Talk:History of skiing

Cul-de-sac links—2003

The amount of cul-de-sac links should really be cut down

Egil 10:57 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

When?—2004

Removed the comments: "When?" after the following as clearly should be in discussion not article:

In Austria centers of skiing activities were Mürzzuschlag and Semmering. When???

In the 19th century the Telemark ski revolutionized alpine skiing, being the first ski with a remarkable waist making it much easier for skiers to turn. When???

Dainamo 18:24, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deleted the sentence: In Austria centers of skiing activities were Mürzzuschlag and Semmering. and put a sentence concerning the first ski ascent of a significant mountain in the Mürzzuschlag/Semmering region (1891) in the chronological list. Crampon 21:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ancient types of Skis

The terms are propably obsolete of wrong. "West siberian Ugro-Lapp" ski type for example. Which people are "Ugro-Lapp" referring? If this means Lapps (Sami people) used this type, how is this type West Siberian? Lapps are far away from West Siberia. According to modern science it is very questionable to claim even their ancestors are from there. Lapps have been living in Fennoscandia for thousands of years. And if "Ugro" means the (eastern) "ugric" branch of Fenno-Ugric languages, it still makes no sense. None of the Fenno-ugric speakers lives in any part of Siberia. (It is a wider language family, the Uralic languages, who has a group of speakers (Samoyeds) in Siberia.) It makes no sense to claim that a type historically used by people who are not located in Siberia is "west siberian type". 193.65.112.51 16:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

So are the first indications of the existence of skis 5000 or 8000 years old? Junglehungry (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the Holmenkollen Ski Museum recent investigations and C14 analyses have pushed the evidence of skis back from 5000 to 8000 BCE, but I have so far only seen their article [1] (in Norwegian) and no primary reference. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Any news on this? The article still contradicts itself! Junglehungry (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Austrian Ski pioneers

The austrian part should be removed and changed simipily to ski proneers. With this done notables from other nationalities could be added.

In late 1939, the USSR invades its small north-eastern neighbor Finland

USSR never invaded Finland, as the their attack was stopped on mentioned time. Also Finland is to Noth-west when looking from Russia (former USSR). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.21.120 (talk) 09:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sovjet attacked Finland. After the war Finland had to give up territories to Sovjet, no held by Russia. --Erik den yngre (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Citations needed

Hi, thanks for adding more entries to the timeline. This article already has a "refimprove" on it, but we are seeing the unreferenced content increase rather than decrease. New unreferenced content is being added, much of it statements judgement, which are in particular need of backing up. For example "Salomon releases the Salomon SX91, beginning a decade-long run of rear-entry ski boots being the equipment to beat ... Salomon introduces the first successful Twin-tip ski. This eventually leads to a revival of skiing's popularity in comparison with snowboarding." I take it in good faith that this is all true, but it needs refs. Could the editors who just added this provide some verification? --Cornellier (talk) 22:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Narrative

Now that the timeline has been edited to include mostly just cited information, I propose to convert it from a list of bullet points to a narrative.

Snowshoe race?

Why is there a picture of a snowshoe race flier listed as a ski race? Doesn't seem appropriate.Mrhyak (talk) 15:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not place that graphic, which is definitely a candidate for deletion, but I believe the idea is that in "ye olden days" the word "snow shoe" was sometimes used to mean "ski". That would have to be cited to make sense, of course. --Cornellier (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

China

Sombody deleted this from intro: "Although modern skiing has evolved from beginnings in [[Scandinavia]], it may have been practised as early as 600 BC in [[Daxing'anling]], in what is now [[China]].<ref>{{cite web|title=Ancient Ice Sports|url=http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/142Kaleidoscope1348.html|accessdate=1 October 2012}}</ref>" That is OK for me, but should the point be reinserted somewhere or is the source not reliable? --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

It should stay with a cleaned-up reference. See also: these images and from Xinhua. User:HopsonRoad 13:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The claim that the Xinjiang rock paintings are 10000 years old are strongly contested. New research published in 2016 suggest that the paintings are most likely 4000-5250 years old MacArthur Jr. (talk) 10:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC) MacArthur Jr.

References

First "alpine ski club"?

A new claim has been introduced into this article by User:Clarkenorman that Kiandra, Australia was the site of the world's first "alpine ski club." This claim seems to be based primarily on a self-published work, seen at WORLD’S FIRST ALPINE SKI CLUB Second Edition By Norman W Clarke, contrary to WP:Reliable sources. The article contains rebuttals of the earlier edition on the subject by the same author, with counter-rebuttals. Note that the author is probably the same person, who has inserted the material here. The other source, the Historical Dictionary of Skiing, does not mention a ski club in connection with Kiandra. The commented out material is:

"Early skiing in Kiandra also featured competition, in fact a type of competition that was far ahead of its time." and "I would like to commend you for having organised the first Alpine ski races in the history of our sport." <ref>FIS letter published "World's First Alpine Ski Club" second edition ISBN 9780646588421</ref><ref>{{cite book|author=E. John B. Allen|title=Historical Dictionary of Skiing|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=YTW-Cpm2e1oC&pg=PR35|year=2011|publisher=Scarecrow Press|page=35}}</ref>

Even if the matter were settled and the source was reliable, the claim "alpine" is itself questionable, since the art of skiing had not yet specialized into cross-country and alpine at that point. I have commented out the section making this claim, until other editors can arrive at a consensus. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:29, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Alpine skiing became a separate discipline around 1900, so it is a bit odd to denote this an "alpine" ski club. And competitions in Australia may have been "hill races" but certainly not the first. --— Erik Jr. 19:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree the sources seem inadequate for the claims made. What evidence is there that "the author is probably the same person, who has inserted the material here"? --Cornellier (talk) 19:53, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Cornellier, the username is Clarkenorman, the author's name is Norman W Clarke. User:HopsonRoad 00:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I question the relevance to the fact that I am a self published author and a contributor to these pages. I do not sell my books for profit or costs.

