Talk:Oda Nobunaga

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Pop Culture section[edit]

I believe the pop culture section as it stood was sufficient to demonstrate the influence and presence of Nobunaga in multiple media, whether film, music, manga, anime, etc. The latest good-faith addition (Nounagun) seems a minor comic, and Nobunaga himself plays an invisible role. Adding any more to the "fictive portrayals" pushes undue weight. In this case, the contributors can not seem to reference it properly. If the contributors feel that strongly, they can add it to the already unwieldy list at People of the Sengoku period in popular culture. All future pop references should probably be added there. - Boneyard90 (talk) 17:11, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nobunagun seems a minor comic? How is it any more minor, than any of the other mentioned series?
"and Nobunaga himself plays an invisible role"
That is utterly false. Your claim is, frankly, laughable. One that is, frankly, more true (not true, but closer to being true) of several of the other mentions in the section.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
True, I based my claims on the descriptions on this page and on that page. If my statement were in error, then the descriptions are inadequate. So, not convinced that it's anything other than a minor comic, and not convinced that the pop culture section needs yet another bit of manga minutiae. As I pointed out, there's a whole page devoted to the pop-trivia you want to add. I'll even make sure to add that page to the See also section here. - Boneyard90 (talk) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Added it to top of In pop culture section, as a header. - Boneyard90 (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
... Well there are some examples, and I agree that not all works need to be mentioned ...and I much prefer that Nobunagun isn't mentioned, rather than having it misrepresented, so this is certainly better than how it was.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then I'm glad we could arrive at an amicable conclusion. - Boneyard90 (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The map of Nobunagas conquest by 1582[edit]

I believe the map displaying Japan in the Azuchi-Momoyama period is slightly wrong. The map displays the Mōri and Uesugi clan as conquered or vassalized by the Oda or Toyotomi by 1582. My understanding is that Mōri still muplitple provinces in Chūgoku following the peace with Toyotomi after Nobunagas death. And Uesugi controlled most of Echigo seeing as Shibata Katsuie had conquered Uozu castle three days before Nobunagas death. The map also shows Suruga province as being controlled by Oda/Toyotomi, I believe the province fell under Tokugawas control following the fall of Takeda.

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Niccolò Portrait[edit]

The portrait of Oda 'by Giovanni Niccolò' merits further investigation. It's pretty clearly not an Edo/Renaissance period portrait; from what I can tell from the full version on the Yamagata Prefecture website, the image currently on Wikipedia is, perhaps, a Meiji-era photograph of a charcoal sketch or grisaille underpainting. I would also buy that it's simply a Meiji-era portrait photograph of a contemporary man. The subject does seem to be wearing his hair in a chonmage style quite similar to the one in the painted portrait by Kano Soshu, which would have been less in fashion by the Meiji era. There's a more complete version of the portrait on that site which shows a clear vignette effect around his bust; there's a suggestion of strokes of charcoal but they could just be caused by shadows if it is a photograph.

English sources don't have much to say about this portrait other than what the current Wikipedia caption already says, and I don't speak Japanese, but as far as I can tell the claim on the Yamagata website is that the original portrait is housed by Sampo-Ji Temple in Tendo City (which is the information given by the current caption, just spelled differently). The claim is that the portrait was commissioned after his death by Oda Nobunaga's son Nobukatsu, and the artist may have been Giovanni Niccolò or may have been an unrelated Portuguese missionary. It's not impossible that this is in fact the case, but the fashion in Renaissance portraiture was just so different from the style exhibited here that I think it's worth investigation - ideally by an actual Japanese art historian.

This video (feat. Ken Watanabe!) from a 2001 episode of Do You Really Know About It?! seems to feature some discussion of the portrait itself. Magpieras (talk) 23:50, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fake Portrait[edit]

A black and white photograph is shewn as being a 16th century portrait.

The claim is that it is a Portrait of Oda Nobunaga (1534–1582) by Giovanni_Niccolò.

