Talk:Ethnic pornography

Splitting the article

The article has become a piling of three separate topics, namely ethnic stereotypes in pornography, interracial pornography, and the concept of racial fetishism. A gallery that merely serves visual appeal had been added to justify this piling but the title of the article is not consistent with the content of either sections. I propose the article be divided into three separate ones as per their proper subject matters. Behemoth (talk) 14:21, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Doesn't meet WP:WHENSPLIT. The three section topics do appear to be part of the article topic - see Pornography: film and culture by Peter Lehman. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Comedy?

This article seems to have been written by a particularly inept and naive person, possibly making a clumsy attempt at humor... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.71.240 (talk) 23:49, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Race?

Race is a void and meaningless word if one describes difference in appearance, e.g. skin colour; regardless of what US legislation says. When a male and a female are able to produce offspring which is also fertile then it follows that those aforementioned two are of the same race (human -> i.e. earthlings - not uranian, saturnan, venusian or martian). Don't blindly believe me (i am european and used to be a dirty commie): check the facts. Sintermerte (talk) 04:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Very true. The article is inherently racist (as is the phenomenon described in the article). --Anvilaquarius (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: do not move: majority after 48 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

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Ethnic pornography → Interracial pornography – Who uses 'Ethnic pornography' anyway? --Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC) --173.76.108.247 (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment the article seems to say that "interracial" is a subtopic of "ethnic", thereby, foreigners or visible ethnicities not the predominant ethnicities would therefore qualify, and if its just between members of the same minority it wouldn't be interracial. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 05:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose As I understand it, "ethnic pornography" would refer to any sort of pornography fetishizing people because of their race or ethnicity. I admit that this isn't a phrase you really see, but "interracial porn" would logically refer to depictions of sex acts between two or more people of different races. They're separate topics, albeit related. --BDD (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support I agree with BDD that there could potentially be an interesting article on "ethnic pornography", but this article's content doesn't really match that title. As currently written, the article is essentially solely focussed on interracial pornography. The proposal more accurately titles the article's content as it now exists. Xoloz (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• SupportI agree with Xoloz assessment. Dwanyewest (talk) 02:31, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose History of the article shows it was originally intended to cover both ethnic and interracial porn. Over time, the ethnic part seems to have been mostly removed (I haven't looked to see why, but presume it was simply a matter of the personal interests of later editors). As for who uses the term "ethnic pornography", take a look at one of the first cited sources (and one of the few academic sources), Pornography: Film and Culture. It would be better to rename the article "Ethnic and interracial pornography", to more clearly describe that the article is intended to cover those two different, but often closely related topics. Dezastru (talk) 15:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
• I came in here thinking I'd oppose, but upon reading the page I must support the move as reflecting the contents. What is 'ethnic porn' anyway? Is it any porn with a nonwhite pairing in action? Two Asians? Wouldn't be considered 'ethnic' in Japan. Really the only independently notable sub genre at issue is interracial, though a ton of work is yet to be added to make this whole even on that score. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose current title is more encyclopedic and a better description of the article's scope, per user:BDD, user:Dezastru and others above. ^walk victor falk ^talk 23:55, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose the abbreviated "porn" as non-scholarly. Abbreviations should be avoided. No objection to "Interracial pornography". Agree that the focus is on race, not ethnicity. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:03, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: Fixed. --173.76.108.247 (talk) 03:45, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support. No objection to the un-abbreviated proposal. Agree that the focus of the article is on race, not ethnicity. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support article is about interracial pornography --Երևանցի ^talk 22:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. It would appear that that current title is correct. Even the article relegates interracial pornography to it's own heading recognizes this fact. I suppose the question not asked is should the interracial pornography material be split out since it is a significant topic? But that does not require an RM discussion. I will add that changing to interracial would mean that two races are required. The current article does not limit itself to that concept, except in the area of interracial pornography. So the two titles are not interchangeable. Vegaswikian (talk) 16:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, agree with Vegaswikian. The scope of this article is ethnic pornography, rather than the narrower topic interracial pornography, and it's an encyclopedic topic and should be covered. The fact that the latter term is more commonly used is quite irrelevant, as it doesn't accurately describe the article scope. And the current redir to section works well, there doesn't really seem enough material in the section on interracial pornography to justify a split, but it's borderline and wouldn't matter a great deal. Just summarise the section and leave the summary and a {{main|interracial pornography}} link there. Andrewa (talk) 02:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, but article needs clarification; ti gives the first impression it's about interracial erotica, not ethnic erotica more generally. That said, the "pornography" title is a WP:NPOV problem, because it's a very judgmental Victorian concept that devalues art and expression simply because of the topic. This should be moved to ethnic erotica, and a lot of other moves made along with it, but that'll surely have to be for another day.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Content split request

The article is an incoherent piling of two separate and vaguely related subjects: a (primarily American) pornographic niche and a postcolonial theory. Meets the criteria for Wikipedia:CONSPLIT Ahriman2014 (talk) 20:25, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Note to other editors

I have drafted additional information to "Controversy in American Pornography" and "Interracial Pornography" to the page "Ethnic Pornography" in my user sandbox.