“The World’s first Alpine Ski Club” second edition is published and free on the net. Kiandra - Gold fields to Ski Fields was a gift to the Kiandra Ski Club. --Clarkenorman (talk) 09:27, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe that the two most authoritative bodies on the history of skiing are:

“The Holmenkollen Museum of Norway” and the “Federation of International Skiing” Switzerland.

The word “alpine” is only used as a book title to differentiate between – water – mountain or cross country skiing. Example: For the Kiandra Club’s 150th anniversary the “Federation of International Skiing” used the words “Kiandra's inaugural position in alpine skiing in the world.”

At the founding of the “Norwegian Holmenkollen Ski Museum” in 1923 it was accepted, then published in numerous editorials, that the first recreational ski club in the world was the “Christiana Ski Club of Norway” formed in 1885.

In 1955 the Kiandra Ski Club challenged the Norwegians, claiming a club in or before 1870.

In 1972 America claimed an alpine club commencing in January 1861. This drew a response from the Holmenkollen Museum, declaring the existence of a Norwegian club, described as the “Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning” having been founded with 52 named members, in May of 1861.

America withdrew its 1861 claim after the Museum proclaimed that it would only recognize a club providing it could fulfill the three requirements described by leading encyclopaedias and dictionaries.

(a) It could name a group of members (a group being more than a pair).

(b) The named group could demonstrate organization over a continuing period.

(c) The named group could demonstrate participation for a singular common purpose. Example - Skiing.

In 2005 the Kiandra club supplied all requirements illustrating it was also formed in the summer of 1860/1861. The museum accepted that Norway and Australia had the world’s first ski clubs formed in the same year.

The “Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning” was later found to be a military shooting and skiing organization which did not ski until 1862.

The “Inderøens Skiløberforening” claim should be removed as it does not yet meet these requirements.

These facts, letters and complete references to my claims are available free on the internet under “The World’s first Alpine Ski Club” second edition ISBN 9780646588421 --Clarkenorman (talk) 04:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I will consult Norwegian sources later. Perhaps there was a skiing club in Kiandra in 1861, but the notion of "alpine" skiing was established around 1900 or later. --— Erik Jr. 10:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage (1952) mentions a Carl Christian Bjerknes that went to dig gold in Australia in 1855 and use skis at Kiandra. Gold miners there had competitions racing downhill in a straihgt line, perhaps aroudn 1860. They did not have proper bindings so could not make turns as in slalom. Norwegian Amundsen was also in Kiandra around 1860 and he had a ski workshop there. In 1901 the Alpine tourist club of NSW made a trip to Kiandra, but this appears to be a mountaineering club, not a skiing club. — Erik Jr. 11:10, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage writes that the bindings used at Kiandra were very simple or basic, only a rope across the toes. The straight line downhill races at Kiandra continued until 1900 when proper bindings were introduced by Borre Winther of Kristiansand, Norway. --— Erik Jr. 15:33, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Molstad (1988) writes that there were ski "carnevals" (shows) in Kiandra from 1860 or 1861, while there were regular XC and jumping compitions from 1878. Jens (James) Olsen from Tjølling, Norway, was the first ski manufacturer in AUstralia, according to Molstad. --— Erik Jr. 15:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Clarkenorman and Erik Jr., the issue here is a question of proper sourcing. It appears that Mr. Clarke is new to Wikipedia and may not be familiar with what's considered to be a reliable source in Wikipedia and the principle of exclusion of original research from Wikipedia. Mr. Clarke's work, WORLD’S FIRST ALPINE SKI CLUB Second Edition By Norman W Clarke, is interesting to read, but does not qualify as a reliable source. One could use the material cited within that report, except that it is based on unpublished material and represents original research. I suggest turning to other, published sources to verify the claim and characterize it in a manner that does not constitute promotion of the claim. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:42, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

This works for me, as a reliable source: Neubauer, Ian Lloyd (August 25, 2011). "The Long Run: Australia's Storied Ski Heaven". Time. Time, Inc. Retrieved 2015-12-27. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 17:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Norwegian gold miners founded the Kiandra Snowshoe Club in the early 1860s. The Monaro Mercury 29 July 1861 reported about a downhill show/race at Kiandra, according to Kjærnsli (2000). --— Erik Jr. 18:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage (1979) writes that a Kiandra Snow (or Snowshoe) club was founded around 1870, according to Vaage sources are unclear about who founded the club and other details. --— Erik Jr. 20:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that now you are prepared to accept that skiing was established in Australia in 1861 with the reference: THE LONG RUN: Australia's Storied Ski Heaven. By Ian Lloyd Neubauer dated Thursday, Aug. 25, 2011.

This article was accepted as being reliable while only quoting one source kpsc1861.org.au. This is the website of KIANDRA PIONEER SKI CLUB 1861.

This club holds the original 2006 letter from the Holmenkollen Museum which confirms that the club was formed in 1861. It also holds the original letter from the President of the Federation of International Skiing.

As these letters were loaned to me to publish they must be considered as being reliable.

