Talk:Jiang Qing

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Untitled[edit]

There is a lot of revealing information on Jiang Qing and the Gang of Four and Mao's death in The Private Life of Chairman Mao: The Memoirs of Mao's Personal Physician, a memoir by Dr. Li Zhisui published 1994. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.228.216 (talk) 14:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

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Untitled[edit]

This article does not even state the charge against Jiang Qing. Shorne 03:42, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica says that she was Mao's third wife; is the current article correct in saying that she was his fourth wife?

Yes! On page 7 Jung Chang quotes Mao (The Unknown Story): 'When I was 14, my parents married me to a girl of 20. But I never lived with her...I do not consider her my wife...' Gather the confusion is of this origin. But indeed it was an actual marriage.

""" "Comment" Jung Chang's book "The Unknown Story" is not a work to rely on, it has been research by a large number of experts in this area and they all agreed on the many faults of the book. She is not a historian. Unfortunately I do not at the moment have the source for this except a leading sinologist telling me this face to face. Will return with facts. """

There are accurate accounts suggesting Mao did have an arranged marriage when he was still working as a farmer. The marriage did not formally take place, but is considered as one that had. [[User:Colipon|Colipon+(T)]] 23:02, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If it wasn't legally recognized why are we writing "fourth wife" all over her wiki page? It contradicts Mao Zedong's page where it says she was his 3rd wife. Someone needs to fix it because it looks dumb and makes wikipedia look bad. Unless there is undeniable fact showing its his fourth wife she should be called 3rd. If we choose not to do that than change Mao's page too so its not so contradictory. Please, figure this out its really confusing for those of us just passing by and reading it.

此篇文章可能尚存错误。最后一段说道江青在1991年保外就医，在释放后自杀，但是现实说法是江青是在1991年5月14日保外就医的过程中在公寓用毛巾上吊自杀的。The last sentence sais Jiang released for medical reasons in 1991, then release. But maybe the truth isn't it. Many articles said that Jiang suicided herself on May 14, 1991, in her apartment in the time of medical with a towel.--Flsxx 01:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wait, why is she listed as a "polygamist?"

Suicide[edit]

Note that the entry under Jiang Qing states that she committed suicide, but the entry under Gang of Four says that she "supposedly" committed suicide. Given the nature of the Chinese government I think it unlikely we have good information about her death, but shouldn't the two have similar language? Suggest something along the lines of "according to the government, she committed suicide", rather than getting into the implications behind "supposedly" or the presumed factuality of "she committed suicide". 70.107.171.204 (talk) 11:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph Caption?[edit]

Shouldn't the first photo have a caption? When was it taken? Where? - Speaker for the Dead 15:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Real Name??[edit]

So what was her real original name? Lǐ Shūméng? Lĭ Jìnhái? Lĭ Yúnhè?

The narrative of this in the Early Years part is completely confusing. 208.87.248.162 (talk) 00:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "real name". Jiang Qing's situation is very complicated. The closest thing she has to a "real name" is Jiang Qing itself. Read the section on "names" and you will probably get a better idea. Colipon+(Talk) 00:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Mao[edit]

The section on the death of Mao could really use some citations, as it makes a number of declarations about her suspicious behavior there. It's possible this is accurate, but it sounds suspiciously like after-the-fact maligning of Jiang Qing by Maoist editors. 162.84.185.225 (talk) 19:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first four paragraphs of this section closely parallel mentions of Jiang Ching in the description of Mao's death in The Private Life of Chairman Mao by Li Zhisui. Someday I may add the relevant citations, but it's a pretty low priority for me at the moment.--Wikimedes (talk) 01:16, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Education[edit]

Is it ever stated why Jiang was able to attend school while most girls her age were not? Until about 1920s, you did not send your daughter to school if you lived in China (the schools were all occupied by young boys and later men in high schools and universities). She was born in 1914. Thanks in advance. 75.5.5.83 (talk) 23:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "Names" section even states, "Many females in that time period did not receive formal education or given names". I am assuming her parents were wealthy and open-minded enough to support it. 75.5.5.83 (talk) 23:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fukuda Cemetery[edit]