Link to user/MHayashi95/sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mhayashi95/sandbox

Mhayashi95 (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)MarieHayashi (talk)

Mhayashi95 (talk · contribs), I see that you are with Education Program:University of Illinois/Queer Lives, Queer Politics (Fall 2014), and are working on the ethnic pornography aspect in your WP:Sandbox. Your WP:Sandbox is the place for all of that material, not the talk page. If you want editors to know about your WP:Sandbox on this matter, all you have to do is start a section on this talk page about it, explaining it, and then link to the WP:Sandbox. You've already started this section and linked to your WP:Sandbox; so that will suffice for letting other editors know about your work on this case. Flyer22 (talk) 07:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for cutting back your talk page content, Mhayashi95 (talk · contribs). Flyer22 (talk) 16:23, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on Ethnic pornography

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Definition of "interracial" within the porn industry

Quotes from "Why Porn’s ‘Interracial’ Label Is Racist" by The Daily Beast:

• "In theory, interracial porn could refer to sex between people of different races—but it doesn’t. The term “interracial” has a much different connotation when applied to adult entertainment. Within the porn vernacular, the term interracial denotes black and white and refers mostly to black guy/white girl action."
• "consumers searching for “interracial” movies have come to expect black guy/white woman action, especially when they see titles like White is the New Black or Interracial Cougar Cuckold. Insiders say that to update and/or change how porn categorizes interracial now might be too confusing for consumers."
• "If interracial means black guy and white girl in the world of porn, what about scenes between Asians, Latinas, and the rest of the racial rainbow? “In porn, they don’t count it as interracial unless a black man is in it,” says Asian porn star Cindy Starfall. “So, even though for me everyone I work with is interracial because I’ve never had an Asian co-star, it’s not labeled as interracial.”"

Quotes from "Adult star Janice Griffith reveals the racist secrets of porn marketing" by Fusion:

• "Just as “Creampie” and “MILF” mean something very definite, so too does “IR” porn: it’s invariably a black man and a white woman—or a white enough woman.“When it comes to shooting women performers of color, it depends on what color you are. How racist is that?” Griffith asks. “It doesn’t matter if you’re Asian, or Latina, or Native American, or indigenous to anywhere as long as you’re not dark,” Griffith says, suggesting that porn makes whiteness a capacious term. While Latina, Asian or meso-Caribbean women may be performing in a scene, “inter-racial” never refers to anything but black men and “white” women. Black women, dark skinned or light skinned, as always relegated to the “ebony” category. As elastic as it is toward whiteness, the adult industry can only see one shade of IR."

Quotes from "Porn's Race Problem" by Vocativ:

• "The term “interracial” porn is misleading—hence the scare quotes—because it generally isn’t applied to scenes between a white woman and, say, an Asian man. “It simply means ‘a black person,’” says Isiah Maxwell, an African-American performer. And, Maxwell says, it can simply mean a black man, regardless of the woman’s race." Rebecca1990 (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. This is a promotional usage that conflicts with standard usage, that's disputed, that's criticized as racist, and which even by the majority of the sources you cite, is not described as universal or accepted outside the marketing context. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 18:37, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

I think the sources demonstrate that this view exists and merits inclusion in the article. Which secondary sources can you present that use the broader definition?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would suggest using Academic sources rather than magazine type sources. There is a significant literature on porn studies, and within that literature a lot of studies of race in porn. I am not familiar with the literature myself but here are some links: ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Cowan, Gloria, and Robin R. Campbell. "Racism and Sexism in Interracial Pornography A Content Analysis." Psychology of Women Quarterly 18, no. 3 (1994): 323-338.
  • Williams, Linda. Porn studies. Duke University Press, 2004. (chapter on interracial porn)
  • Cowan, G., 1995. Black and White (and blue): Ethnicity and pornography.
  • Bernardi, Daniel. "Interracial Joysticks: Pornography’s Web of Racist Attractions’." Pornography: Film and culture (2006): 220-43.
  • Bernardi, D. (2007). Racism and Pornography: Evidence, Paradigms, and Publishing. Cinema Journal, 116-121.
  • Cream, White Dicks, Black Chicks, and White Trash. "Skin Flicks on the Racial Border: Pornography, Exploitation, and Interracial Lust." Porn Studies (2004): 271.
  • Neal, Jarrett. "Let's Talk about Interracial Porn." The Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide 20, no. 4 (2013): 23.
  • DaCosta, Kimberly McClain. "Interracial Intimacy on the Commodity Frontier." At the Heart of Work and Family: Engaging the Ideas of Arlie Hochschild (2011): 228.