I must take this opportunity to state that hills or mountains, rope bindings or turning ability, has no bearing on this discussion. --Clarkenorman (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Clarkenorman, I understand your puzzlement. The discussion is not whether the material that you reported is correct, it's about whether the source used in WP is regarded as reliable, according to the rules, described in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. A news source, like TIME, is expected to verify the material that it reports on. There were several news accounts from Australian newspapers, which are not readily available on line, that would have also been regarded as reliable. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 00:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

From the scholarly sources and the Time article it is not clear to me if the Kiandra skiing club was in fact established in 1861. It is however clear that there were some kind of skiing (downhill) races (for show or for real competition) at Kiandra in 1861, so this fact we can safely add to the article. And it was not an alpine skiing club as the concept did not exist in the 1860s. I think we still need better sources to include the claim that it was the first ever skiing club. --— Erik Jr. 15:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Time cited it as, the "world's longest continuously running ski club", which it probably is. Since further description is provided in the link, it doesn't need to be developed in this article's timeline. I suggest that we not make further claims, here. User:HopsonRoad 18:12, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

In 2005 the Kiandra club supplied 13 pages of requirements completely illustrating it was formed in the summer of 1860/1861.

Copies of these pages were sent by the museum to Professor R. Huntford of Cambridge University, author of “Two Planks and a Passion”, for advice.

The museum accepted, with a signed document, that a ski club was formed in 1861 in Australia.

The same cannot be said about the Inderøens Skiløberforening claimed to be founded in the Trøndelag region of Norway.

This group was in fact 32 young men from the districts of Trøndelag and Inderøy, Norway. They were named, and occupations given, when in 1861 they joined the newly formed Centralforeningen (Central Association). This was basically a voluntary national service club designed to develop the nation’s strengths and abilities in terms of self defense. The main activities were shooting, gymnastics and a variety of sports including skiing.

There is no known evidence that this group, claiming to be a ski club, ever met for the sole purposes of skiing activities.

--Clarkenorman (talk) 00:22, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Sources list Inderøens skiløberlag as founded in 1861 or perhaps 1862, and they joined the "Centralforeningen" (now the "conferdation of sports") according to Centralforeningen's records for 1863. The Norwegian word "lag" translates as club or association, and sources refer to Inderøens as "skiklubb".--— Erik Jr. 00:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I am very aware of all you have said, it is simply not good enough “1861 or perhaps 1862”for example.

Your sources appear to be secondary. Please find from which primary sources these secondary claims originated or follow the example set by the “Holmenkollen Ski Museum” which are:

If failing to present original dated club documentation, 1861 competition results, trophies or memorabilia then as previously quoted:

(a) name a group of members (a group being more than a pair).

(b) The named group must demonstrate organization over a continuing period.

(c) The named group could demonstrate participation for a singular common purpose. Example - Skiing.

An American club and the Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning both withdrew their claims, after being unable to meet these reasonable conditions. I believe Wikipedia should consider doing this also.

I suggest that the Wikipedia 1861 line should read “The first identifiable ski club was formed in (Country name)”

I will not respond quickly so that other readers may voice an opinion". --Clarkenorman (talk) 04:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia should only quote information from reliable sources, we dont analyze information from sources to reach conclusions - that would be original research per synthesis. WP does not analyze or collect original source materials such as archival records or interviews. We used published materials such as books or newspaper reports. --— Erik Jr. 10:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Then tell me why WP does not accept published newsflashes from leading Ski authorities such as the FIS. It is becoming obvious that WP only accepts material that suits some. I am an author of six publications and I quote from primary sources not secondary material. Time magazine quoted many sections from my publications which are based only on fact. That is probably why they used KPSC as a source. I am the historian for that club.

The Kiandra Club remains the world's first in the world until other claims are based on primary evidence. The original 1861 line should not have been removed. --Clarkenorman (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

A source in WP is perhaps not the same as a source for a historian. Original material such as archives and interviews are not acceptable sources at WP. All material in WP must be verifiable by users. --— Erik Jr. 22:36, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Questionable source

I can't find: Saur, Lasse (1999): Norske ski - til glede og besvær. Research report, Høgskolen i Finnmark. Can anyone provide a link to it for other editors to inspect? It is used as a citation several times in this article, yet is hard to verify without the ability to inspect it. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Reliable even if not online. Available in Norway http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/a56196fbc94425a5d1935e06ddd53b46?index=1#0 --— Erik Jr. 19:42, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I have access to more scholarly sources on the topic, will inspect later to verify Saur's claim. Please remind me later. --— Erik Jr. 19:54, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Erik Jr.: Unfortunately, I can't see the source material at the link that you provided. Can you possibly send me a PDF to (deleted)@gmail.com? It's not just whether it's reliable, it's whether it's verifiable by another English-speaking editor. User:HopsonRoad 00:59, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, it is online at the national library only, not available as a PDF. --— Erik Jr. 10:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

"Birkebeiner" - movie

A new movie tried to recreate skiing 12th century style, trailer for those interested in the history of skiing. Not intended as commercial. --— Erik Jr. 16:31, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Interesting, but not very authentic-looking skis. They look distinctly modern with camber, side-cut and plastic bases. Exciting action, though! I haven't seen a good ski chase, since James Bond. User:HopsonRoad 03:51, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure how authentic, there has been some criticisme from historians that the producer has taken some liberties with historical facts. I have too read up and see what kind of skis the Vikings actually used. I can also recommend Heros of Telemark for some good skiing action. --— Erik Jr. 10:36, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

At least, they were using a single pole. User:HopsonRoad 15:10, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

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Over-populated gallery section

Skiing in Scandinavia, 1767

Sami on skis ca. 1900.

