Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and the Holocaust/Archive 1
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Declaration of Facts
The following material should be incorporated into the main article in an NPOV fashion. This may or may not be copyright, so don't just cut and paste it in. Rewrite this in your own words, except when using the brief quotes provided. These may be quoted in accord with fair use copyright law. RK
Hitler had just come to power, and the Nazi part was flexing its muscles against all other groups. The Watchtower Society had made large investments in Germany, which were threatened by Nazi suspicions of them as communists. In an attempt to salvage the situation, and avoid the seizure of property, the President of the Watch Tower Society (WTS) made a trip to Germany, and arranged for a statement to be produced, adopted at a convention of German JWs in Berlin, and distributed to senior Nazis. Portions of this "Declaration of Facts" were reproduced in the JW English language YearBook of 1934, and are reproduced below. In reading them bear in mind the climate in which they were written, in which the Nazis were winning power by using the grievances of many Germans over war reparations, combined with nebulous claims about an international Zionist conspiracy, acting by means of England and the USA to attack Germany. The 1934 Yearbook of JWs beginning on page 130 said:
"In June, the president of the Society visited Germany to take some action to get the Society's property restored to our possession and to carry on the work further. Knowing that the enemy has misrepresented the facts to the government, a Declaration of Facts was prepared, and on the 25th day of June, 1933, more than 7,000 of Jehovah's witnesses assembled at Berlin and unanimously adopted the resolution, millions of which were printed and distributed throughout Germany. That resolution is as follows, to wit: "
" Declaration of Facts" ... page 134 ...
"The greatest and the most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: 'The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.' We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose."
... page 135 ...
"The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big Business and the wrongful political religious influence..."
... page 136 ...
"To know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for humankind is of most vital importance to all persons, because God has declared in His Word that where there is no vision or understanding of his Word the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18) We have devoted our lives and our material substance to the work of enabling the people to gain a vision or understanding of God's Word, and therefore it is impossible for our literature and our work to be a menace to the peace and safety of the nation. Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart."
The following quotes are from the 1974 JW yearbook. This book, unfortunately, out a historical revisionist spin on matters; however, what remains is still fascinating.
"Brother Rutherford, who, together with Bro Knorr, had come to Germany just a few days before in order to see what could be done to ensure the safety of the Society's property, had prepared a declaration with Bro Balzereit to be presented to the convention delegates for adoption. It was a protest against the meddling of the Hitler government into the preaching work we were doing. All high government officials, from the Reich's president on down, were to receive a copy of the declaration, if possible by registered mail. Several days before the convention started Rutherford returned to America. Many in attendance were disappointed in the 'declaration', since in many points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Bro Muetze from Dresden, who had worked closely with Bro Balzereit up until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. It was not the first time that Bro Balzereit had watered down the clear and unmistakable language of the Society's publications so as to avoid difficulties with governmental agencies."
Personal comment: One can only wonder at what the original English text of Rutherford was like before being 'weakened' and 'watered down' by Balzereit! What worse things would it have said about America, or England, or "the Jews"?
"A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In fact, a former pilgrim brother by the name of Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It could not be rightfully said that the declaration was unanimously adopted, even though Bro Balzereit later notified Bro Rutherford that it had been. The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took 2,100,000 copies of the 'declaration' home with them, however, and made fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in positions of responsibility. The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a letter that, in part, read:
'The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80 years' imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda against Germany.' [Original Italics]
Calling for prayers for Allied victory in it's pages, and encouragement to buy War Bonds, doesn't count as 'war propaganda against Germany'?!? The section ends: "Even though the declaration had been weakened and many of the brothers could not wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and started a wave of persecution against those who distributed it"
Clutch keeps censoring this article, by deleting all historical facts about the Jehovah's Witnesses that he is uncomfortable with. I am deeply disturbed by his work on Wikipedia. When it comes to statements about Jews, he presents anti-Semitic opinions as facts, but when it comes to the Jehovah's Witnesses, he flat-out lies about the contents of history books, lies about the letters and outreach programs of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and censors facts about them, solely because he is trying to use Wikipedia as a pro-JW propaganda piece. He is clearly and deliberately violating NPOV and Wikipedia community rules. We have a choice to allow him to continue his destructiove behavioir, or we can work to prevent him from causing further damage. RK
- Please copy any historical facts about Jehovah's Witnesses that Clutch has deleted, to this talk page. I will make sure they get back in, provided they are (a) verifiable and (b) relevant. --Ed Poor
RK changed the following passage to the next:
- They did attempt to work with the Nazis to end the persecution, by explaining their beliefs and political neutrality. The letter stated that Jehovah's Witnesses "have no interest in political affairs, but are wholly devoted to God's Kingdom under Christ His King." This effort met with intensified persecution of this group.
