Talk:Iyengar

Religious observances

A lot of details are missing in this section. I tried to make changes and provided citations for all. But the page has been reverted to old version

As a complete outsider I have to say the section on weddings was absolutely non-informative: a string of content-free words akin to "The Montillation of Traxoline"... DaveRusin (talk) 14:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)DaveRusin

Common Origins Section

Why is a fraud like Abraham Eraly bing quoted on Iyengars or Brahmins? He knows neither Iyengar customs, genetics info or Hindu religion.Converts/ missinoaries/ leftist nuts need to stop interfering in Brahmin affairs. This is not their expertise and they ned to lay off. If this continues even Kumarai Kandam and other Dravidian fraud myths will be presented as scientific fact in Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.206.127.212 (talk) 11:59, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Sitush, please consider changing the sentence "All three men were Tamils, although Ramanuja documented his thoughts in Sanskrit" to "All three men were born in Tamilnadu. Ramanuja documented his thoughts in Sanskrit". --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Why?--2.219.218.79 (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Because it is perhaps more accurate to say they were born in Tamilnadu? Just a suggestion though. Thanks.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 19:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Hm. I think "Tamilnadu" could cause problems because of confusion with the modern state of the same name but different geographical scope. Tamilnadu was not a formal region as far as I am aware but was recognised to include bits of what is now Kerala - the word means something like "place where the Tamils live". Do we have an article for the old region? I'm working off my general knowledge here from wide reading here, not specific sources. Is this yet another seemingly rather pointless issue that really relates to the ethnic squabbles between you and Hari? Is someone worried that "Tamils" will be construed as "people of Tamil ethnicity"? I wish I could understand why it is you both lay so much stress on that issue, which is a completely nebulous subject at the best of times. It comes across as POV pushing of some sort but precisely why and what underlies the POVs is beyond me, I'm afraid. People have been topic banned for less and if I cannot understand it then I'm pretty sure most people without a specific interest in Indic subjects will not.

I think that perhaps you and Hari need both to lay your cards on the table regarding whatever the underlying dispute may be.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 17:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Of course, if all three birthplaces are in modern TN then we could say "... were born in the present-day state of Tamil Nadu". As I said when I added the footnote listing the various places, I've not been able to locate one of them.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

It was just a suggestion Sitush. In terms of accuracy perhaps "...present-day state of Tamil Nadu" would be better. However, it can get confusing if we attempt to relate it to previous centuries. Southern Andhra at one point formed part of Tamilakam; though later it was a separate kingdom of Andhrapatha / Vadugavalli. The 3 men in question were not born in the classical age of Sangam period so we cannot use the term Tamilakam. Then the region was divided into territories or kingdoms of Pandya, Chola, Chera, Pallava, Ganga, etc. I agree its difficult to co-relate present day state borders to old day kingdoms or cultural divisions. Thanks. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I had no such thing as 'ethnicity' in my mind while speaking of this Sitush. Thanks. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 23:59, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Ouch! It is getting still more complex. One of Hari's sources does refer to "Chola country" but whether it is one-sided or not, there is a subtext here. I'd say that is pretty obvious even if obscure in its detail. Perhaps you know what it is but probably it is more wise to allow Hari to respond.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 00:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Reply-to Sitush

Perhaps "...were born in what is today known as Tamil Nadu" would meliorate the sentence. My source says "Nathamuni was from a domiciled North Indian family of the chola country". If at all mentioning their birth places serves the purpose, i don't see anything wrong about mentioning what my source says. It doesn't contradict the contents of your source anyway. See below for the list of corrections to be made -

• The section's title "Common Origin" is pretty vague while its contents speak of philosophical origins. The subsects haven't been formally introduced yet, and the section describes the laying of foundation by the saints. Changing it to "Philosophical Origins" would be apt coz the current title is likely to be mistaken for something else, by hasty readers. I know how the viewers from India would interpret this, hence..........
  