Nanai hunter on asymmetrical skis, 1895

Nanai hunter, 1895

The Gallery section has a large collection of images, many of them redundant, some uncaptioned. I propose to prune most of those images, leaving only those that show a notable phase in history, not already illustrated above. I have tagged it, accordingly.

WP:GALLERY says on this topic:

Just as we seek to ensure that the prose of an article is clear, precise and engaging, galleries should be similarly well-crafted. Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to the article while avoiding similar or repetitive images unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made. Images should be captioned to explain their relevance to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery, and the gallery itself should be appropriately titled (unless its theme is clear from context). See Women's suffrage in New Zealand for an example of a good use of gallery.

Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Agree, go ahead! The 18th century image can be dropped. We should keep at least one (historical) image of Sami people skiing. --— Erik Jr. 17:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this article and checking in here, Erik Jr.

I suggest that we include only images that accurately depict skiing at certain periods in chronological order, not images depicting the type of skiing at the time a painting was made, projected back on historical characters, e.g. "Knud Bergslien's Birkebeiner escaping with the prince child", "The 1903 rendition of medieval Russian soldiers' use of skis to facilitate their movement during winter campaigns, by Sergey Ivanov", and "The Norse goddess Skaði hunts in the mountains on skis in an illustration (1901) by H. L. M."

The Sami woman on skis, adapted from Olaus Magnus, 1883, is probably not an accurate depiction. Is the image that you showed above, "Skiing in Scandinavia, 1767" more pertinent than "Depiction of Samis skiing, by John Bauer"?

Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Skiing as depicted in art is interesting but not documentary. Bergslien's Birkebeiner painting is romantic and far from realistic I think. Not sure about the 1767 painting, but does not seem fully realistic to me. Perhaps the "Fin paa Ski" is better, although newer. I mentioned Sami because the role of Sami people in developing skiing is often forgotten. — Erik Jr. 09:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I added a photo relating to Nansen's "Greenland on skis" expedition, that included two Sami expert skiers. — Erik Jr. 09:55, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I recommend an Asian image, as well from the Nanai people. It illustrates asymmetrical skis. BTW, I prefer the Bauer depiction of Sami skiing for transportation to the "Fin paa Ski" image, which depicts a skier for the entertainment of the postcard recipient. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Would be good to have a photo from Nanai people, the one shown is interesting but unfortunatly low quality photo. — Erik Jr. 16:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

There's one with better technical quality, poorer composition, but with symmetrical skis. I prefer the closer-in one with the asymmetrical skis. You? Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Not very easy to see that skis are asymmetrical, so I am indifferent. Perhaps some photos from Norway with asymmetrical skis? — Erik Jr. 14:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Ancient Ski Hunting

I had noticed the article is mostly heavily focused on Scandinavia, which is one of the likely possible origins of skiiing but few mention of Ski Hunting or other possible historic skiing regions. However Tuvan people in the Siberian parts, also had a very rich ancient skiing culture for at least 4 thousand years and used skiing to primarily hunt big game. Even to this day, they still use traditional ski technology to hunt elk as they have done continously for the past millennials. Is it noteworthy to include the ancient ski hunting culture of Tuvan people in the Altai mountains in this article? They have an interesting way to catch elk using skis and been doing that possibly back to 5 thousand years ago. Which looks to have been the early historic human use for skis - (hunting big game). [2]49.179.85.159 (talk) 01:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Chinese propaganda

I am concerned about the inclusion of CCP propaganda in this article. To call the "evidence" of ancient skiing in China highly questionable would be too generous by half. This propaganda was put out ahead of the Beijing Winter Olympics and is not remotely credible. The "cave painting" which is the only evidence ever mentioned about Chinese skiing, does not resemble a depiction of people skiing whatsoever. The best evidence of prehistoric skiing in Asia comes from Siberian peoples such as the Tuvans, who live mostly in Russia, NOT China. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:A871:E043:91FC:C87D (talk) 01:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Firstly it's a Cave carving and not a painting. And secondly, those claims existed well before the 2022 Winter Olympics. Nils Larsen’s 2008 film and Mark Jenkins’ National Geographic article in 2012 were already claiming this at least a decade ago and are credible sources.[3] And nobody is saying that Chinese people had ancient skiing. Xinjiang wasn't even part of China in that time era. They were saying Tuvan people living in that specific location of the cave art, that is merely located in Modern China, were early skiers based on the evidence. And if you think the cave art is fake, then do show research and evidence first. But don't just constantly push your pov or your unprofessional opinion without at least showing sources that those cave art is fake or not of skiiers. You sound politically motivated but tell me, does this also look like skiing to you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_skiing#/media/File%3AAlta_Felszeichnung_Elch_und_Ski_(cropped).jpg ; in my honest opinion, that also barely looks like a skiier however it's not my place to push my pov as I am not an expert. But scholars documented by National Geographic (who have professional editorial oversight) are saying that Tuvan people in the ancient Xinjiang region did ski in the distant past. [4] Wikipedia doesn't take political sides but record what scholars in this Field, are saying. None of them has ever said the Rock art in the Altai mountains is not of skiiers. If you have a real source saying otherwise, show it but don't edit war or give unsourced own opinions.49.180.247.61 (talk) 11:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