I'm going to agree that we should be relying more on scholarly articles considering much has been written about this topic. Also discuss the topic in a global matter and not limit it to heterosexual pornography in the United States. Isn't there an interracial genre in homosexual pornography whether it's male-male or female-female? What about in Japan? Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• It's easy enough to find relevant scholarly sources which put the lie to the disputed claim: Here's one which not only deals with gay sex but uses "interracial" to describe white-Asian male-male sexual enounters.[1] As one of the sources cited by Rebecca1990 actually states, this is a usage propagated by "most sites that sell or host pirated clips of porn", not a general usage; marketing shorthand like this has no more place in detrmining how an encyclopedia categorizes or defines terms than the shelf tags in my local Duane Reade have in our handling of pharmaceuticals. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by admins since 2006. (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Here's what I added to the article: "Interracial pornography refers to sex scenes featuring a white woman and a black man. Sex scenes featuring performers of different races, none of them being a black male, aren't referred to as interracial. Scenes featuring a black man with a woman who is neither black nor white are also labeled as interracial if the woman has light skin. Pornography featuring black women is categorized as "ebony" instead of interracial." Considering Morbidthoughts's comments above and his edit summary's on this article, perhaps we can reword the above to (changes in CAPS): "Interracial pornography USUALLY refers to sex scenes featuring a white woman and a black man. Sex scenes featuring performers of different races, none of them being a black male, aren't OFTEN referred to as interracial. Scenes featuring a black man with a woman who is neither black nor white CAN also labeled as interracial if the woman has light skin. Pornography featuring black women is COMMONLY categorized as "ebony" instead of interracial." This usage of the word "interracial" was not made up by porn piracy sites as insinuated above. The fact that AVN and XBIZ regularly reports that a certain porn star has made her interracial debut in a film while there are prior performances of her with either black women and/or Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, etc. of any gender is proof of this. The use of "interracial" as white female/black male is common knowledge within porn, so there is no need for AVN/XBIZ to explain in their articles "So-and-so has shot her first interracial scene with a black male for whatever film/studio. Although she has shot with black females before, as well as Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, etc. of both genders, this is her first scene with a black male." AVN/XBIZ simply states "So-and-so has shot her first interracial scene for whatever film/studio" because it is already implied that they are referring to her first scene with a black male. This has been turned into a semantics argument with no regard for context, which is what matters here. Rebecca1990 (talk) 22:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

But why is it so important to mention the actress' first scene with a black male? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.130.129.198 (talk) 09:28, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

This source I feel will be useful to anyone interested [2]. Dwanyewest (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

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Ebony as a pornographic sub genre : white man/black women scene?

I've remarked that majority of ebony video feature white men/black women scene but aren't counted as interracial. Same with asian (unlike japanese) video which include mostly white men and asian women but again the "interracial" label isn't involved. Maybe we should made a section explaining the confusion between interracial relationship in pornography and the "interacial" label — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:6B8E:EE00:E0B9:A851:F39F:15D4 (talk) 11:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Blacked porn in japan

Japan has a whole catagory of blacked porn (Black dude on japanese chicks) with the same type of racial dynamics and afrophobia that exists in the US. Primarly about their irrational fear of black military personal even though history has nothing to show for it. We could probably add it to this page. Just a thought.2603:7000:1F00:6B91:571:CD97:ED0A:E80 (talk) 01:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

External links

That section is in need of a clean up. Thoughts on moving forward? --Surv1v4l1st ^{╠Talk║Contribs╣} 01:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

External links

There are six entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links.
• WP:ELCITE: access dates are not appropriate in the external links section. Do not use {{cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section. -- Otr500 (talk) 21:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Persian miniature

https://wellcomecollection.org/works/ujks8n8n?wellcomeImagesUrl=/indexplus/image/L0033278.html

It is specifically stated in the source that this image depicts a Persian couple. It is therefore not an example of inter - ethnic or inter - racial pornography. 2600:100C:B0A2:8671:0:B:1C07:E901 (talk) 03:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)