• Ramanuja was a brahmin and hence documented his thoughts in sanskrit, which is part of brahmanical tradition. The sentence "...however he documented his thoughts in sanskrit" could be misleading. Sriperumbudur being Ramanuja's birth place is not an indicator of a tamil background. You've made a lot of assumptions in that area. Making it as "Ramanuja documented his works in sanskrit (without however)" would be better.
  
• The terminology "Brahmin Tamil" is applicable to both the Iyengar and Iyer dialects. The Iyer variant alone is not brahmin tamil by default. None of them are sourced anyway. According to the brahmin tamil wiki pg, both SriV & smartha variants have been listed. "Brahmin Tamil" is just a vague & loose term that is applicable to all brahmin dialects of Tamil Nadu, and not just the iyer/smartha variant. Subject knowledge is very essential to resolve these minor inconsistencies, otherwise the part "...almost identical to brahmin tamil" is likely to be mistaken for something else. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 08:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

To Sitush, I am opposed to the sub-heading Philosophical Origins. It should remain Common Origins; because that is what it is. Vadakalai and Thenkalai were a common community during the time of Ranamuja. They split into 2 sects only after Ramanuja's time. It appears Hari7478 wants to push the ethnic difference as his edit summary shows. Thanks. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

To Sitush, Have a doubt wrt the sentence "Nathamuni was from a domiciled North Indian family of the chola country". North-Indian means Northern part of Tamil land? Or current Northern India viz., the other side of Vindhyas? If latter, why don't we have the name of the kingdom? Please refer to Chola Country It is the Trichy-Tanjore area. This area is northern part of Tamilakam. So the sentence may simply mean an indian from the northern part of Tamil region i.e., the Chola country. But cannot be sure. I request Hari7478 to find us a source from the Srivaishnava hagiography (perhaps this is detailed in Tamil) which states the name of the northern indian kingdom / territory. Thanks.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:06, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I will respond to all the recent messages more fully tomorrow but, yes, it has been a concern of mine for some time regarding what "north" means and, yes, it has struck me that it may possibly mean the northern Tamil region rather than north India. However, I did see one source that mentioned one of the three spent some time in North India on travels and it did name some of the regions. I'd need to find that again and assess whether the source went any further in terms of linking "North India" to the more usual description of "Northists", "Northern culture", "Northern school" etc. To be honest, this issue is not helped by the poor quality of writing in many of the India-originated sources, which mirror Raghavan's very awkward "X belonged to ..." phrase I mention somewhere above. Indian English is different, sure, but the quality even of academic sources from that country seems to be particularly poor in relation to this subject. - Sitush (talk) 01:52, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Mayasutra, the source says "North Indian", and not "north tamilian/north tamilakam". That's the most stupid assumption i've ever come across. Are you trying to say that India means tamil land?

Since the section speaks of philosophical origins, there's nothing wrong in changing it to a more appropriate title. I'm wondering why you're bringing up the vadakalai thenkalai controversy. The section has mentions on the castes of the 3 saints(incl' nammalvar). A hasty reader is likely to misconstrue it, and we have to make it clear that it's not about ethnic origins. It has nothing to do with the subsects. duh! And the edit summary shows nothing, except i had changed the title to philosophical origins. If you're going to continue making wrong accusations, i may have to report it elsewhere. Hari7478 (talk) 12:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to have time today to reply as I promised above, but I will do. Can you verify that they existed as a community using the Iyengar name prior to the advent of Sri V.? - Sitush (talk) 21:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, I do think the source has to be taken at face value in the "domiciled North Indian family" case, although it would be good to have another source that confirms it and so far I've not found one. - Sitush (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, so far I have not found one either. If no other source available, I too think these things have to be taken at face value. But i suspect these things are well documented in Srivaishnava hagiography in Tamil. If available, will a Tamil source be acceptable for wiki? WRT your previous post, its not clear since when the term Iyengar was used. As far as Lester's paper (on Sattada SriVaishnavas) goes, the term Iyengar was used by Sattada SriVaishnavas too. So seems SriVaishnava brahmins were not the only people using it. However, not much info is available on this, So we will have to work within what is available to us. Now to Hari. Hari, read my msg again. No case for assumption, instead am expecting Sitush to consider why we do not have the name of the northern indian kingdom; and what else the sentence may mean. It is sheer stupidity to assume stupid assumptions. Your edit summary clearly shows your ethnic expectations. The origins of Vadakalai and Thenkalai are common and that is what Sitush has written with proper references. No need to assume a reader is going to be hasty or misconstrue it. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 03:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

