Talk:Albania (placename)

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[Untitled][edit]

I would not say, in the intro, that it is "even" the name of a city in New York State. This seems oddly belittling of the capital city of the Empire State. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.37.152 (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Warning: most of this text may be copyright violation, quoting John Wilkes, The Illyrians, verbatim. The book is at the library, but I remember lots of these exact sentences.

Though other phrases are interpolations: Wilkes knew better than to call the Liburnians "Illyrians", and I don't remember anything about an Illyrian word "Arba" that meant "dark, wooded". Alexander 007 07:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Illyrian word "Arba" for wooded is connected with the latin "Arbo" wood and possible also connected with the job as a woood chucker. The tribe Albani was also known as Arbanoi, arba and alba have a common origin. Alpine means "forest in the moutain zone" which makes that the word Arba and Alba is connected together. Arba and Alba seam to be a widespread term for the Illyrians, their is also a place in prehistoric time, in Istria, a illyrian twon named Alba. The name for the country Albania cannot be derived from the word meaning white, it comes from the word Alba meaning mountain and Albanians means mountain people, it make sense since Albanians lived mostly in the moutain and in that way preserved their language, also Albania is the most mountain country in the Balkans. --Albanau 16:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Many scholars do connect Albania with the root *albho, that originally meant 'white': some scholars say that later on, the word was applied to high mountains, because of the white snow on the mountain tops. That is the theory they have.

The other theory is that Alp- (as in the Alps) meant "high" or "mountain", and is a separate word that doesn't derive from *albho. No one knows yet which theory is correct. These are the two basic theories, and I've seen some other ones too.

The Latin word that you are talking about is Arbor (also, arbos), which meant 'tree' or 'any wooden object' and generally signified 'wood'. The Latin word is of unknown origin: but I haven't seen any scholar connect Illyrian 'arb-' with Latin 'arbor'. Alexander 007 06:43, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions[edit]

I've tweaked the text to make it more transparent to the ordinary Wikipedia reader (me), who, when arriving unprepared at this entry, still needs to know:

why there is no mention of Albania of the Caucasus since this is about "the name Albania"
"an ancient family epitaph" 3rd cent AD? 10th cent AD? 13th cent AD?
"Moreover, Arbanon is just likely to be the name" Arbanon has not previously been mentioned. We miss the connection.
"An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh.." What's the connection with "Albania" in this?
"Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano." Not household words. Their full names would be a start. A brief stub for each would very genuinely help too.
"Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi" how is he the first, all this time after Ptolemy?
"descendants of the Arbanitai" None of these designations are Italian, that's for sure.

In general it is a courtesy that one might extend to offer the briefest disambiguation of places and rivers and mountains in Albania: "northwards" "coastal" "on the X River" "nearby"—any little hook for the reader to cling to would help. Our knowledge of Albania's geography is somewhat blurry, remember, and you must be kind.--Wetman 04:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problems stem from the fact that User:Albanau lifted 90% of the article from John Wilkes' The Illyrians, I believe. I've been picking at Albanau's text over the past few months, making sporadic changes (though I don't know why my User name appears so much in the history when Albanau wrote 90% of it, which was lifted from Wilkes and may even have been copyright violation, as I noted above). I'll try to fix some of the problems over time. Albanau used an anonymous IP when he started the article, but a check of that IP's contributions leaves no doubt that it was Albanau himself. Alexander 007 05:08, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Albania versus Arbanon[edit]

In his Lexicon of the Modern Greek Language (1998), prominent Greek linguist and current Rector of the University of Athens, Professor Georgios Babiniotis[1] states that the two names have been falsely conflated, and in fact do not share the same etymology. He postulates that the ancient name Albania derives from the Latin Albanus (Mons), the name of a mountain in the Italian region of Latium, while on the other hand Arbanitai is a mediaeval term first used many centuries later by the Byzantines to describe the inhabitants of a region in what is today central Albania. There is a gap of several centuries which is simply glossed over in the current and previous versions of the article, and User:Wetman is right to point out that we miss the connection. Is there irrefutable evidence to support the claim that "the Illyrian ethnonyms Albanoi, Arbanitai, and Arbanios are from the same source as Albania, from which is [sic] also derived the modern ethnonyms Albanian, Arvanite, Arber, and Arbëreshë"?--Theathenae 08:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm frankly extremely suspicious of Babiniotis' idea [sic]. From what you've said, he doesn't even offer an etymology, he just suggests that they "have been conflated". He's not a crackpot, it seems, so I guess you can work in his suggestion as long as it is specified that it emanates from Babiniotis (it seems). Decius 15:38, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

His research appears not only "overly far-fetched" but also very subjective.

