge and the University of Oxford, and the Guernsey museum; they stated that the "density of tombs suggests that the northern end of Herm may have been a place set apart for funerary activity". Incorrect use of the semicolon, which is used in place of a period to separate two sentences when the conjunction is left out. I also think you should incorporate the source a little better; for example, you could include more information from the first paragraph of ref 2 and describe their study a little more. (I think that you could include the geological information from the study in the article, too. I'll talk more about that later, in my source review.)
    • Attempted fix of all, working on lead. Thanks, Matty.007 19:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I need to stop here. More later. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Really sorry, I've had a busy day today, so will probably start fixing tomorrow. Best, Matty.007 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, lead expanded, I have attempted to address all the issues. Thanks, Matty.007 19:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing to re-named 1st section:

  • However, the monks suffered from the inclement Atlantic; in 709, a storm washed away the strip of land which connected the island with Jethou. I dunno, monks don't suffer from bad weather; they suffer from bad health or diseases or the like. This sentence is also unclear. How did the storm affect the monks? When it washed away the strip of land, did it destroy buildings?
    • I'm not too sure how it affected the monks, the source doesn't say, so I removed the monks part. There are no other sources, mostly mirrors or sites that give no further information. Matty.007
  • An important moment in Herm's political history was in 933, when the Channel Islands were annexed to the Duchy of Normandy (they are at present a British Crown Dependency since the division of Normandy in 1204). This is an incorrect use of a parenthetical statement; see [1]. I think a re-wording is in order here: "An important moment in Herm's political history was in 933, when the Channel Islands were annexed to the Duchy of Normandy, and remained so until they became a British Crown Dependency at the division of Normandy in 1204."
  • Did Herm lose its monastic inhabitants because Normandy was antagonistic towards them?
    • I can't find anything that says that. Matty.007

19th century to World War II

  • I think you could combine the 1st 2 sentences.
  • Why was there an increase in population during the 19th century?
  • In the 19th century, industry arrived in Herm with the establishment of granite quarries. I don't think that you need to state that this happened in the 19th century, since that's the period of history you're talking about since the 1st paragraph/sentence. Is there a more specific date for when the quarries were built? If so, then it would dating when it happened during this time.
  • Why is Prince Blücher linked to Evelyn, Princess Blücher? And why did the wallabies not survive?
    • Ah. That one took some digging. I now know that the official PDF says the Prince owned it, his name given as "Prince Blucher von Wahlstatt". In the Princess' article, she married... " Gebhard Blücher von Wahlstatt". So they were husband and wife.I AGFed the source in the Princess article and used it here. The wallabies are actually rather interesting, I tried to clarify that section. Matty.007
  • Herm had only a little German construction during the war; a flak battery was placed on the island, and mines were placed in an area. I think this could be tightened. Were these the only two German construction? If so, how about: "The only German construction on Herm during the war was a flak battery and some mines placed on one area of the island."
    • Again, I can't find anything that says this explicitly. Matty.007

Operation Huckaback

  • I think it's okay to break the one-paragraph section policy here, since the article about this is small.
  • I wonder, since the main article is so small, if you need the main article template. I think that a link is adequate.
  • Huckaback was a British WWII military operation, which was reinvented as a raid on Herm alone of the channel islands... This phrase is unclear. What does "reinvented" mean? I think you should explain that it was originally meant as a raid on Herm, Jethou and Brecqhou, but it became just a raid on Herm.

Since 1945

  • Again, combine the 1st 2 paragraphs, please.
  • 1st sentence: The possessive ("its") here modifies "unspoilt island idyll", which although technically correct, is stilted. How about replacing "for" with the phrase "because it was an". Specify who "the Crown" is, please.
  • 2nd sentence: "Essentially derelict" is a peacocky-phrase. I suggest that you simply state that it was run down. What manor, and what houses? When did the mine explosion happen, and under what circumstances? When you say "they" created a school, who are you talking about?
  • Adrian and Pennie Wood Heyworth (Major Wood's daughter) succeeded them; Major Wood died in 1998. I'm not sure who the parenthetical is modifying; perhaps you remove it and state: "Major Woods' daughter Pennie Wood Heyworth and her husband Adrian Heyworth [if that's correct] succeeded..." Who is "them"? Did they succeed after Wood's death? And I'm not sure what you mean by "tenants". Are these people that rent property on the island, or are they residents? Please explain.
    • Them is now clarified earlier. They succeeded the Major and his wife, as the article now says. They owned the island. Matty.007
  • Their early efforts are recorded in the book by Jenny Wood, wife of the Major, Herm, Our Island Home. Unclear and stilted. How about: "Their early efforts are recorded in Herm, Our Island Home, written by Hood's wife Jenny Wood.
  • The final paragraph has too many passive sentences, which should be avoided here. You could just say, "The BBC reported that..." Who was afraid about the lost identity? Who made the announcement about Starboard Settlement? Also you should give more description of Starboard; I'm not sure what a trust is. What was the final price? What's a "Guernsey company"? I understand that the sources may not necessarily provide the answers to these questions, but if they're available, you should include them.
    • Done about BBC. Added who was worried. I don't know who made the original announcement about the trust. Linked trust. Final price undisclosed. Clarified that a Guernsey company is a company based in Guernsey. Matty.007