To Mayasutra - A common pattern followed across wiki pages is that "Origin" is usually taken for ethnic origins unless otherwise mentioned. Since the section speaks of philosophical origins it rightfully deserves an appropriate heading. Also, there's no formal introduction of the subsects yet(before the common origins section). Please read Wikipedia:Article titles, and it doesn't matter what you and I think.

If the chola region was his ancestral town, they wouldn't have been specific about his north indian origin. However, "North Indian" can only have one meaning unless the author has mentioned north tamilian or whatever. India cannot be the same as tamil land. That being the case i wonder how north indian could be interpreted as north tamilian. As Sitush said, the source has to be taken at face value. I'm looking for another src though.

Reply to Sitush - I'm trying. I need some more time; a day or two(from now). Hari7478 (talk) 12:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hari7478, No idea how or what you assume about all wiki pages. Anyways, Vadakalai and Thenkalai were a common group before splitting; so no question of different ethnic origins for these two groups. I expect Sitush to deal with your profound competence with regard to this particular issue (of "ethnic origins") any further. Now coming to the other issue -- of the Chola country. Was only discussing (and agreeing) with Sitush what north may mean; because the term is very subjective and time-based. You say India cannot be the same as tamil land; but the 'country' we call 'India' today did not even exist in the past. If a Pandya writer in 600 BC located in the capital Korkai were to describe someone living in the Chola country (which was located to the north of Pandya Nadu (Pandya country)), he would still use the word 'north'. While Southern Andhra was ruled by Cholas or by feudatories, the case was not so with present day northern Andhra and Kalinga (present day Orissa). Northern Andhra and Kalinga were considered 'north' and is mentioned as such in quite a few books wrt to Tamil expeditions up 'north'. A person of domiciled north 'indian' family could have very well come from NorthernAndhra-Kalinga region to settle in the Chola region of Trichy-Tanjore. So if some other source is available to clarify location (i.e., kingdom of origin) for Nathamuni, it would greatly help. However, as said to Sitush earlier if no other source is available these things have to be taken at face value (and so yes I would accept it as such, though accuracy may be compromised). --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Again, this section is not about ethnic origins. When it speaks of philosophical origins, the title should be appropriate, as per Wikipedia:Article titles. Hari7478 (talk) 01:08, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Philosophical differences cropped up after the time of Ramanuja; leading to the schism and creation of 2 sects, Vadakalai and Thenkalai. So no question of a different philosophical orgin (whatever it means) for these two sects. Sitush has given a correct title of Common Origins. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Fully agreed, a birthplace does not define your ethnicity. Temporary 1010 (talk) 10:47, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, "all three men were Tamils" is a statement that's assumed. You could just say they were born in modern day Tamil Nadu. Branding a "Tamil" label on historic figures is subjective. Temporary 1010 (talk) 10:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not here to argue with you or to win. The section speaks of philosophical origins, not ethnic. As per Wikipedia:Article titles, the section rightfully deserves an appropriate title. Your point may not be understood by a non-iyengar. A stranger to this subject would expect an appropriate title, and may wonder "common to who", especially when there's no formal introduction of the subsects yet. Regardless of how others see it, the section needs to have a title that best describes the section, without bringing in other issues/facts, per Wikipedia:Article titles. That's all that matters here. Hari7478 (talk) 20:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

If either of you refer to the other as "stupid", query each other's competence or similar again then I'll be looking for an admin to step in. This is becoming extremely tiresome. As far as Tamil etc sources go, your guide is the usual WP:RS plus WP:NOENG. I'd much rather avoid them if possible because there is enough antagonism and linguistic debate going on here in the English language without the pair of you battling it out in some other tongue. - Sitush (talk) 20:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Got it. But your sources do not say they're tamils. They were just born in Tamil Nadu. And what about the title(common...) & dialect(language)? Is it possible for me to take this issue, along with that of including sources on genetics, to the ANI page? Hari7478 (talk) 21:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