cave carving/painting, don't get snippy and pedantic. It was referred to as a painting in the article, and I had scare quotes around it. The passages I edited were slanted in a way favorable to the propaganda that the CCP put out ahead of the olympics, and I am aware it was based LOOSELY on the archeological finds more than a decade prior. My POINT was that the way it was written was not academic, but political which I took issue with. I do not think the cave art is fake, but it simply does not remotely resemble skiers. here is the ave art in question: https://www.skiinghistory.org/sites/skiinghistory.org/files/screen_shot_2017-06-11_at_10.50.22_pm.png compared to this, the cave art in the link you provided is CLEARLY a skier. Look a the ratio of the length of the "feet" compared to the rest of the body. Further more, the art example you provided clearly shows a classic skiing form of motion. I am NOT politically motivated, I am culturally motivated. I am a Swedish citizen in addition to my American citizenship, skiing is my cultural heritage and I will not tolerate historical revisionism based on an Authoriatarian regime's desperate attempts at legitimacy by stealing the cultural heritage of others, not only mine, but the Tuvan's as well. Modern day China is a society primarily of the Han ethnicity, who in addition to have ZERO ski history, allow their government to exploit and repress other ethic groups in Asia. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:A577:6413:B773:1D87 (talk) 20:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Please remember that Wikipedia articles are written from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, based on Wikipedia:Reliable sources. No matter what our personal perspective is, it has no place in altering article content. The article passed the test of neutrality and being reliably sourced before this controversy arose. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 22:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I am not just going to take your word and override actual experts because of your politics. Scholars who literally study These ancient rock art for many years, have never claimed it wasn't skiers. They would had said something if it wasn't skiers but haven't. And National Geographic, NYT [5] , etc had referred to them as skiers. Why would they do that? Are they all wrong except for you? But as I understand, your one and only argument is that the picture of the cave art, doesn't depict skiers. Then the basic etiquette for you here, is to show Professional sources that the cave art is not of skiers. That's wiki editing 101. Don't just give me your personal opinion. And you just gave me more political motives and unprofessional speculations but yet still haven't shown any valid proof that the cave art in Xinjiang is not of skiers. And btw there were also a handful (not just one) of similar cave art discovered in that Altai region and some actually looks like obvious skiing in motion to me like this ancient one in Dundebulake River in Altai mountains. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0036/2852/files/Riding-Wood-Sliding-Figure-1---Rock-art-cited-by-Zhaojian-and-Bo-2011-from-Silk-Road-Sports-Catalog-2008-edited-by-Li-Jimmei-and-Li-Zhongshen.jpg?103946 similarly the Knees are shown all visibly bent. All 3 skiers are in the exact same uniform sequence of knee bent and hunched back position going over a slope and giving chase to a herd of Ibex. Even to a casual observer, I can say that's definitely looks like skiiing.[6]

Multiple reliable sources don't dispute it and always written it as "cave art that depicts skiers chasing ibexes". I trust their judgement as I think professional scholars would be able to be familiar with the historical art nuances. What is your own background and expertise? Do you have credentials and a published article to dispute it? No. So please show proof (in the form of Legitimate sources) that clearly states the ancient cave art in Altai mountains doesn't depict skiers, otherwise I am not going to reply further if you keep that up as it it's just going to be a circular waste of mine and other's precious time. Like experienced editor Hopson stated above, the article passed "being neutral" and reliably sourced, and understand your own unprofessional personal views have no place here in altering article content. And also what political logic is that? They are "stealing" Tuvan culture? They are literally recognising that it's one of their minorities in far north west, (not their majority) who are early ski pioneers. Historians are divided on who the earliest people to ski really is, but it's not up to you to say a number of historians are wrong just because of your political leanings. I am certainly not going to claim as a fact who was the first when I am aware that historians are still divided and that should be expressed in Wikipedia.

The origins of skiing are disputed. Research of ancient skiing methods is not highly funded. But anthropologists and ski-history buffs debate two main origins: Scandinavia, where the oldest preserved skis are found, and the Altaic area. Of late,a consensus has been forming among scholars and ski enthusiasts that it was the Altaic area. Civilization developed earlier there. Altaic peoples may have brought skis to Sweden or Norway. Or the common-sense concept of skiing may have arisen independently in each place. [7]

And also I was (49.180.247.61) but like you, my IP address changes automatically by itself but my geolocation is always the same.

49.179.24.226 (talk) 06:41, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

do you consider Shopify a credible source? more than SkiingHistory.org? I think that says it all. I don't consider your response to my objections good faith or exhibiting any understanding of standards of evidence and responsible rhetoric around dubious claims. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC6D:63B0:4443:DD2A (talk) 06:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

And my feelings are honestly the same for you. I already provided multiple reliable sources that supports what I say, [8] [9]. Whereas you haven't but given me (just your personal views and original research) and then a large pile of ad hominen attacks when I asked you to provide at least one reliable source to support you. Which is not unreasonable. You don't seem to realise that virtually every reliable source like NYT, national geographic, etc have all unanimously referred to those cave art frequently as depicting skiers chasing Wild Game and it does look like skiing to me. Are they not reliable sources or just whatever you claim? Even your cited SkiingHistory.org strongly contradict your claim that it looks nothing like skiing. And also you haven't provided a single reliable source stating that the cave art doesn't depict skiers. The Altai mountains in Xinjiang might actually be the first place where skiing was done. Yet you are clearly motivated to mass delete that. You only want the Norwegian claim to stay undisputed despite the fact that many historians are indeed arguing there's evidence to state birthplace of first skiing, was not Scandinavia but more to the east in Altai mountains.49.181.232.109 (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

once again, you prove you have no idea how evidence works. I don't have to prove the Altai cave art "doesn't depict skiers" how would that work? going back in time and asking the artist? the burden of proof is on those who make a positive claim, and that is far from settled. NYT, Nat Geo and others HAVE NOT CONFIRMED THE IMAGES ARE SKIIERS, ONLY THAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAVE CLAIMED IT DOES. the NYT times article quoting him even directly rebuts your argument and reads