I'll stop here for now, and will return sometime later this weekend. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted fixes on all. Thanks, Matty.007 11:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Language

  • I thought about combining some headings, as per above, but I don't think that we should, regardless of the policy, because it follows the structure of similar articles. If there was more information out there, it'd be easier to follow said policy. I do think, though, that you could combine the "Language" and "Placenames" sections, and reword it so that it's all in one paragraph. You could also reword it so that the discussion about the placenames could be supported by the language use. This is what I'd do: "A number of French/Norman placenames remain, from the period when the island was in the jurisdiction of the Duchy of Normandy. The Herm Island map, published by the tenant of Herm, states that main place names, including the island name itself, have unclear origins, although there is an un-official Anglicisation of names; for example, La Pointe du gentilhomme was changed to "Alderney Point". The primary present dialect on Herm is English." [Foreign words and phrases are usually italicized.]

Politics

  • Again, we're forced to break the multi-paragraph section rule, due to lack of information.
  • Herm is a dependency of Guernsey, and is in fact owned by the States of Guernsey, being rented out to various tenants (see List of tenants of Herm. Stilted and incorrect grammar use--"being" is an adjective, so you shouldn't use it as a conjunctive phrase. It's also not encouraged to use WP as its own reference (WP:SELF), so I think you should remove the "see List of tenants of Herm" and put it in the "See also" section. I also think that the phrase between the commas is unneccessary, for since the island is a dependency of Guernsey, it's of course owned by it. How about this: "Herm is a dependency of Guernsey, and is rented out to various tenants." I also think you should explain the tenant system a little; it would certainly bulk up the section.
    • Again, done, but a lack on info on what the tenants are. Matty.007

Geography and geology

  • I think that you combine the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs. I'd keep the 1st paragraph separate, since it's about a different topic than the sentences that follow.
  • The isle of Jethou is just to the south. Not specific enough, even though the image helps. Please state how many miles to the south.
  • It is said that in 709 AD... Who says? I think you could remove those words, and start the sentence with "In 709 AD,..." Is there any information about the effect of this event, other than separating the islands?
    • Changed to "it is possible", as the source is not definite. No other info available. Matty.007
  • To the west is the channel Little Roussel (Petit Ruau) between it and Guernsey, and the Big Roussel (Grand Ruau) to the east, between it and Sark. Your use of the pronoun ("it") makes this unclear. How about: "To the west, between Herm and Guernsey, lies the channel Little Roussel (Petit Ruau); between Herm and Sark, to the east, lies the Big Roussel (Grand Ruau)."
  • The tower in the Little Roussel between Herm and St Peter Port is the Bréhon Tower, a Victorian-era fortification. Stilted language. How about: "The Bréhon Tower, a Victorian-era fortification, is in the Little Roussel, between Herm and St Peter Port."
  • I think that you could move the sentence about the bedrock to the 1st paragraph. I know you were trying to structure it in a specific way, but I think this is better, since it combines the geology concepts together and the tower info together. Please disagree if you like.
  • Thomas Charles de Putron (1806–1869) used granite from Herm to construct the Bréhon Tower between 1854 and 1856. If you're going to combine this sentence with the previous paragraph, how about this: "The tower was constructed by Thomas Charles de Putron (1806–1869), who used the island's granite, between 1854 and 1856." This also emphasizes that it was constructed from home-found materials. Who is de Purton? Please briefly identify him. And are the dates he lived?
    • Done. No info on de Purton, other than the fact that he helped make some forts. The dates in brackets are his life dates. Matty.007
  • In 2008, Adrian Heyworth, the then tenant, said that two or three meters of sand were being lost annually at Alderney Point. I think you could move this sentence up to the 1st paragraph, after the info about the granite bedrock, since they're similar ideas. Please state what part of the island where Alderney Point is. The sentence is also stilted, so how about: "Adrian Heyworth, who was the island's tenant at the time [or the years he served, if the information's available], said in 2008 that two or three meters of sand were being lost annually at Alderney Point." Is there any information about why the sand was being lost?
    • Done structure. No info on why. Matty.007