- The leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses attempted to work with the Nazis, based on their common hatred of "the Jews". The Witnesses told Hitler that they believed that the Allied were being controlled by the Jews, and that the Allies were the wrong party in the conflict. In a series of detailed anti-Semitic, anti-British and anti-American statements, their laid out a pro-Nazi position. This effort failed to win over the trust of the Nazi party. Please see this entry's TAlk page for documentation and sources.
RK, why did you make this change? Particularly:
- why did you take out the no interest in political affairs sentence?
- why didn't you add the source for the "Allies...controlled...wrong party" thing directly into the article?
- I didn't mean to take that sentence out. We should put that sentence back in. RK
I will not tolerate either anti-semitism or false claims of anti-semitism in Wikipedia articles. Please stop this edit war, and start attributing claims to named sources, or I'll protect the page. --Ed Poor
- Ed. I did attribute the sources I used; the sources are right here in this very Talk page. I just haven't summarized all of this material yet. Nothing is hidden, or being pulled out of thin air. Its just a matter of summarizing the Talk section into the main article. Note that people are not saying that "The JW leadership says bad things about Jews." as a personal attack. Rather, as is documented here (and can be verified elsewhere both in print and on the Internet), the JW leadership themselves tried to ingratiate themselves with the Nazis by making anti-Jewish statements. This was a historical fact about how a given organization tried to align itself during World War II. I am sure that they were not falsely accusing themselves of anything; this seems to be their actual views at the time. If Clutch wises to say that the JW leadership has changed their views since then, that's fine by me. If he wants to add more info, that is fine too. But he is denying that this ever was their view to begin with. That's incorrect. He is just hiding things he is uncomfortble with, even if they extremely imporant. If I took that view, I'd have to hide everything in certain articles here, because this encyclopedia includes facts about some Jewish people that I am not proud of. But when facts are representativeof mainstream organizations that have an imporant place in history, they deserve to be mentioned, even if it makes me, or Clutch, uncomfortable. RK
Here is some more documentation for the points I am raising. To the best of my knowledge, no historians dispute the contents of this article. If Clutch is unhappy about these events, there isn't anything that we can do for him. RK
Summary of Jehovah's Witness policy towards Nazis during World War II More sources on JW letters to Nazis, about their common hatred of Jews
Thank you, 165.155.160.135, for your contribution. It's an improvement to the article, and thus it's a step in the right direction. Now, RK & Clutch, can we find a way to describe the position held/expressed by JW to the Nazi regime about Jews, without either one of you feeling an urgent, uncontrollable need to revert the other's changes?
- Already done! I (RK) am 165.155.160.135 - at least for today. I posted that modification from a public use computer at work; I tried to sign on, but for whatever reason got logged out of Wikipedia without realizing it. I'm gald that you liked the changes & source listings. I am trying to contribute material that is acceptable from an NPOV view. RK
- LOL, now I have to ask myself whether I liked the change because I thought it wasn't you -- or not. Intellectual humility isn't easy. :-) --Ed Poor 23:21 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC)
How about:
- According to source A, Johann Witner told Nat Skum that Jews are blah, blah, blah; and,
- According to source B, Jimmy Windsor says that JW never made any statements about Jews
Or whatever. I'm trying to stay out of the substance of this debate. If I have to write the article myself, it's a waste of everyone's time. Better if both of you, RK and Clutch, can learn to work together. Try, please. --Ed Poor
kent steinhaug and other issues
Making the assertion that J's ws supported or identified in any way with nazism should be supported by better sources than kent steinhaug and lori macgregor (both referenced above). These individuals are x-jw with axes to grind.