We are discussing what to call it, since "Tamil born" and similar causes problems. I'd very much like to see a constructive suggestion from you regarding this. As for the section title, well, I contributed it and I think it is correct and will become more so as the section is expanded, which is my intent. I've no idea what you mean by "dialect (language)": there have been so many words typed here and at numerous other pages by yourself and Mayasutra that it is difficult to keep track, especially when it involves filtering out personal attacks, repetition and similar things. You'll have to dig out a diff for me, sorry.

ANI is not the place to take content disputes. You would need to pursue dispute resolution as you have previously said you would. - Sitush (talk) 21:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The section Languages & Dialects - The terminology "Brahmin Tamil" is applicable to both the Iyengar and Iyer dialects. The Iyer variant alone is not brahmin tamil by default. None of them are sourced anyway. According to the brahmin tamil wiki pg, both SriV & smartha variants have been listed. "Brahmin Tamil" is just a vague & loose term that is applicable to all brahmin dialects of Tamil Nadu, and not just the iyer/smartha variant. Subject knowledge is very essential to resolve these minor inconsistencies, otherwise the part "...almost identical to brahmin tamil" is likely to be mistaken for something else. Also, when the section is about philosophical origins, how's the title "common origins" helpful? Do you think a non-iyengar, who has no idea of the subject, will be able to understand? Per Wikipedia:Article titles, "Philosophical Origins" could be the appropriate title. By the way, i'll come up with a constructive suggestion regarding tamil etc, soon. Hari7478 (talk) 22:00, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the language stuff - that it was unsourced was already known to me but I wasn;t aware that it had been discussed here. With regard to the section naming, please read WP:TE - you are just repeating yourself interminably. You have had responses and seem now to be in the "I didn't hear that" state, which is almost certainly not going to help your cause in dispute resolution.

Finally, since you have yet again raised the issue of Mayasutra's behaviour in this thread, I am going to find that admin. I've had enough of this. - Sitush (talk) 22:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I was a little frustrated about Mayasutra posting a diff of my edit summary, earlier. I apologize. I'm really sorry. Will come up with more suggestions regarding the issue ie being discussed. Hari7478 (talk) 23:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, like you said earlier I give up. Hari7478 first said i made the most stupid assumption he came across and i thot it was sheer stupidity to assume stupid assumptions. I don't think either of us are complaining about that though. Its the content we are complaining about. We've been stuck with that one sentence; and i seriously do not care for accuracy anymore. So please go ahead and decide what you want to do with the sentence and the rest of the content here. My experience with Hari7478 is all forms of talking or reasoning out, out on talk page fail. If he wants to do POV pushing, so be it. But i will keep a watch out if he misquotes sources. That's the only thing i can do. Seriously, its sad to see what indians are coming to. Everywhere its the same story with certain classes --- they are so casteist it makes them hell bent on seeing themselves genetically different from the rest. How much more genetic studies are going to be abused by such people i don't know. It seems, even linguists do not like to be involved when it comes to indian castes. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I guess i already apologized. Playing victim isn't going to do any good. Again, you're accusing me of things i didn't do. The whole thing started with a new source that i was trying to include. Hope you understand. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

And you are accusing me of things i did not do -- stop alleging me of playing victim -- your baseless assumptions are getting dumber. New source or old source, its always about (somehow) bringing in the issue of northindian, european and aryan. And i thot i saw only one wannabe-european desperado on familytreedna forum (needless to say he was a 'brahmin'). --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I guess your comments are beyond reasonable allowance for speculation, while they don't pertain to the discussion. I don't think I discredited your views often, while you've evidently discredited mine & constantly questioned my competence. I can prove my point, but i don't want to, and i've apologized for what happened today. Despite that you're being openly offensive(in my opinion). Even though i was willing to cooperate, your response(in your talk page, sometime back) was evident of your unwillingness. And, yahoo is the only public forum where i enter a group discussion on various topics, and currently i don't live in India. So, you better watch it before alleging me to be someone offwiki. I'm totally flabbergasted by this ungrounded assumption of yours. Hari7478 (talk) 02:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Am sorry there is some misunderstanding here -- there was absolutely no intention to allege you of being someone off wiki. I was just lamenting about something i had come across -- WRT this particular point of misunderstanding, i apologize profusely -- am very sorry. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 03:20, 27 February 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