Sorry this is so hit-and-miss. This is a priority with me, so I'll return tomorrow to finish the prose review and start and complete the source review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted fix of all. Thanks, Matty.007 17:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Culture

  • Much of this section reads like a trivia section, which is to be avoided: WP:TRIVIA. I think that you could fold the content in other sections. See below for my recommendations.
  • Compton Mackenzie, who owned the island, represented it in Fairy Gold, albeit in a fictional representation. This is unclear. This has more to do with the how you utilize your sources, so I'll address what you can do about it in my source review. Please hold off on doing anything with this for now.
  • I think the info about Gormley can be put in the "Geography and geology" section, after the Brehon Tower stuff. Briefly identify Gormley, please. Why was the sculpture on the island temporary? Also briefly identify the Another Time series, and why this sculpture was placed on Herm.
    • Done. Not much on the series, or why Herm though. Matty.007
  • Again, I'll address the Britain in Bloom paragraph in the prose review section.
  • I think you could put the sentence about the residents in the "Politics" section, after the 2nd sentence, since you're talking about the tenants.
  • I think you could also put the car ban info at the end of the "Politics" section, since it's about a particular law. Why does this law exist?

Religion: I think that with some re-wording, the info here could be "Economy and buildings" section, since what's important is how the chapel is currently used. I'll address it next.

Economy and buildings

  • To make things easier, I'll just put a rewrite here, with my suggestion about what to do with the previous section, and then you can do with as you want. In my version, I've cut the first sentence; I explain why in my source review.
Tourism is Herm's main source of income. In a busy summer season, up to 100,000 tourists pass through Herm, via one of the Travel Trident catamaran ferries operated by the Trident Charter Company.
Buildings on the island includes the White House hotel, a pub and restaurant named "The Mermaid" and 20 self catering cottages. There is an obelisk on The Common, on the North of the island. The White House has no clocks, televisions, or phones, which is described as "part of its charm", and has a return rate of 70%. Herm has no consecrated religious buildings or resident professional clergy, but visiting clergy conducts non-denominational weekly services during the summer months, and monthly services, led by local lay people, are held during the winter."

Emergency services

  • Herm Fire Brigade operates a tractor-hauled fire tender with hose-reel, pump, 2,000-litre water tank, and basic fire-fighting equipment with which to tackle fires whilst awaiting assistance from the Guernsey Fire Brigade, who also provide the Herm volunteers with training and support. This could be more clear. How about: "Herm Fire Brigade operates a tractor-hauled fire tender with a hose-reel, a pump, a 2,000-litre water tank, and basic fire-fighting equipment, which they use while waiting for assistance from the Guernsey Fire Brigade, who also provide the Herm volunteers with training and support."

Okay, done with prose review. Thanks for your patience; I'll move onto the source review shortly. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted fix of all. Thanks, Matty.007 20:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • One of my biggest concerns with this article is how you utilize sources. I think that this article could be expanded further if you did a better job at this. I'll go through the sources and explain what I mean.
  • Ref 1: The source states that between the 900s to 1569, Herm and all the Channel Islands was under the jurisdiction of the Duchy of Normandy, when Norman dukes gave its control to Norman monasteries. It also says "Monks lived on the island for several decades, farming and giving religious instruction", but you don't state this anywhere in the article. It states that Herm became a centre for British granite quarrying during the Industrial Revolution, and why, and where quarry remains can be found today, but that's not here, either. 400 quarrymen lived on the island to accommodate this, and that's why so many things were built during this period. I could go on, but I think you get the point. There are lots of information that just isn't included in this article that could be, which would bulk up the article and make it more interesting. I'm afraid that this is the case for most of the sources used in this article.
  • Ref 2: Sure enough, you're missing information that can be garnered from here, too. The entire website is full of interesting stuff about the island's geology. I'd also be interested in finding out the results of this study; I'm sure there's a paper written about it, and it'd be interesting to have its results here.
  • Ref 3: And again! This webpage talks about the unique geography; some of the information really should make its way here.
  • Ref 4: This entire webpage has more information that isn't utilized. For example, it connects Herm and Sark in some interesting ways.
  • I think that you can see a pattern emerging, so I'm not going to bother going through the rest of the sources, since I'm sure that I'd say the same thing about most of them. I'm inclined to fail this article for this reason; it can be argued that not utilizing the sources well enough doesn't fulfill GA Criteria #3, broadness. However, the criteria also states that GAs are "shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics", so it can be said that this article is adequate to pass as GA. This cursory review, along with the sources I looked at while I did my more exhaustive prose review, seem to satisfy Criteria #2. I highly suggest that if you want to move further with this article, like onto FA status, you go through all the sources and make sure that you use all the information in them.