What was originally in the letter penned by wbts members in leadership positions should be researched before making any solid statement as to whether or not there was an intended pacification of Hitler and his cronies. Perhaps the missing strength of the letter was that it was too concilliatory. Comments by RK such as: "Personal comment: One can only wonder at what the original English text of Rutherford was like before being 'weakened' and 'watered down' by Balzereit! What worse things would it have said about America, or England, or "the Jews"?"
seem to reveal a definite desire to discredit the religion not present a NPOV. Here is a novel idea - why not write the wbts and ask them for whatever documentation they may have? george
- Sounds like you are uncomfortable with the words of some of your own church leaders, who were trying to get friendly with Adolph Hitler. If this makes you uncomfortable, don't blame me. It is easy to insult me, and attack others as ex-JWs with an axe to grind, but it is harder to face up to the historical truth: There were some people who had some rather bad ideas. RK
Obviously someone did make some bad decisions - whether it was (in the context being discussed) Rutherford or the brother assigned to oversee the german branch should be found out or a fact before posting incomplete or unresearched data.
Biased opinions are unreliable as sources for copy, therefore it would be in the best interest of this reference work to carefully consider whether the sources you cited have been honest in their appraisals. Your obvious bias revealed by your comments also bring into question the reliability of your research. I am not trying to insult you. I am trying to point out a need for further research. I did allow my personal feelings to color my earlier comments and I apologize.
It still remains to be seen if the wbts will be contacted with regard to this article, and really all of the articles contained in wikipedia.
Let's look at some supplementary information from a wbts publication. Information conveniently left out by you and your sources.
- yb74 p. 107 Germany (Part One) ***
During this time Balzereit's integrity to Jehovah was threatened from another direction. He had evidently always been afraid of persecution. As the responsible leader of the German office he had been prosecuted in connection with the distribution of the resolution "Ecclesiastics Indicted." It is true that he was acquitted, but when the judge pleaded with him to avoid making such strong statements in our literature in the future, he evidently was determined to follow this advice, for when expressions and statements in The Watch Tower or in other publications from Brooklyn seemed to be too strong for him, he would "water them down"
Materialistic desires also began to grow. Balzereit had enjoyed writing poetry and having it published in the magazine The Golden Age under the pseudonym of Paul Gerhard, and now he had written a book and had it published in Leipzig. This book was then added to the list of literature to be distributed by the congregations, who, unaware of the true circumstances, ordered it, thereby bringing Brother Balzereit considerable financial profit. He also had a tennis court built at Bethel at one time, not so much for the benefit of the whole family as for his own use.
- yb74 p. 109 Germany (Part One) ***
In Magdeburg, government officials had notified the office that the picture on the title page (a warrior holding a sword dripping blood) was unacceptable and demanded that it be removed. Brother Balzereit, who had repeatedly shown his willingness to compromise, gave immediate instructions to remove the colored covers from the booklets.
Now, let's look at the statements posted by RK again, reproduced in the refernce work I have at my disposal.
- yb74 p. 111 Germany (Part One) ***
Many in attendance were disappointed in the "declaration," since in many points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Brother Mütze from Dresden, who had worked closely with Brother Balzereit up until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. ***It was not the first time that Brother Balzereit had watered down the clear and unmistakable language of the Society's publications so as to avoid difficulties with governmental agencies.**** (emphasis mine)
A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In fact, a former pilgrim brother by the name of Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It could not be rightfully said that the declaration was unanimously adopted, even though Brother Balzereit later notified Brother Rutherford that it had been.
The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took 2,100,000 copies of the "declaration" home with them, however, and made fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in positions of responsibility. The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a letter that, in part, read:
"The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80 years' imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda against Germany."
Even though the declaration had been weakened and many of the brothers could not wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and started a wave of persecution against those who had distributed it.
suggested changes
Initially, in 1934, the head of the German Jehovah's Witnesses attempted to mollify the Nazis in response to denunciations for being too closely tied to America. He cahnged the wording of a resolution produced by the Jehovah's witnesses governing body so that it said they believed the "commercial Jews of the British-American Empire" were responsible for "exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations" but leaving in that Jehovah's Witnesses "have no interest in political affairs, but are wholly devoted to God's Kingdom under Christ His King." Nevertheless persecution of this group continued, in 1936 a world-wide body of Jehovah's Witnesses did pass a resolution strongly condemning the Nazi regime.