"The International Ski Federation, the sport’s major governing body, has declared a ski found in a Northern Russia bog as the oldest scientifically dated evidence of skiing in the world. And Norwegian cave paintings depicting skiers dating to 4,000 B.C. are considered by experts as evidence of an early ski culture with Scandinavian roots."

this is pathetic. apparently, you haven't even read your own "sources" 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 16:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Omg, they (western media) themselves wrote that the cave art depicts skiers. Not once did they ever share your view that it's ONLY the Chinese gov are claiming this alone. That's your unsubstantiated opinion. Other scholars and Western journalists have been describing them as looking like skiers contrary to your personal perception. They write;

• "a (cave painting depicting skiers hunting in the northern tip of China's Xinjiang region)"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/sports/skiing/skiing-china-cave-paintings.html

• "A cave paintings found near Altay City that appear to depict skiers in motion over a collection of wild animals."

https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/origin-story-where-did-skiing-begin

• "a (Cave paintings discovered in Altay show rows of figures standing on what look like skis, with herds of animals running below them.)" https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/photography/preserving-skiing-origins-china-west-winter-olympics-traditional-a8210351.html

And fyi, International Ski Federation, is not a scientific group. But a sporting group. Yet you are rushing to your desired conclusion despite nobody knows for certain how old those cave art is, if you read the source. It's still debated on. But Christian Science monitor does write the Altai mountains in Xinjiang might actually be the first place where skiing was done and I was simply quoting them as they did professional academic research on this.[10] 49.181.232.109 (talk) 17:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Christian Science Monitor, despite the name, is not a scientific group either, it is a newspaper. they conducted NO "professional academic research". I believe that you have shown your cards decrying "western media" are you a tankie or something? I am done explaining basic facts and simple concepts to an apologist for the CCP. I am not going anywhere, I will check this article every week for your disingenuous and propagandistic edits. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 18:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I reply to you and show you scholars and western journalists (not Chinese gov) from outlets that have professional editorial oversight, and who empirically disagrees with you. Instead of addressing that, you just avoid and jump straight to ad hominens that doesn't disprove my above comments. That's real mature. People resorts to ad hominen to avoid addressing an argument. You know I am correct about my sources and you are Lashing. Calling me an apologist to discredit me, for simply disproving your claim, is pathetic. It doesn't change the fact that my sources like NYT show you are wrong. Are They apologists too? I am frankly tired of expecting you to realise that you need a reliable source to back you up and not your personal opinions alone. 49.179.88.253 (talk) 23:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

You have not made ANY arguments. what you are doing is called obscurantism, and it is deplorable. here is more evidence of your lies, a direct quote from YOU "...many historians are indeed arguing there's evidence to state birthplace of first skiing, was not Scandinavia but more to the east in Altai mountains." Again, which historians are arguing that? you have stated you have not argued that China invented skiing, but your own words prove that you are a liar. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Unbelievable. You reply now diverts away to another new topic. You were originally just arguing that the cave art doesn't depict skiers. But after I had shown you so many sources that disagree. Now you quickly go to another argument and falsely claimed that I didn't make any arguments 🤦. I see you edited the page already and you are trying to skew it as if it's only just one person claiming it depicts skiers. I have little interest in prolonging this edit war and tolerate your ridiculous lies. Despite many (non Chinese) journalists from National Geographic etc are empirically describing them as skiers. But as long as you don't remove all the info again. Consider it a truce where I won't challenge your LAst edit.

But fyi, I already shown you the CSM article. https://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0315/p01s01-woap.html The origins of skiing are unclear and being disputed. According to the Christian science monitor (not Chinese gov), it states historians and anthropologists primarily debate that the birthplace of skiing could either be in two locations; Scandinavia or the Altaic region. However consensus has been growing among scholars and ski enthusiasts that it really feasibly could the Altaic area since civilization had developed earlier there. Because they actually understand the ancient human migration patterns stemming from north asia. So yes, there's considerable evidence.49.180.211.143 (talk) 01:59, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Highly instructive debate, subtle. the rock art of northern European caves, the pluragrotta and similar cave systems such as the tanum, are without skiing Vikings. alas. Saintstephen000 (talk)

@Illusion Flame: Thanks for reverting the previous two attacks on me by user 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC6D:63B0:4443:DD2A. However he is still sending me unfair accusations about my personal behavior and doesn't seem to cease. The bulk of his previous comments were either his own opinion or mostly his political motives. Which are both completely irrelevant here to alter the article. And I regret that I open mindedly gave him a chance and asked him to provide reliable sources or to show credentials to support his argument. Otherwise he is wasting time. Even his own source (Skiiinghistory) contradict him and write the extreme opposite of his claim. When he is unable to show any reliable sources to support his argument, he throws a fit and misrepresent me. Despite when someone claims the extreme opposite of what multiple reliable sources are saying. And tells people to overly put their trust in his politically driven personal opinion instead. It's not unwarranted to ask him to provide at least one reliable source and not just rely on his views alone. But instead of answering that, he instead diverts from answering and sends personal ad hominen attacks my way a third time now despite being warned twice by you already. 49.181.232.109 (talk) 14:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