It is quite strange that the Japanese translation of the cemetery is used in this article instead of its original Chinese name (Futian), even though it seems the cemetery has nothing to do with Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nzlittlesheep (talk • contribs) 15:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Hooking someone"?[edit]

After arriving in Yan'an, Jiang began to think seriously about "hooking someone". After several affairs, Jiang began seriously plotting the seduction of Mao Zedong, clapping ostentatiously at his lectures and inviting herself into his cave. Soon after Mao and Jiang became acquainted, Zhou Enlai discovered Mao having an affair in the wilderness with Jiang, but exercised discretion.

Is there another, more reliable source for this? The current source is written about a book that is written about the supposed "facts" about Jiang Qing. Do we have any, perhaps, first-hand accounts of the personal lives of Jiang Qing and Mao Zedong? ZhangYuu (talk) 20:43, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source is one of the more standard sources available in English for Jiang, and the phrase "hooking someone" was quoted in that source. Most of this article is unsourced, so this section, if anything, raises the standard of the article, even if the source relies partially on anecdote. If facts from the source need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, I do not believe that the quoted section's depiction of Jiang is contrary to other reports of her character, or how she is generally viewed by Chinese historians.Ferox Seneca (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot believe an article that pretends to be neutral can use such language and use as a serious source a book called " THE WHITE— -BONED DEMON". Is this for real? This should be removed or completely rewritten until a more credible source is found, as it is now it goes out of its way to demonize Jiang Qing.
There are many books with eye-catching and seemingly derogatory titles, yet they meet Wikipedia's reliable source standards and are otherwise cited by historians. For example, books discussing cult leader Jim Jones include titles like Seductive Poison, Our Father Who Art in Hell, and The Broken God. Likewise, Ross Terrill's biography of Jiang Qing is one of the main sources of Jiang's life in English; being subtitled "The White-Boned Demon" doesn't change that. --Ismail (talk) 03:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Sources[edit]

WhisperToMe (talk) 06:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did or didn't Li Na, Jiang and Mao's daughter, go insane?[edit]

It is asserted in the article that Li Na (the only daughter of Jiang and Mao) was forced to divorce her husband, and as a result went insane. The source is a New York Times review of a 1984 biography of Jiang. However, this information is nowhere to be found in Li Na's article. In fact, it seems (from the article) that she has lived quite a productive life, and is currently a member of the PCC.

So, which source is to be trusted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.2.77 (talk) 16:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in Li Na's biography look like they are all Chinese-language PRC sources. Chinese government publications (like the People's Daily) are all self-published sources, and are not reliable when discussing the history of the PRC. Non-government PRC sources are censored from writing too much about the Cultural Revolution, so they are generally not reliable sources of information for this period, either. Li Na's biography is very short, and doesn't discuss the period of Li's life during the Cultural Revolution, when Jiang would have victimized Li.
If you think that a New York Times book review is too tertiary to be reliable, I could look up the information in the actual biography and improve the relevant citation. I could probably improve Li's article.Ferox Seneca (talk) 23:47, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Specious claims and Bad sources for them[edit]