During the same time period this group was also persecuted in the United States and many other countries for similar reasons, mainly because they refused to serve in the military or otherwise get involved with the war effort. In Canada during that time, Jehovah's Witnesses were interned in concentration camps along with political dissidents and people of Japanese and Chinese descent. In the United States, the Supreme Court issued a series of landmark First Amendment rulings that permitted the Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse military service or recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
supplementary information
- AWAKE! 1998 7/8 pp. 13-14 Jehovah's Witnesses-Courageous in the Face of Nazi Peril ***
Having mentioned money, the "Declaration" went on to denounce unfair practices of big business. It said: "It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations."
This statement clearly did not refer to the Jewish people in general, and it is regrettable if it has been misunderstood and has given cause for any offense. Some have claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses shared the hostility toward the Jews that was commonly taught in the German churches at the time. This is absolutely untrue. By their literature and conduct during the Nazi era, the Witnesses rejected anti-Semitic views and condemned the Nazi mistreatment of the Jews. Certainly, their kindness toward Jews who shared their lot in the concentration camps provides a resounding rebuttal to this false accusation.
- AWAKE! 98 7/8 p. 14 Jehovah's Witnesses-Courageous in the Face of Nazi Peril ***
According to the account in the 1974 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, some German Witnesses were disappointed that the language of the "Declaration" was not more explicit in tone. Had the branch office manager, Paul Balzereit, weakened the text of the document? No, for a comparison of the German and the English texts shows that this is not the case. Evidently, an impression to the contrary was based on the subjective observations of some who were not directly involved in the preparation of the "Declaration." Their conclusions may also have been influenced by the fact that Balzereit renounced his faith only two years later
[Footnote]
Space does not allow us to supply full documentation for this historical account. However, a list of complete references is available upon request from the publishers.
I guess my "suggested changes" need a little "changing" themselves.
respectfully submitted george
A better way to say it?
Note the following are DEAD LINKS, 21 Dec 2004:
... perhaps this would be a better way to put the rather negative sounding thoughts in the "mollify" paragraph:
The Golden Age and Consolation magazines often drew attention to the militaristic stirrings in Germany. In 1929, more than three years before Hitler came to power, the German edition of The Golden Age boldly stated: "National Socialism is . . . a movement that is acting . . . directly in the service of man's enemy, the Devil."
On the eve of Hitler's taking power, The Golden Age of January 4, 1933, said: "There looms forth the menacing promontory of the National Socialist movement. It seems incredulous that a political party so insignificant in its origin, so heterodox in its policies, can, in the space of a few years, develop into proportions that overshadow the structure of a national government. Yet Adolf Hitler and his national socialist party (the Nazis) have accomplished this rare feat."
An Appeal for Understanding Hitler became prime minister of Germany on January 30, 1933, and a couple of months later, on April 4, 1933, the Magdeburg branch office of Jehovah's Witnesses was seized. However, the order was rescinded on April 28, 1933, and the property was returned. What would happen next?
In spite of the evident hostility of the Hitler regime, Jehovah's Witnesses organized a convention in Berlin, Germany, on June 25, 1933. Some 7,000 persons assembled. The Witnesses publicly made their intentions clear: "Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching the Word of Jehovah God to the people, and that without hindrance."
Thus Jehovah's Witnesses made a good-faith effort to state their case. What were the consequences? I recommend following the second link above to get an answer. The article as it stands does not reflect a NPOV. It defintely reflects opinion.
- These are good points. I myself was unaware of these views; I agree with you that these views also should be noted in the article, and thus make the article more balanced. RK 01:49, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Thank you Apologies for my emotional comments.
best regards, george m
What's this source?
Swiss theologian Karl Barth later wrote: "The accusation that Jehovah's Witnesses are linked with the Communists can only be due to an involuntary or even intentional misunderstanding."
Please teach me what is this source or reference, because it is said this article is POV in Japanese page.Rantaro 14:31, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Why is this page marked as being disputed?-george m
- I don't know. I think some people think this page is a advertisement article of Jehovah's Witnesses and it is not fact. In Japanese Wikipedia, Some people deny that JW met with Holocaust in Germany and they insist this is a fiction of JW. Rantaro 07:28, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I am removing the NPOV message since no one has responded to my queries on either this page or the Npov disputes page.george m
- Rantaro, the quote caome from the watchtower library . Search foR "Karl Barth" Also, use the references by historians especially the german ones in the "stand firm" & other videos.george m