nothing you write is true. you have not provided any sources for YOUR claim, I did not insert new claims into the article, I was removing claims that were not supported by empirical evidence, which again you don't what that means. And now you are whining to the Mods? this is pathetic. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 16:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Nothing I wrote, was true? I have provided no sources for my claims? Dude really? that's just rude and blatant false smearing of my character and you are describing your own actions. Perhaps to certain people, they cannot see it. However Virtually every reliable source like NYT, national geographic, etc have all unanimously referred to those cave art frequently as depicting skiers chasing Wild Game and I agree with those journalists that it does look like skiing to me. Even your often cited SkiingHistory.org strongly contradict your claim that it looks nothing like skiing. They say it looks like "skiers in motion over a collection of wild animals".[11] And looking closely, to me, I agree as it just resembles a basic drawing of skiing to me (with knees bent and no two visible legs but all 2 leg being aligned closely together and yet all uniformally "in motion" going forward) Other multiple Media like the Independent [12] and also NYT referring to that same picture, backs my perception and writes it's: a (cave painting depicting skiers hunting in the northern tip of China's Xinjiang region) [13] I have shown multiple sources backing my claims. I have not lied once and do not need your smearing.49.181.232.109 (talk) 17:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

The truth is nobody can really say they know for certain where skiing first occured. Perhaps the place that started it all, has all its artefacts lost to time. But it is not primarily up to us (the editors especially without creds) to say what's what. The reality is that Historians are divided on whether it was the ancestors of Sami people in Scandinavia, or the indigenous Tuvan people in Xinjiang Altai mountains. We can simply respect what they decide and document it. But you can't just claim that evidence for Altai mountains are proven as wrong without giving any real sources to back it up. And Yet you mass removed a lot of information in the article multiple times. Wasn't trying to fight and maybe we got off on the wrong foot but kindly show actual acceptable sources (not personal opinions and political rants), to mass remove the info in the future.49.181.232.109 (talk) 17:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I made no such claim. I said the claim about the single rock carving in the Altai mountains was not sufficient evidence for claims made by the CCP about skiing being invented by the Chinese. If you struggle this much with reading, perhaps you should not be writing or editing. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

That's a strawman argument. Nowhere in the current wiki article, is there any sentence outright saying that. Has Wikipedia EVER written that Chinese invented skiiing? No and I am not arguing for that either. Nobody writes that because there's no sufficient evidence to prove the origin of skiiing in China, or anywhere else. As I already said before in my first reply, historians and archaeologists are divided on the origin of skiing and it's currently debated.[14] You deleted info to make it seem like there's no active debate and only Scandinavia is the undisputed origin. That is your edit that got reverted, not just by me but two other editors. I see that edit you deleted, was actually there 4 years ago. [15] Why? Probably because the Wikipedia article passed tests of neutrality and reliably sourced, before you started deleting stuff. If not me, other editors would revert your deletion because no serious scholar is unaware that the origin of skiing is still debated on whether it is north Asia or Scandinavia that was the origin. 49.179.88.253 (talk) 23:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

now you are outright lying about what you have written, that everybody can see with their own eyes. do I have to read back your own words to you? here they are: "Of late, a consensus has been forming among scholars and ski enthusiasts that it was the Altaic area. Civilization developed earlier there. Altaic peoples may have brought skis to Sweden or Norway." THIS IS AN ABSURD LIE. Name the "scholars" that agree with that sentiment. you cannot, because there are NONE. that claim is made by a single man, Shan Zhaojian, a former competitive skier and amateur "historian" whose has made conclusively disproven claims, such as the 10000 year claim for the age of the Altai cave drawings, so he has no credibility. every single "source" you have claimed to provide is merely journalistic reporting about his claims, which have no merit. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 23:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

You obviously don't even bother to even read any of my sources. I am not even the original author that wrote any of that. And it is not written by a Chinese Shan. I originally put in the quotation marks that paraphrased from this article with a different author and linked to it. But Hudsonroad seem to later edit my comment and remove the quotation for some reason. It indeed writes; The origins of skiing are disputed. Research of ancient skiing methods is not highly funded. But anthropologists and ski-history buff debate two main origins: Scandinavia, where the oldest preserved skis are found, and the Altaic area. Of late,a consensus has been forming among scholars and ski enthusiasts that it was the Altaic area. Civilization developed earlier there.l. Altaic peoples may have brought skis to Sweden or Norway. [16] And it's written by a very reputable American media and I doubt that CSM is unprofessional, and they did their journalist research to find those facts. 49.180.211.143 (talk) 00:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

apparently you did not even quote CSM correctly, that passage of the article to which you refer is talking about statements made Chinese state-media, ie propaganda, like I said from the beginning. Here is the rest of the quote: "On Jan. 25, days before the ancient-skiing contest, China's state-run news service Xinhua announced that China had essentially invented skiing. Citing newly discovered Altaic regional cave paintings of four hunters on boards with poles in their hands, chasing cattle and horses - the Xinhua story proposed that "Chinese were adept skiers in the Old Stone Age," and that skiing originated there 100 to 200 centuries ago. Historians did not rush to embrace the theory. The ethnic Han Chinese, let alone a corporate state called China, did not exist in this part of the world in stone-age days, 10,000 years ago, they note."

