Talk:Magnus III of Sweden

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Untitled[edit]

Dan, Yes, it's nobility. Coshery though is a very uncommon word in English meaning feasting. Is this what was outlawed? And if so I confess I don't see an obvious connection to locking a barn. Can you help me out? <G> -- Someone else

I surely dont know the term, this was written by someone else, I tried to make the explanation clearer, but like I said, I dont know the british word for armed groups of people who, misusing farmers hospitality, came in hords and demanded food. ,we call it in sweden something like violent visit. There is a theory that Magnus ended this "tradition", by signing a paper where this was prohibited. Dan Koehl

Ah, thanks for that, I can't think of an English term, something like pillage or plunder might do, but they are always illegal, and I gather coshery was not? Maybe somebody else will think of a good way to put it. -- Someone else 01:12 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

Våldgästning in Swedish is definitely not pillaging och plundering. My Swedish-English dictionary proposed coshery or to sorn upon someone. I don't know any other good words for it in English, but it is the tradition where noblemen would enter the house of a servant demanding to be feed. Not stealing food, or burning crops - but simply by force demanding a meal. -- Original Poster.

UPDATE: Eureka! I've found a good word for it: "sponging" !! Maybe it's a bit to rare of a word to be put in the main text. -- Original Poster.

That violent visit resembles forced quartering of troops in peasantry abodes. Marrtel 11:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could someoone provide the source of the king's genealogy? -- User:Kt2

A secondary printed source would be "Royal Families of Medieval Scandinavia, Flanders, and Kiev", by Rupert Alen and Anna Marie Dahlquist, Kings River Publications, 1997 [ISBN 0984126125 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum] --Someone else

See Europäische Stammtafeln, and an internet edition somewhere at genealogy.euweb.cz Marrtel 11:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

regnal number[edit]

Literature assigns different numerals to this ruler. (They did not use official ordinals in his time in Scandinavia.) If he is called Magnus I, there is a clear risk of confusion with his "usurper" predecessor also named Magnus. Whereas Magnus III, also used of him, is not confusing with any other monarch. (The only confusing thing may be that in that case, his grandson Magnus, who here is IV, is in some sources referred to as Magnus II. But it's not III, it is only a numeral smaller than III which is not easy to understand when a successor is in question. But, in this system, he is anyway IV.) Nicknames and such are too difficult to have correctly here, and I do not recommend their use in article name. Marrtel 20:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your are perfectly correct. The only acceptable number (and the only one used in Sweden) is Magnus III. Magnus I and Magnus II were both Danish princes who were recognized for short periods as King of Sweden or subtstantial enough parts thereof. It is also important to use English name versions for readability, whenever possible. In that you are also 100% correct. 217.21.225.53 (talk) 13:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Referring to Magnus Ladulås as Magnus I is an invention not recognized by any Swedish historians today", it says. Is there any reference to that the III is used? As far as I know, he is always just Magnus Birgersson or Magnus Ladulås in Swedish, never with a number. It does not seem correct to add a retroactive regnal number when "translating" the name./Coffeeshivers (talk) 22:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He is known as Magnus III in the English-speaking world and literature, which is more important to en.WP that what he is called in Swedish. Numerals are almost always used here, whereas not so often in Swedish for the older kings of that country. It is much easier for English readers to distinguish between rulers with numerals than that they be forced to try to figure out and learn the differences between phonetically obstructive Swedish words like like Birgersson or Ladulås. Very few know Swedish. English texts (as all others) need to be able to be read out loud, too, at times, preferably smoothly. Swedish historian Lars O. Lagerqvist, a respected expert, has established the numeral III for this king even in some of his Swedish-language works. SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:18, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ladislaus[edit]

From an edit summary by User:Donkey99

Question: I have never before seen the theory that Magnus' nickname was derived from Ladislaus -- that theory sound like it originates with Monty Python or Spamalot -- I have not made an edit but I a —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jao (talk • contribs) 08:33, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

The Ladislaus theory has appeared in several books by reputable Swedish historians in the latter decades of the 20th century. It is quite legitimate. 217.21.225.53 (talk) 13:12, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Roll-back[edit]

I rolled back 2 edits introducing fantasy images to the box. The contemporary bust is more useful than they. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:33, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regnal number[edit]

Which source establishes the regnal number III? I did not find it in any of the sources in the article that I could access. Swedish sources like the Riksarkiver, ne.se or Kungahuset do not give any regnal number. Swedish Wikipedia also does not use regnal numbers for medieval kings: sv:Lista över Sveriges regenter.

A pair of examples of English usage: Britannica calls him Magnus I. Cambridge History of Scandinavia call him Magnus Birgersson: [1] Based on Google Ngram, the most common name in English texts is Magnus Ladulås, but Magnus Birgersson is not uncommon either. (but of course Magnus I and Magnus III cannot be compared with due to Norwegian namesakes). Jähmefyysikko (talk) 11:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll answer to myself: Lars Lagerqvist assigns in his Kings and Rulers of Sweden : A Pocket Encyclopedia the number III for Magnus. However, even he gives it in parentheses since it is ahistorical: Magnus (III) Ladulås. He arrives to III by starting the count from Eric the Victorious, as explained in the introduction. Britannica seems to start the count from Eric the Lisp and Lame, thus arriving to a different number.

I did a search for the conventional English name. Looking at the Internet Archive library and searching for "Sweden + history", I find the following books which mention this king. Here are the names they use:

Magnus Ladulås: [2][3][4][5][6]
Both Magnus Ladulås and Magnus Birgersson ([7] and [8]),[9] (Magnus Birgersson in the chapter title, but Ladulås in the text)
Just Magnus (but Ladulås is mentioned): [10][11][12]

This is by no means an exhaustive survey, but to me it seems like the Magnus Ladulås is the WP:COMMONNAME, even in the English literature. Except for Lagerqvist, none of the sources above use the regnal numbers.

I will make a move request below. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 April 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Magnus III of Sweden be renamed and moved to Magnus Ladulås.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Magnus III of Sweden → Magnus Ladulås – Move per WP:COMMONNAME. I have studied some sources above (see #Regnal number 2), and most of them call him Magnus Ladulås. Some use the name Magnus Birgersson, and none use Magnus III without putting the number in parentheses. Magnus III is neither a common name, nor an official one. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Fine as is. Swedish-language sources do not count re: what he should be called in English. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above sources are in English. Even Debrett's Kings and Queens of Europe, which you endorse on your user page, calls him Ladulås. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC) [Ed. 18:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)][reply]
Indeed, here for example Magnus III refers to the king of Norway while the king of Sweden is called "Magnus I, Ladulås". Here he is also called Magnus Ladulås, and this is a good English-language source. Mellk (talk) 14:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is English Wikipedia, not Swedish Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 14:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The evidence presented shows that he is most usually called Magnus I Ladulås in English-language reliable sources. This also correlates with the authority control data and sources I've examined such as John Morby and Michael Maclagan. This appears to be another case of wikipedia forcing an unusual numeral without actually examining the sources. Magnus IV should also be looked at. DrKay (talk) 15:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Improvement over current title. Mellk (talk) 15:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]