The Illyrian tribe called the Albanoi/Arbanoi lived near Durrës where the modern Albanians were first noted by Byzantines in the Middle ages. Albanau 16:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is very far-fetched. It appears to be just a rhotacism. Alexandru 16:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

from L to R? Albanau 20:29, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The rhotacism of alb- into arv- is attested in such languages as Neapolitan. Alexandru 02:56, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of resorting to personal abuse in edit summaries, why not provide sources to back up your claim that "most scholars affirm the common origin"? So far we've only seen your rhotacism theory.--Theathenae 08:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've read of it in a number of sources, and I will find the sources again. Might even find them in a few minutes if I search on the net. I won't look for the references tonight though, so maybe Albanau or someone else can try to find some. Alexandru 08:54, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I still support your compromise proposal in the Arvanites article, but I think that what you did in this article was out of proportion, and once the references are found even you might agree. Alexandru 09:19, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All I did was mention a dissenting view, not even my own view, but that of a man who happens to head Greece's oldest and most prestigious university, apart from being the country's leading authority on linguistics. Are you suggesting that being Greek renders one's views irrelevant, and, if so, what does that say about your attitude towards your Greek ancestry, Alexandre?--Theathenae 09:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

majority and minority view[edit]

While one could argue whether Bambiniotis is with the majority or the minority view, no-one should label him as a greek propagandist. Stating what one scientist says is according to NPOV and has nothing to do with weasel terms. So, dear Albanau stop vandalising the article. Thanks. +MATIA ☎ 14:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Revision[edit]

I don't like this article as it now (13:25, 8 November 2005), and I'm sure no one else does either. The problem goes back to Albanau, who apparently just lifted portions from Wilkes, some other sources, etc., but he didn't distill them properly. I will eventually go get Wilkes and some other books and online sources and see what I can do. Alexander 007 13:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arbanon[edit]

I need references for the etymology of Arbanon. Many linguists may well agree that Arbanon has the same etymology as Albania and Albanoi. So the argument that "Arvanites derives from Arbanon, not Albania" is rendered moot. For other ethnonyms that may derive from Arbanon, see this interesting link from Encyclopedia Britannica: [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-26398 . Alexander 007 16:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's common knowledge that Albanians call their language "Shqip" and their country "Shqipëria". These substituted an older set of terms, namely "Arbërisht" or "Arbnisht" for the language and "Arbëria" or "Arbnia" for the country. Until the 11th century the country was called "Illyria", whereas since the 13th century, according to Latin dictionaries, it has been known as "Albania", a term easily related to "Arbnia", which in turn comes from an older term "Albanoi", first mentioned by Ptolemy in the second century as the name of the Illyrian tribe which lived in the north-central area of present day Albania. This is the kind of thing you learn in primary school, every Albanian knows them. Rex^(talk)

16:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but somebody has to notify Babiniotis (and Theathenae). It was no surprise to me, I'm just glad I found a Britannica reference. Alexander 007 16:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arbanon is the medieval Greek name for the region and is found in medieval documents which were written in Greek. Imagine this: 2000 years in the future archaeologists find an English newspaper which names the country Finland (and has a map). Would the archaeologists then say that the Finns used to call their country Finland? Wrong, they called it "Suomi". Arbanon is merely what they were called in Greek, not what they called themselves. Therefore, it is of no etymological significance. Rex^(talk)

17:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not concerned with that. My point is this: the Greek term Arbanon is modified from Illyrian. The Illyrian term Arbanon and Albania probably have the same etymology, because Wilkes and others treat them as both deriving from an Illyrian root, Alb-, Arb-. Simple as that. I wasn't making any other conclusions. Alexander 007 17:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

This is what I want to look further into. It is one thing to say that Arbanitai does not derive from Albania or Albanoi, but in fact from Arbanon (itself a Greek adaptation from Illyrian). It is another thing to say that Arbanon has an etymon that is different from Albania---what is the argument for this latter point? References? Evidence?

I am not concerned much with the statement made by Britannica that Albania or Albanians may derive from Arbanon, though I find it humorous and a good way to counter G.B. and pull the rug from under him. Alexander 007 17:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for disambiguation page[edit]

I propose to make this article disambiguation page from obvious reasons.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No. "Albania (name)" is a single topic. The topic is the explanation of the different meanings of the name "Albania". They are several different meanings, but the question "what does the name 'Albania' refer to?" is still a single question, hence it can be treated on a single page. The disambiguation page regarding the articles that deal with the actual countries involved already exists, at Albania (disambiguation). We don't need yet another dab page besides that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dangling ref[edit]

I have located a dangling ref and hidden it, replacing it with a citation needed tag. This has been done because we have a reference pointing to a source that is not recorded in the article. Please feel free to contact me if you need assistance fixing this. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 01:16, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]