Hi. Wanted to post this here for discussion, if that is needed but the obvious reason why I deleted certain parts was because what jumped out was that these parts read as a propaganda partisan piece, and no wonder when I looked at the sole source used to make it being a partisan and non-reliable source: Boxun News Network! If those claims are true then they must be made with reliable sources, academic sources by China specialists. Thus, deleting them is a must per WP policies. So, please don't restore it unless you can explain why this source can possibly be deemed reliable or appropriate. Lets make WP look good, and encyclopedic!24.5.69.164 (talk) 22:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And for those who are not familiar with Boxun, its a dissident press akin to a tabloid style publication. Boxun's policy is that anyone is free to submit news to their website, which means that many of these stories are contributed anonymously and are unverifiable. This source absolutely has no place being used as a reference to support controversial claims, esp. sensationalistic ones about alleged planned murders, etc. 24.5.69.164 (talk) 22:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about Boxun, but I accept your criticism of it. I agree that, if the article detailing the circumstances of Sun Weishi's imprisonment and death were anonymous or from an obscure author, the source would be spurious, unreliable, and should be removed. I believe that the information should be restored because the article is an excerpt from a book written by a reliable author, Zhang Langlang.
Zhang is a China-educated Chinese historian who later worked as a professor in Germany. He isn't well-known, but his accounts of the Cultural Revolution have been examined and taken at face-value by numerous reliable and academic sources. Many of the sources that mention him aren't available on the internet, but I was able to find a few: here, here, and here. If you have access to JSTOR, you can find numerous academic articles on him, his work, and his writing here. Zhang's account of how Jiang targeted Sun for her personal relationship with Jiang and Zhou is very similar to other, alternatively sourced accounts of how Jiang targeted her personal "enemies" during this period (some of which are included in this article). Because of the way Jiang targeted Sun in this account is consistent with her other activities during the Cultural Revolution, I do not believe that Zhang's account should be considered controversial.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds reasonable to me, but can you verify the credentials of Zhang? Everything I found only lists him as a dissident writer, who studied poetry. Also, I would expect to see his claims substantiated in some way, or at least repeated by other verified scholars on the question. I was unable to find that either. This story, as far as I have been able to find has only been claimed by Zhang Langlang. Because it alleges a rather serious offense, and should be regarded as requiring substantiation. 24.5.69.164 (talk) 01:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Getting information on both Sun Weishi and Zhang Langlang is difficult, because they are both fairly obscure characters, and because most of the information about them isn't freely available online (in English). I know only a few sources that discuss Sun in English: she has a short biography that confirms much of Zhang's details in this book, but that section isn't available online. This book describes how Jiang hated both Zhou and Sun, but the section on Sun's death has been cut from the version available online. This book says clearly that "Sun Weishi was tortured to death... by Jiang Qing". Because other reliable sources agree that Jiang hated Sun, partially for her relationship with Zhou Enlai, and that Jiang had Sun arrested and tortured to death in 1968, Zhang's account is standard. Zhang's account is cited here because it is the most available account I can find that goes into the most detail.
Zhang himself is pretty obscure, I think moreso for me because most of his historical writing has been exclusively in Chinese. Page two of this document describes Zhang as an "art historian", but he has published some historical books that don't seem strictly related to art history: here, here, and here. I agree that Boxun in general is probably unreliable, but I think that there is enough information available to confirm that Zhang himself is a reliable source, and that his account of Sun's death is standard.Ferox Seneca (talk) 17:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opera[edit]

Didn't she write several operas ? Is that notable ? Eregli bob (talk) 07:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please find sources and add the information that you believe is notable to the article.Ferox Seneca (talk) 05:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Major player" but "stayed essentially on the sidelines"[edit]

The text offers this assessment of her political career during the last decade of Mao's life and the height of the Cultural Revolution: "Although a prominent member of the Central Cultural Revolution Group and a major player in Chinese politics from 1966 to 1976, she essentially remained on the sidelines.[1]" Mind explaining how it is possible for someone at the same time to be a "major player" and "remain on the sidelines"? Since "sidelines" is a sports metaphor, imagine the problem here in these terms, a dialogue between A and B. A asks B: so was C a major player in last night's game (analogous to the political scene in China from 1966-1976). A: Yes, but (equivalent to the "although" in the article-????) he essentially stayed on the sidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.48.228.89 (talk) 05:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Citations urgently needed[edit]

A large number of sections and information stated in this wiki is unreferenced. I have added tags to that effect. Can someone please provide (reliable) sources for them? Else it reads more like a potboiler plot (albeit an interesting one) rather than a serious wiki of a person who was extremely influential in China's recent past. Thanks a lot. Notthebestusername (talk) 03:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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Her status in current China[edit]

It would be good to know how she is regarded by the current Chinese in power? And also, as well, by the common people? Alcmaeonid (talk) 06:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: HIST 4048 Women and Gender in Modern China[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 16 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Physical12138 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Physical12138 (talk) 03:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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