I'm not happy with how the sources are utilized, but I still think that this qualifies as a GA. I'll go ahead and pass it now. Thanks for your willingness to accept my feedback, and for your patience. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your review, and for your help in getting this to GA status. I will work on the source issues at some point, likely after the Cup I'm afraid. Thanks again, Matty.007 19:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of questions[edit]

Is there an explanation to the obelisk - who, when and why? It seems to be called Pierre aux Rats and "built as a navigational aide for fisherman after quarrymen removed a large tomb previous sused by the fishermen" (1, I can but hope there is a better source). Also, if the island has been pictured in literature (Compton Mackenzie in mentioned in the first referenced source), I would expect to find it in here (at least if I was a Hermian - Hermite? - another thing I don't know after reading the article). Hope this helps a bit. --Oop (talk) 10:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also found that, but it seems to be reader contributed, so is not a reliable source, and after further searching for the info found nothing. Added Mackenzie. Can't find much about hermites or hermians. Best, Matty.007 11:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for fixing a few typos Oop. Best, Matty.007 11:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

William the Conqueror in 933?[edit]

The Middle Ages section states that the island was annexed by William the Conqueror in 933. Is this a joke? or was there another William the Conqueror, or did he live another 133 years to go on and conquer England? I can't correct the article because I have no idea when he did actually annexe Herm. Jiver2 (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jiver2: fixed. Thanks, Matty.007 19:27, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note...[edit]

I originally worked on the article here (soon to be deleted I'm afraid), and was told to link to it so that it was obvious where I copied it from. Thanks, Matty.007 19:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Loss of identity fears - clarification required[edit]

Herm is currently managed by Herm Island Ltd, formed by Starboard Settlement, who acquired Herm in 2008, following fears that the island's identity was at threat.

I propose that this phrase following fears that the island's identity was at threat. be removed from the preamble section of this article as it is misleading and possibly damaging.

The wording suggests that the disposal/acquisition itself was consequent on these fears, and there is therefore an implied reflection on the way the island was managed prior to that.

It is unnecessary to state it at this level in the article as it is repeated in the body with sources, and as a relatively trivial fact of interest only at the time, (hardly worth mentioning even in the body) it certainly does not merit a double appearance in this article. I don't have a suggestion for alternative wording, as I don't believe it is worth rewriting/expanding to clarify, or that it qualifies to be one of the headline statements in the introduction to this article about Herm Island. Apparentnorth (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would disagree that it isn't notable, the community being afraid that major traditions (such as the no-car rule) could be overturned by being bought by a company. I have reworded it a bit, any better now? Thanks, Matty.007 15:05, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Too late, it's already happened. Who speaks Channel Island patois there anymore? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.84.218.180 (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Compton Mackenzie[edit]

Has been largely written put of the history of this island, by his successors the Woods, despite being by far the most interesting tenant.

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Clearly not the primary meaning[edit]

Herm (sculpture) consistently gets higher views. The plain term should go to the disam page. Johnbod (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Smallest prison in the world"? I doubt it[edit]

I have removed the following text from the Crime and law enforcement section:

There is a prison on the island, located between the White House Hotel and the sea-front. The prison has one window in its granite wall and another in the door, can only house one person, and is notable for being the smallest jail in the world.[1]
  • The ref given is from a self-confessed spoof site, which says in the last few paragraphs of the page:
For the avoidance of doubt
All of the characters, organisations, publications and narrative of the Sarnian series, any related publications, products and web sites are fictitious. Characters, events, organisations and publications are not intended to refer to actual entities or events and any similarity is unintentional and entirely coincidental.
What's this all about?
This web site, and its contents, are here to support The Sarnian, a series of books set on and around the Channel Islands, and Guernsey in particular. It started as a means of keeping track of each character so that their features, loves, desires, abilities, looks and so on didn't change from book to book and has grown to become a complete encyclopedia of the series.
  • In full, the ref source says "A granite, windowless building in the grounds of the White House Hotel holds some claim to fame for the island, being the smallest prison in the world." [my italics]. And a 1948 photo, the year before the former country house reopened as a hotel,[2] and a 2022 video [3] (2:55 - 3:31), show that it is indeed in the hotel grounds. Why would a prison be built on private land belonging to a house or inn, rather than on public land?
  • But the top 10 results of a Google search for "smallest prison in the world" all refer to a prison on the neighbouring island of Sark, which contains two 1-person cells, divided by a corridor, in a building of internal dimensions approx 18 ft x 6 ft (5.4 m x 1.8 m) which is considerably bigger than the building on Herm [4]. Another clue to the substitution in the spoof article is that Sark's prison does appear to be windowless, as in the spoof page's description of a Herm prison, while the actual building on Herm has a small window in the door and another in the back wall, as our editor has noticed.
  • Yet Herm's own website, which appears to be aimed solely at encouraging tourism, only states baldly that "During this quarrying era [1810s to 1880s] the first large community since prehistoric times was formed and the harbour, roads and pathways were constructed. 400 quarrymen were estimated to be working on the island. To cater for their needs, accommodation, a forge, blacksmiths, brewery, bakery and a prison were built." [5]. There is no mention of a tiny (maybe 7 ft or 2.1 m internally) circular hut, much smaller than the prison on Sark. I suggest the reason is simple -- the prison was not that building, but a larger one elsewhere, on public land and probably with at least 2 cells -- with 400 workmen, often plus their families, the population would have been somewhat larger than Sark's, which was generally 500 - 650. There appears to have been one, or even two, pubs. Every so often, there would have been drunken brawls, where both sides had to be arrested and held separately because they refused to stop fighting. Two cells would seem to have been essential.
  • Frustratingly, I have not managed to find any information about the hotel's history other than brief mention on its own webpage and Facebook page, but they state, between them, that the original building, now hardly visible due to many extensions, was built as an inn in the 1860s, before becoming a private house by around 1923 if not earlier, and reverting to a hotel in 1949. Nor is there any indication as to when the island was electrified, although due to the new tenant's career in motor manufacturing, I suspect the house at least would have been electrified in 1923 if it wasn't already.
  • The importance of what the White House was used for, and when it was electrified, is because buildings of similar shape to the "prison" were associated with the non-electrified country houses of the rich in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The clue is in the shape, not just circular, but domed -- as near to spherical as could easily be built, because a sphere has minimum possible ratio of surface area to volume, and good insulation was not yet available for strong constructional materials -- they were indeed "coolers" but not in the slang sense. In the coldest part of winter, ice would be cut from ponds and lakes, brought in and packed tight into the Ice house (building) (which would extend for several feet, or even several storeys, below the door level) [6] and if well packed, would last all through the summer, and would be chipped or sawn out as required by the chef, to allow super-luxurious food, such as ice cream, to be prepared and brought to the table on hot days. Due to the maritime climate in Herm, there would be an additional cost that ice would need to be imported from Northern France, a few miles inland, while in Central England, local ice could be used. The "prison" does seem rather small for this (unless it was just the top of a spiral stair) but possibly they were regularly supplied by the ships which bought ice year-round from Northern Scandinavia, to supply fishmongers, etc.
  • Of course, if there is no sign of a past stair, or at least a pit, then my theory must be wrong, (and we can't add it anyway, in the absence of hard evidence, since it's WP:OR, but unless someone finds clear indication from a reputable non-spoof site, I don't think we should call it a prison either, since it is impracticably small, and not attested on local tourism sites as would be expected.
  • If it were in West Cornwall, we might expect it was built by a superstitious vicar who believed the devil could not hide in a building without corners [7], or perhaps someone built it as a folly -- a "hermitage" in honour of the possible derivation of Herm from Hermit, but if even the island's own PR people don't claim it as a prison, I don't think we should. (Although a local guide, Lesley Bailey appears to have convinced a German group,[8] you will find, if you follow the link, that she is no longer accredited as a guide. It reminds me of a cynical Cambridge student who took a vacation job as a guide on a local tour bus in the early 1970s. They would drive along, then stop, he would explain the relevant history, they would all get out and take photos, then get back on the bus and continue. The road to the nearby village of Grantchester is a dead end, so having checked that the church clock was keeping time correctly, and whatever else you look at in Grantchester, they drove to a point where the bus could turn round. One time, someone asked "What are we looking for here?" On the spur of the moment, he pointed to a tree and said "That's a very famous tree!" They all trooped out and photographed it, got back on board satisfied, the bus turned round and they continued. He was of course a friend of a friend, so it must be true ;-) but even so, I'm not convinced by the statement that from then on, he said that on every trip, and no one ever asked why the tree was famous. You see, my friend was a touch cynical himself.)

Enginear (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Herm". The Sarnian. 25 June 2014. Retrieved 11 August 2021.
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