I don't know why you are so persistent in debasing the historical record, but if you think I will tire and give up in correcting it you are in for a rude awakening. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 00:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I quoted them correctly. You are just willfully lying, arguing in bad faith or refusing to see the facts. The article did not say that the Chinese government said that scholars were divided on whether it was Scandinavia or Altai to be the birthplace of skiiing. Anyone neutral who reads that article can know that.[17] Nowhere in thar article did it ever say that the Chinese government are the ones claiming that historians and scholars are debating the origin. You are just disingenuously cherrypicking the few quote at the end that Chinese Gov did say. And acting like you have an argument here.

It's obviously the CSM author stating that historians are divided over the origin. You are so in denial and just unwilling to accept that there are people out there, seriously claiming that Altai mountains may be the possible origin. People like Norwegian polymath, scientist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Fridtjof Nansen who points to the Lake Baikal/Altai region as the possible origin for skiing in his 1890 book First Crossing of Greenland. [18] That's in the Nat Geo coverage too. This really is getting nowhere. I give you sources and you only give me opinions and bad faith responses. I strongly don't agree with your edits or your slander. If you want to delete all the information about Altai cave paintings, then I suggest you show reliable sources that confirms it doesn't depict skiers and also that it's not as old. But the information provided seems decent that it's approx 5 thousand years old and many sources do state it depicts skiers.49.180.211.143 (talk) 01:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I ask those in this discussion to try to refrain from talking about each other. One sign is to stop using "you". I suggest, instead, taking inventory of what the sources say and then discussing the (in)consistencies in the sources, using a format like this:

• Source: Summary of source

Perhaps this will put before all concerned the lay of the land. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 01:06, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I see a Wikipedia Admin by the name Drmies with over 300,000 edits has edited the page, removing passages I found suspect and not supported by evidence, stating a requirement of proper sourcing. This is exactly what I thought was needed in the first place. For my part, this matter is settled. I would be okay with a wikipedia moderator removing this entire thread I started about propaganda which has devolved significantly and is now redundant. My concerns have been addressed, thank you. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 02:35, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Lol just when I am asking Hopson road to be a honest judge and tell us who is lying on CSM article. You want the thread removed before he can answer. And we already told you that the article, before you came, was reliably sourced and neutral enough. You kept deleting edits and arguing that it needed to be deleted. Do you no longer want to delete those edits like before? If so, I can accept a truce and your latest edits and leave it at that. My only point is that many sources are divided over the origin and the current article is indeed close to good enough.49.180.211.143 (talk) 02:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

HopsonRoad doesn't need to waste his time. If the claims were "reliably-sourced" why were they removed by an admin who stated explicitly they didn't have proper sourcing? and who is "we"? unless you are referring to yourself in the plural, you cannot be suggesting you are part of the wikipedia admin, that's just adorable. a "truce" suggests genuine and honest disagreement, which was not what took place here which was you lying and debasing the historical record and me calling you out, but I don't expect you to understand that. Also, Taiwan is a free and independent nation and always will be. We are done here. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:DC80:EF75:9F1E:FAA8 (talk) 03:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

HopsonRoad wrote to you earlier above that The article passed the test of neutrality and being reliably sourced before this controversy arose. Sincerely I had overall agreed with him. And also it didn't get COMPLETELY deleted. Information is still there but removed from lede and goes to body so don't know why you think the info is invalid if it's still there. And I can accept that just fine given the fuss over it. But I do think National Geographic is a great reliable source and Wikipedia shouldn't be a hegamony for political biases. And Know the National Geographic link titled (on the trail with the first skiers) is not a small blog or unknown site but very acceptable for lede unlike the other links and says all the same info. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/first-skiers

Btw according to the Nat Geo blog, it also states the same as CSM. That the birthplace of skiing is under debate. https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2013/12/16/tracking-the-history-of-skiing/

Historians are divided on where skiing was born. Some argue it arose in Scandinavia and northwest Russia, though others point to the Altay.

And I was actually procrastinating by talking with you but it's actually been a pleasant experience in the end. Because it was very nice to go find and read Nat Geo. And if not me, I can guarantee you that in a few years, someone else would add the edit in to the lede that the birthplace of skiing is debated on, and attribute to world famous Nat Geo which is a strong expert source. But for now, goodbye. I actually am going overseas today in a few hours and travelling. So I won't edit for a endured period of time but do feel free to watch the article in a year. HopsonRoad or other editors might add the nat geo link in. And doubt anyone can remove it. 49.179.39.185 (talk) 04:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@HopsonRoad it's difficult to do that when you are gaslighted. So you be the final judge. Tell us who is deliberately misreading on this article stubbornly in bad faith? For this quote; (The origins of skiing are disputed. Research of ancient skiing methods is not highly funded. But anthropologists and ski-history buff debate two main origins: Scandinavia, where the oldest preserved skis are found, and the Altaic area. Of late,a consensus has been forming among scholars and ski enthusiasts that it was the Altaic area. Civilization developed earlier there) [19]

Tell us if the Chinese government are claiming that? Or is it really the author of the CSM article who is saying that? I argue that it's obviously the latter and the other IP editor is just refusing to argue and accept that here in good faith. And he know it. 49.180.211.143 (talk) 01:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia resolves disputes through Wikipedia:Consensus and not through finding fault in contributions individuals who contribute to a discussion. I assume Wikipedia:Assume good faith on the part of all, who have contributed to the discussion. I am discouraged by the lack of Wikipedia:Civility and the lack of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I offered a mechanism by which to achieve consensus, but discussion here has continued to resemble bickering more than offering evidence in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, which may be contradictory. The only arbiter here is the source material, not our individual credentials. HopsonRoad (talk) 14:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Technical Writing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 February 2024 and 18 March 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DylanSpark223 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by DylanSpark223 (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)