There are baseline genetic differences though. Literally every person interested in south asian genetics knows that Brahmins are a genetic outlier to the native populations (except north west India). A simple google search would be enough to educate you on that, without even having to go into the free-to-use genealogy websites.

Other communities may claim whatever, but Brahmins have backing of genetics for their claims due to practices like endogamy for hundreds of years.

I don't know what denying the obvious leaves for you to gain? Temporary 1010 (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Getting back to the topic, Sitush asked for a constructive suggestion on "Tamil born", etc. "All three men were born in present day's Tamil Nadu" could be a better alternative. For instance, C. Rajagopalachari(Rajaji) was born in Thorapalli, Madras presidency(present day's TN). The region has had many official names in the past. Either of "present day's TN" or "what's today known as TN" would be right. And, i couldn't find an additional source for "domiciled north indian family". "Anthology on Sanskrit Literature" is the only src, as of now. Hari7478 (talk) 21:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that form of wording was suggested as a possible solution earlier. Since even you have been unable to find another source for the North Indian bit, we need to ascertain the reliability of the single source that we have and then, if it is ok, somehow shoehorn the point into the article. I still think it is pretty much irrelevant without some context (why is it significant?), so it might be difficult to do that. - Sitush (talk) 21:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

[1] - although it doesn't say anything about "domiciled....of the chola region", it says something like "belonged to the north", which follows the sentence "...Kashmir and other parts of north". It says he's from North itself. So, i guess we have to go with that single source(Anthology...). But it helps. Just like how mentioning their birthplaces(present day's tamil nadu) helps a viewer understand "where it was established, and how the prabandhic part was incorporated", Nathamuni's ancestry helps in understanding "the sanskritic tradition of brahmins in general, and the brahmanical form of vaishnavism" which is widespread in North. Hari7478 (talk) 22:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea where all your quotes come from and at least one of the - "he's from the North itself" - is clearly ambiguous along the lines we have recently discussed (ie: North of what?). You will have to let me know who you are quoting and what pages numbers. Off the top of my head, I am not convinced but I am prepared to be persuaded. I've already commented on Raghavan and, basically, he has exactly the same problem as you, ie: there is no context and it is a passing mention. - Sitush (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't exactly say "he's from North itself", but something like that. See here:[2] - Pg.8, 25th line - It says "there were affiliations between south indian shaivism and vaishnavism and the forms of these two sects are practiced in Kashmir and other parts of North. Saints and scholars like Tirumular & Nathamuni belonged to the North". Hari7478 (talk) 22:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, all of those last "quotes" of yours were paraphrases of Raghavan. Well, we are in agreement then: Raghavan is useless for our immediate purposes because the word "belonged" is ambiguous and vaishnavism is not Sri Vaishnavism. So, we are back with the one "domiciled North Indian family" comment. How are you wanting to see that in the article, please, bearing in mind that we should not infer things because that would be weaseling. - Sitush (talk) 07:08, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Probably after the section's opening sentence "...who lived around 900 CE". "He belonged to a domiciled North Indian family of the chola region" would be appropriate. The last line could be changed to "All 3 men were born in present day's Tamil Nadu", followed by "Ramanuja documented his thoughts in sanskrit " without "although". Ramanuja was a brahmin and hence documented his works in sanskrit, which is part of brahmanical tradition. There's no need to add "although". And, please take a look at the "language & dialect" stuff. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 19:36, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Your proposal re: the single-sourced North Indian connection is technically a violation of copyright but this is one of those instances where I think it would be difficult not to violate. You still have not explained why this might be relevant. And your assessment of Ramanuja vs Sanskrit is original research - there are even people who claim Brahmins were of Dravidian origin, for example. The "although" is significant because the movement was Tamil-based and, in so far as I am aware, is still principally a south Indian belief system. I agree that it is a clumsy phrase but if ever I am given the time to expand the section further then it might make more sense, albeit drifting even further away from what should be the focus of this article. And I think that you know this to be the case, sorry.

