Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Category:Jewish philosophers (Secular)

The following discussion comes from Wikipedia:Categories for deletion, where it is currently listed as unresolved. It may be reviewed again in the future in the light of evolving standards and guidelines for categorization.

Note: It seems that there was as least agreement that the current category needed to be moved (since the name does not follow established conventions). Category:Jewish philosophers (Secular) was deleted, but it is unclear whether the replacement, Category:Secular Jewish philosophers, should continue to exist. --Aranel ("Sarah") 21:09, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Category:Jewish philosophers (Secular)

A grouping of philosophers who merely happened to be of Jewish ethnicity. Postdlf 22:10, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm sort of torn about this one - I mean, yeah, we're talking about philosophers who just happen to be of Jewish descent, but it is a category you hear used fairly often, and unlike many other ethnicities, if we are talking about people who are raised Jewish and stopped being religious at some point in their life, there is a whole educational background that was likely a part of their growing up Jewish, and which likely affected their philosophy. -Seth Mahoney 01:11, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

Oppose deletion. Neutrality 03:26, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If kept, I think it needs to be renamed, perhaps to Jewish secular philosophers, or Secular jewish philosophers. The current name is horrid. Postdlf 03:35, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Secular Jewish philosophers sounds better to me, though Jewish Secular philosophers would alphabetize better. How about [[:Category:Secular Jewish philosophers|Jewish secular philosophers]]? I agree that parenthesis are not so good. -Seth Mahoney 05:13, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

Either way the title is confusing. Is it secular philosophers on Jewish issues or Jewish philosophers on secular issues? If we're talking about Jewish philosophers in general, they should be in Category:Jewish philosophers. Jewish philosophers whose focus is religious topics should be in something like Category:Jewish theologians. —Mike 06:06, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

• There is already Category:Philosophers of Judaism with many entries of religious figures (i.e. famous rabbis ) who were also philosophers. Please note: NOT all Jewish "theologians" were philosophers. The notion of "theology" is actually alien to Judaism. Some Jewish "theologians" were in fact completely anti-philosophical, such as those associated with Jewish mysticism and Hasidic Judaism, and other "theologians" were primarily legalists (Halakhists) and thus concerned purely with Jewish religious law and its texts. IZAK 08:49, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Unless they're philosophizing about Jewish topics, I don't see the use in the category other than to classify individuals by an ethnicity. Postdlf 07:26, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is the concern here primarily POV problem? In general I'm very impressed with the categorisation of philosophers. This category looks like it was created specifically to handle a distinction with philosophers who were working in the Jewish religious tradition. Much of the history of philosophy is based in religious thought and there are similar Buddhist, Christian and Muslim Philosophers categories. I don't think you can introduce 'theologian' into the mix because many of these philosophers were working on wider issues - see the article on Scholasticism for an example of the interplay of different (religious) traditions of philosophy in metaphysics as well as theology.

I would suspect that the problem was due to not having a separate word for Jewish (religion) and Jewish (ethnicity), but the category description makes it clear that 'Jewish philosophers (Secular)' is seen as a cohesive movement in the broader Jewish tradition. Perhaps ask User:Lucidish and User:IZAK for additional input. -- Solipsist 23:56, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If the concern is a naming issue, I agree it would be nice to avoid the brackets. Category:Jewish secular philosophers would seem like a good suggestion, but you would also have to handle 'Jewish philosophers (Judaism)' and Category:Jewish Judaism philosophers is awkward. -- Solipsist 23:56, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If necessary, I'm sure Category:Jewish philosophers or Category:Jewish religious philosophers would do fine. -Seth Mahoney 17:38, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

• Note: Category:Jewish philosophers was left deliberately BROAD, and it is in fact the "umbrella category" for two sub-categories: Category:Philosophers of Judaism. It includes the primarily "religious" philosophers, and Category:Secular Jewish philosophers, that allows for inclusion of those philosophers who were Jewish by birth (i.e. ethnically) yet whose writings may not have been connected to Judaism as such and in fact was often opposed to the classicial teaching of Judaism and the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). IZAK 09:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The concern was how to categorize those philosophers who were Jewish by birth or ethnicity, and who are many times nevertheless linked to the broader impact of Jews on history and the ideas or philossophies of these thinkers that shaped the world. IZAK 08:49, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Meta: I think this question is an integral part of the "Problematic categorization of persons" argument. This discussion should probably get moved to /unresolved. It seems to me we need to have a dedicated policy discussion on this topic, and we'll need to attract attention from the wider community somehow. -- Beland 01:11, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I think the category is useful. I'd rename it Category:Secular Jewish philosophers and parallel it with Category:Religious Jewish philosophers. -- Jmabel 07:48, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

• Jmabel: The problem would be, that many of the classical "Religious Jewish philosophers" dealt largely with "secular philosophy" as well, they made no distinction - such as Maimonides in the Middle Ages and Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik in modern times (and in fact they were ostracized for doing so). So it is incorrect to posit that the Jewish religious scholars were "not" secular philosphers because that is just not true. They occupied themselves with the full range of Aristotilian issues or the philosophy of Kant or Goethe or Hermann Cohen for example. So the isssues are quite complex here. IZAK 09:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone really explain the difference between "Secular Jewish philosophers" and "Jewish secular philosophers"? They seem identical to me. IZAK 08:49, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)