It is most certainly fake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga#/media/File:Oda Nobunaga Portrait Sanpoji Temple c1582-1586.jpg

--MythicalAlien (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Most correct spelling and italicization of "daimyo"[edit]

This word is spelled, capitalized, and italicized inconsistently in different sections of the article:

daimyō (infobox, lede, "Consolidation of clan leadership", "Historical Context", "Policies", "Prominent people of the Sengoku period")

daimyo (lede, "Omi campaign and march to Kyoto", "Seige of Mount Hiei", "Historical Context", "Categories")

Daimyô ("Conflict with Azai and Akasura")

Should one version be preferred over the others in this article?

Per MOS:FOREIGN: "Use italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that are not current in English."

In this article daimyō is by far the most common version. This version uses Hepburn romanization, with the macron over the "o". The alternative version spelled daimyo is the one used for words which have been adopted into English (which is not the case here; daimyo is not in the OED) and for printing environments where the macron is not available. The alternative version spelled Daimyô, with the circumflex accent over the "o", is the version used for printing environments where the macron is not available but the circumflex accent is.

N.B. I consulted the Daimyo article for guidance and there found these versions of the word:

daimyo (throughout body of article)

daimyo (caption for Date Tanemune illustration)

daimyō (captions for Ode Nobunaga and Kamei Koremi illustrations, Nobility of Nations table)

In that article daimyo is by far the most common version.

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 06:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So I found this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Japan-related_articles/UTF-8_conversion that seems to come to a consensus that daimyo does not need any diacritic since it is fully adopted in English (note, this may not apply for other words/names). We may want to, for clarity, say at the beginning that it is pronounced like daimyō, but use daimyo for the rest of the article. I'm not sure about the italics, and I'm currently looking for other sources on that matter.
Lonely-crab (talk) 17:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. The knowledgeable participants in the discussion you found take it for granted that daimyo is fully adopted in English, so per MOS:FOREIGN no diacritic (or italicization) is needed. Thank you!
Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

items of samurai that is equipped with his finger for using a bow[edit]

What??? Would correct this, but do not even understand what it's supposed to mean... 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:5864:DB7C:BC57:F688 (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that a yugote or kote is the guard which covers the forearm of an archer's bow arm so the forearm is not skinned by the bowstring when the arrow is released. I modified the article accordingly.
Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 04:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Role of fire in the death of Nobunaga[edit]

In the "Honnō-ji incident" section, the temple was set on fire by Nobunaga's retainer at Nobunaga's request so that Nobunaga's attacking enemies could not recover his body after he committed seppuku.

In the "Historical context" section, the temple was set on fire by Nobunaga's treacherous retainers and Nobunaga committed seppuku to escape the flames.

Can the inconsistency between these accounts be resolved?

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 04:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date query[edit]

What is the significance of showing both Old and New Style dates? The Gregorian Calendar (which the Japanese didn't even adopt until over 3 centuries later) did not come into existence until October 1582, which was after Oda's death. The Gregorian Calendar was NOT retroactive, so converting from Julian to Gregorian for any event before October 1582 is meaningless.

But if there is some rational reason for showing the conversion for his birth date, why not also for his death date? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:29, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Misuse of 'literal translation'[edit]

This article has a fair few examples of describing something as a 'literal translation' when the translation isn't literal. For example, '(三日天下, lit. 'a short-lived reign') literally means 'a three-day reign'. (槍衾, lit. 'line of spears') literally means a bed of spears. (一銭斬り, lit. 'Cutting people for a penny') literally means 'killing for one-hundredth of a yen'. Not a big deal but it felt strange to see idiomatic translations presented as literal. I think the literal translation may be more interesting to a reader. 133.106.177.57 (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will add that the reason I'm not editing it myself is that I'm not sure how the topic of translations is supposed to be handled properly. Otherwise I would. :) 133.106.177.57 (talk) 00:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Fool of Owari"[edit]

Hello,

I'm new to Wikipedia: I subscribed just to correct the mistake about the "fool of Owari". Nobunaga's nickname is attributed to the book The Making of Modern Japan (page 11). Actually, I have the book under my eyes and - as you can check - there is no such mention at all.

The mention should be removed. Akaranami (talk) 18:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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