I'm not interested in the language and dialect stuff right now: it is obvious to me and to others that there is some sort of underlying POV here, on one or more sides. Until that is resolved, I see no point in moving on to other issues that may well relate to the similar positions being taken. Linguistics are not really my thing anyway, so my proposal would be to delete the section unless it is reliably sourced. - Sitush (talk) 01:28, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

North of India obviously. Not everything revolves around only Tamil Country. No one is going to make a distinction between the north and south of the same Kingdom, when it wasn't comparatively that big. North and South India distinction remains because India is a huge country divided by the Vindhya range. Tamil Country was not divided in any way to make the North and South of it ethnically, culturally, linguistically different (apart from the development languages like Telugu, Malayalam etc but all these descend from proto dravidian, just like Tamil, regardless). Temporary 1010 (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

[3], [4], [5] - According to these sources, it seems vadakalais accept sanskrit vedas while thenkalais compiled a veda of their own(4000 prabhandas). Well, i don't know what to say. By the way, the popular belief is that the movement was visishtadvaita(qualified non-dualism) based, as opposed to advaita. Some believe in "vaishnava centrism as opposed to shaivism/smarthism". I don't think it's tamil based. While the philosophical origin is traced back to Nathamuni, Ramanuja is the most revered saint/scholar who hasn't composed any literaric work in tamil. It was Ramanuja(founder of visishtadvaita, and the main proponent of srivaishnavism) who initiated the movement. It's just the guruparampara(formal salute) that starts with Nathamuni. And, Nathamuni's north indian origin helps understand "brahmanical vaishnavism" which(before his time) was widespread in North, while it "was either unknown or had a relatively negligible presence/following" in south. I guess this calls for more discussions. Hari7478 (talk) 02:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, It is totally wrong to say Thenkalais compiled a Veda of their own. Nathamuni (the first acharya for both Vadakalai and Thenkalai) compiled the Prabandhams. Both Vadakalais and Thenkalais recite the mesmerizing prabandhams. See this talk (Vadakalai priests talking on Prabandhams / releasing a CD on it). Whatever is 'Sanskritic' stuff appears merely to refer to acceptance of caste system by Vadakalai and rejection by Thenkalai. So manner of adherence to Sanskrit dharmashastras is the only point of difference; since Thenkalais also perform homams (fire sacrifices) in Sanskrit. The Acharya Parampara (lineage of gurus) for both Vadakalai and Thenkalai is the same upto Ramanuja. After Ramanuja onwards it bifurcates. The Vadakalai acharya thaniyan pays obeisance to Vedanta Desikan and the Thenkalai pay their respects to Manavala muni. This is just one of the numerous posts mentioning the acharya paramparai (lineage of gurus) on the internet (list starts with Sriman Narayana and is upto Ramanuja, please see Nathamuni and NammAzhwAr mentioned in it). If someone does not know this, it is doubtful he is an Iyengar at all, let alone the european clamor for Vadakalai. The above post appears to be a deliberate mischief to mislead anyone unaware of these things. There are many versions and forms of Vaishnavism; including Krishnaism. The Ramanuja Sampradaya of Sri Vaishnavism is unknown in north india. Not just Ramanuja but all teachers of the Ramanuja sampradaya were born, remained and flourished in South India; though some went to north india on pilgrimage, exploration or to collect manuscripts, and returned to south. I suggest crosschecking the sources of Hari7478 since some pages are not available for viewing. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 03:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Sitush, just for info sake please see this for Acharya Parampara after Ramanuja. As for claims of brahmanical vaishnavism it should be noted we are talking here, of Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya only (which mainly follows Pancharatra Agamas and Bhagavatism) Not about other forms of Vaishnavism. Pancharatra Agamas (for that matter all idol worshiping sampradayas) were non-vedic in origin. So was Bhagavatism. But merging with the vedic religion happened. So did merging of Pancharatra and Bhagavatism. Relevant info on Pancharatra, Bhagavatism, Sri Sampradaya and various forms of Vaishnavism, should go into their relevant page with all debatable content on them in their respective talk page. Any debate on Nathamuni should go into that article's talk page. I think we should stop being stuck on this here, and move on to adding content to the section on Religious Observances. Though sources are numerous, am still trying to find the most authoritative sources for that section. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

