Talk:Till Death Us Do Part

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Untitled[edit]

The show was not called Till Death Us Do Part but Til . . . (one l). Til is actually a shorted version of Until. (source: BBC scripts) FearÉIREANN 01:50 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

JTD, I'm certain you are wrong about this. "Till" is just as valid an English word as "Until". The BBC web site and the books based on the scripts all use the "Till" spelling, and this is how I remember it from the days when I used to watch it regularly (oh yes, I'm o-o-o-old). Is it possible it was originally meant to be "Til", but was changed to "Till to reflect the more usual spelling? Deb 18:25 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I always presumed it was till but the BBC was certain it was til which does ring a bell. I remember something struck me about the spelling but I could remember what it was. I guess we better go with the BBC claim unless we can prove it is otherwise. FearÉIREANN 18:36 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Much as I hate to be difficult, I've been searching for any evidence at all to back up your version of the name, and can't find anything. Can you quote a source? Deb 19:17 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

BBC email. FearÉIREANN 19:50 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't disbelieve you, but I fail to see why they would have references to "Till Death Us Do Part" (and none to "Til", etc) on their web site and why they would name a book about the series which they have published as "Till Death Us Do Part" if the series was really called "Til Death Us Do Part". I think the person who replied to your e-mail must have made a mistake. Deb 19:42 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No. The archives name it as that. They didn't say it but I suspect it was originally planned to be named 'til death us do part, which is how it correctly is written. But commas are alkward to use in programme titles, especially in the pre-computer graphics age when the lettering was often blurred and a comma could look like a bit of dirt rather than part of the name.

Shows do often evolve, with myths becoming reality. Captain Kirk in Star Trek, for example, never ever said "beam me up, Scotty". In politics, then Taoiseach Jack Lynch is supposed to have said "we will not stand Idly by" in a TV broadcast if Northern Ireland begun to descend into civil war. In reality he never said it. He actually said "we will never stand by". The idly is an utter fiction that is widely believed to be fact. (People even swear to have heard him say it but the archive tape shows that he never did!)

The confusion can be seen even with Johnny Speight, its creator, who published stuff about the series under both ' Til and Till. Part of the complexity comes from the difference between American english (where till is standard, and British english where 'til or til was more standard. But cross fertilisation of language has meant what was standard BE when the series first started isn't now. I remember many years ago on BBC a row when someone wrote in to point out that BBC1 advertised the series as till. The letterwriter wrote in to say that was wrong, and the BBC said "opps. Someone spelt the name wrongly in the caption. It should of course have read ' til." (That was actually the first time I heard of a programme!)

All I know is that the guy in the BBC said that the earliest series he could find is down as 'til, not Till, it coming from the wedding vow "'til death us do part". But If Till is written enough times instead of Til or 'til it comes to be accepted whether it was or not the original word. In addition the phrase from the wedding vow is widely used elsewhere; from an episode of Star Trek:Deep Space 9 to a 1948 stage play and a 1994 TV play. So Till may well have evolved as a form of disambigulation to distinguish the series from other broadcasts using that phrase.

Below are just some of the websites that use til. They include sites about actors who were in the series, BBC News sites, BBCi sites, BBC Radio 4 sites and sites from people and organisations in the broadcast community, many of whom I suspect approached the BBC archives to find out what name to use.

We already have a redirect from Till so I think what we should do is leave it on this page (as it appears to be how the show was originally called (as the early shows are all lost, what the graphics called it then is a mystery, but the sites seeking out old editions call them til!) and explain in the opening paragraph that there appears to be widespread confusion over which was the original name, with even the BBC in different areas calling it different versions of the name. FearÉIREANN 22:41 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

BTW - of the original people who would know, Speight and most of his team are dead. Mitchell I saw once call it 'till in an article while Booth was so drunk he cannot even remember shooting much of it. I don't know Una Stubbs' opinion on the name, but one site linked to her called it 'til. FearÉIREANN 22:45 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Hum. Okay then. Deb 10:25 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Possible clincher[edit]

British DVD releases make it clear that from the pilot episode on the ON SCREEN TITLE was always ‘TILL DEATH US DO PART’. Surely this article should be based on the 'actual title' that was used and NOT what it "should" have been!!! Lee M 00:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Monkees[edit]

I have unilaterally decided that at least one of the Monkees must have known the meaning of "randy Scouse git", because Davy Jones is English. But I suppose he might have led a sheltered life. Andy G 22:50, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

He was from Manchester ;-)

He had actually been living in the US (going initially to appear on Broadway) since 1962/3 and probably would not have seen the show till he arrived in the UK with the Monkees on their first 1967 visit to the UK.

Interesting notes: The song "Randy Scouse Git" does not feature those words in the lyric. Nor do the lyrics have any relation to the notion conveyed by the song title. Dolenz simply liked the sound of the words and used it as the title for a song that he had not yet named.

The song was released as "Randy Scouse Git" in the US - probably to much mystification. Perhaps the US fans thought that the title was related to the "psychedelic" vogue of the time (the "Summer Of Love") In any event - it did not impede its US chart success. It reached #2 in the singles chart.