• First of all, these sources(on Srivaishnavism) of historical writing have not cited or looked into eyewitness documents from the 14th century(manuscripts, memoirs/diaries, autobiographies and interviews conducted on the witnesses) because there are none. The historians atleast need a summary of an eyewitness report that has survived. In other cases, the author must be a direct witness. They are, more or less, sources(likely to be primary) based on hearsays & methodological assumptions/deductive reasoning. That being the case, one cannot argue about one set of sources being true and the other being false. Out of these three [6], [7], [8] one of them is from the famous Monier Williams, and another from a foreign author & a co-author, while the third is a tertiary source.
• The other user's sources are SriV sites. Even i can provide videos of Velukudi Krishnan and other thenkalai scholars praising desika(the vadakalai acharya), and point out thenkalais who recite desika's hymns. That doesn't mean they follow/worship Desika. In the same way, Vadakalai scholars speaking of prabhandam needn't mean anything at all.
• The term Srivaishnavism was coined during/after Ramanuja's time while Nathamuni's life ended before Ramanuja was born. During Nathamuni's lifetime, it was still Vaishnavism(most likely). There was no Ramanuja sampradaya during Nathamuni's days. And yes, Nathamuni's north indian origin helps understand "brahmanical vaishnavism" which(before his time) was widespread in North, while it "was either unknown or had a relatively negligible presence/following" in south. I don't see anything wrong in mentioning Nathamuni's north indian background.
• Sitush, the popular belief is that the movement was visishtadvaita(qualified non-dualism) based, as opposed to advaita. Some believe in "vaishnava centrism as opposed to shaivism/smarthism". I don't think it's tamil based. While the philosophical origin is traced back to Nathamuni, Ramanuja is the most revered saint/scholar who hasn't composed any literaric work in tamil. It was Ramanuja(founder of visishtadvaita, and the main proponent of srivaishnavism) who initiated the movement. It's just the guruparampara(formal salute) that starts with Nathamuni. I'm reposting these three sources, again - [9], [10], [11].
• By the way, I guess we could delete the section on languages & dialect, as you mentioned before.

Sitush, please respond. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Hari, I am under no obligation to respond within minutes or even days of you posting a message here. I have a real life and (like many people) some considerable awkwardness in it. Every time I take a couple of days or more away from Wikipedia, it takes me several hours just to catch up and maintain the 1500 or so items on my watchlist, let alone try to develop something else here or elsewhere. There is no need to keep adding talkbacks to this page or to ask for a response: you'll get one, and you can usually expect it to be reasonably prompt. Equally, Mayasutra, if you want to do something with the section on beliefs then just go do it rather than repeating yourself here. If you anticipate that something you might want to say could be controversial then by all means raise it on this page first.