Randy is a boys name in the US. 'Horny Scouse Jerk' would have been banned.14.202.248.58 (talk) 22:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

I have made 2 minor amendments -

  1. saying Powell was "notorious" for his views, suggests those views are immoral or reprehsible. I know that was the series' view but it should not be an encyclopædia's view.
  2. saying Alf's father held "unenlightened" views towards black people is also POV about those views. I have made changes though I think the article still makes it clear that it heartily agrees with Speight's POV. Avalon 04:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will leave those edits as they are - though the dictionary definition of "notorious" would seem to cover Powell's views without a moral judgement. The views certainly excited controversy - and not just from his political opponents in the Labour and Liberal Parties. He was dismissed from the Shadow Cabinet by Conservative Party leader Edward Heath because of what Heath said were Powell's reprehensible views on race. That almost universal condemnation (including by most of his own party) raises his position to the level of "notorious" without it being a POV. But I'll leave your change for the sake of comity.

I have correctly noted that Powell was a right-wing Conservative (a label that Powell accepted) and that his opposition to immigration was strong. (An understatement!) Davidpatrick 05:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Powell had a strong opposition to immigration, although his best speech ever to the House was over the Mau Mau killings, some 10yrs before (something the politically correct conveniently overlook.) Alf's racism and politics are always infantile and are held up to ridicule and the flawed logic exposed by the other characters. Alf's admiration of Powell is then really a criticism by the writer. While Alf holds great admiration for Churchill, the 1968 movie about Alf's war years, shows him mercilessly bagging Churchill. Alf's infantilism through the series has not been sufficiently exposed in the article.14.202.248.58 (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Till Death[edit]

This article claims Mike and Rita divorced during the spin off Till Death. Can anyone confirm this H.J. Bellamy 01:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They were still married during Till Death... they acutally divorced in the second sequel In Sickness and in Health. Golden User (Gold Hearted) 16:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About the title (but not "till" versus "til")[edit]

That's funny, I've always remembered this as "Til death do us part". Oh well, my bad!
138.243.129.4 23:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Archaic grammar does that to you I guess, it is from the Anglican marriage vows - see the Notes section in the article for the full details. --86.164.126.9 (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a Notes section. Must have been deleted. Too bad, as "till death" sounds like a plowing fatality to me. :-) StuRat (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other remakes?[edit]

I seem to recall the existence of a Hong Kong remake but can't seem to find it anywhere.--74.102.135.71 23:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Found it. Never mind.--74.102.135.71 23:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Tunbridge Wells[edit]

I recall the show as a child my mothers view was that the working class bigoted racists portrade were an equally large part of the ordiance. My view is they new they were being ridiculed but enjoyed and were encouraged by it. When Warren Mitchell did his show in Tunbridge Wells Assembly Hall it seemed to me that most of the ordiance were the types he was riducling, they new that and cheered at the language to a point were it was presumably embarassing for Warren Mitchell and he backed off substantial. I have written more at http://motiveandchange.pbwork.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.187.132 (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the point that Speight himself made about Alf Garnett's views was that any reasonably intelligent and reasonably educated person could see that Alf was an ill-educated idiot, a type of person common in the area of London Speight grew up in, and that the only people who thought that Alf's views were reasonable were just the sort of ignorant bigots that Alf was modelled on.
The problem with any programme like this one, or Love Thy Neighbour, is that the people being poked-fun-at are quite likely not the sort of people capable of seeing the joke, which goes right over their heads - rather like an aeroplane. Most people could, which is why, despite the latter-day political correctness's vilification of the two named shows, they were so popular at the time. Alf Garnett, like Eddie Booth, was an idiot, and in Speight's scripts, he was treated as-such, helped greatly by Warren Mitchell's superb acting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.56.218 (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Differences from All in the Family[edit]

Shouldn't this section be on the All in the Family page? It somewhat assumes people reading this article would be more familiar with the US remake. I suggest moving this section to the All in the Family page where it's more relevant.Gymnophoria (talk) 23:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Racist show[edit]

Should it not be mentioned that this TV series pandered to racism, and that most people watched it because they agreed with Alf's views. Many children were abused at school because of this series. (92.11.205.135 (talk) 15:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC))[reply]

The bits about the show being a favourite of racists could have been written by Germaine Greer. It is one of usual her ravings. She raves on about Love Thy Neighbour similarly. That's why there're no references. The first and only principle of Greerology is to make outrageous assertions off the cuff. It no adversary bothers to show the assertion is wrong, then is considered to be an axiom of Greerology. It is the antithesis of science where the asserter is the one who has the burden of proof. Given the volume of study material available, you'd think some researcher could actually do a formal statistical evaluation of such assertions.14.202.248.58 (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Two identical "Till Death Us Do Part"'s--a distinction without a difference?[edit]

The title opens, "Till Death Us Do Part . . . Not to be confused with Till Death Do Us Part."

What is the difference between "Till Death Us Do Part" and "Till Death Us Do Part"? Notwithstanding the admonition, I'm very confused!

Is this a leftover from the Great Till/'Til Debate?

(Christopher Karl Johansen)—Xojo (talk) 23:41, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Racism/Xenophobia[edit]

Some reference ought be made to how the programme is perceived today (and indeed, may have been at the time). The show itself cannot be taken in isolation; it deserves some broader context. Moreover, the fact that it often savaged the most vulnerable and defenceless members of society is itself worthy of a line or two. Anyone doubting its worst excesses should check out "A surplus of coons" on YouTube. Not advocating 'political correctness' - we are, after all, simply stating bare facts - though the fact remains that this stuff was highly offensive and hurtful to many, and that should be said. Hanoi Road (talk) 11:46, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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