Both of you, much of your recent comments simply go over my head: they seem to be mixing various sources with personal knowledge and povs etc. I am working only off reliable sources: I started working on this article with no knowledge at all and I am reading extensively rather than searching for particular terms, which can often distort results. I am not saying that I have got it right but I most certainly am reflecting the sources that I have read, a fair few of which were either already in the article, are cited by works already here or have been mentioned by one or both of you. If any of the ones that you have mentioned over this weekend are available to me then I'll add them to my reading list. There is no deadline. - Sitush (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You're right. BUT, i have to ask you whether you are in accord with the Wikipedia:Ownership of articles guideline regarding this topic. Your response "I contributed the title and i think its right and is likely to be more so in future" doesn't seem right. I've explained my stand in this regard. Even if making a new contrib might take some time, removing existing data on "all three men being tamil" should've been swift, until the matter is resolved. None of the sources say it anyway. Despite my explanation as to why Nathamuni's northern background is important, you keep saying that i haven't explained why, yet. Now, there are a new set of sources that say "4000 was compiled by thenkalais, while vadakalais adhere to the sanskritic part" authored by famous names too. And, i've explained why the movement isn't necessarily tamil based. When you rightfully reverted my recent edit, with the edit summary "first reinstate the sources", i guess the same is applicable to you(of all), w.r.t the title and tamils. I'm sorry. Hari7478 (talk) 21:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

WRT this point made by Hari7478 -"And yes, Nathamuni's north indian origin helps understand brahmanical vaishnavism which(before his time) was widespread in North, while it was either unknown or had a relatively negligible presence/following in south". There is most certainly evidence the Pancharatra Agamas were being followed in pre-Ramanuja days in South India. The Pancharatra Agamas remained the core basis for both post-Ramanuja sects, the Vadakalais and the Thenkalais. So Hari7478 needs to clarify what is this "brahmanical vaishnavism" which Nathamuni was following. And what does the term "brahmanical vaishnavism" mean; and in which kingdom of northern indian regions was it being followed (with time period). And thanks Sitush, i will start adding content on Religious Observances in a couple of days.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 22:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Sitush, Two of Hari7478's sources are not visible to me. Only one, the Monier Williams source, is visible -- it says Thenkalai have compiled a veda of their own (viz., the 4000 prabandhams) and it is older than the Sanskrit Veda. It is apparent Monier Williams is wrong. Nathamuni compiled the 4000 prabandhams, not the Thenkalais. During Nathamuni's time there was no such thing as Thenkalai and Vadakalai. Nathamuni predates even Ramanuja. Sources of SV hagiography themselves says Nathamuni compiled the 4000 prabandhams. Moreover, Monier Williams says the 4000 prabandhams are older than the Sanskrit Veda; for which there is no evidence whatsoever. The 4000 prabandhams were collected by Nathamuni as was available during his lifetime. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 22:47, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Monier William's source says "thenkalais held it to be older than vedas, but they are actually based on their upanishad portions". That was the thenkalai opinion(as he says), not williams's, and he opposes their position. Read through the lines. The other two are only available for snippet viewing, but the necessary part that matters can be viewed. Hari7478 (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Hari, you have yet again committed errors of original research in your responses subsequent to my last message here. I am also, yet again, bewildered by one of your assertions, namely "Despite my explanation as to why Nathamuni's northern background is important ...". I cannot for the life of me spot where you explained this amongst the reams of text on this page. Given that you are also consistently pursuing a very peculiar position elsewhere in relation to this article - eg: at User talk:Qwyrxian - despite the opinions expressed by three other contributors, well, you either move this issue onwards as you have previously said you would on more than one occasion, or you back off, or you end up being sanctioned. We have reached the end of this particular line as far as I am concerned. There is something odd going on: perhaps it makes perfect sense to you but you are not communicating well whatever message it is you wish to promote. And I use the word "promote" advisedly because it really does seem to be some sort of POV even though I cannot work out what it may be. - Sitush (talk) 00:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

The one in qwyrxian's talk page was another issue. Here, what i wanted to know was "why does a line, ie not supported by your sources, still exist in the main article in the name of 'ongoing discussions in talk page'"? Secondly, your explanation on keeping the title. And mayasutra providing SriV sources to support his claims was the one i was talking about in reply to his message. And, finally, the contradicting sources authored by some famous names. None of these sources(both yours & mine) have made use of eyewitness documents from those years(11th to 14th century). That being the case, mayasutra rejecting those sources(based on "i don't know what grounds") and describing the prabandhams to be "mesmerizing" was POVy to me. I'm sorry ab't this talk, but wasn't this POV obvious to you? And how do you establish the connectivity amongst the issues that i'm raising that you're suspecting some sort of POV "you don't know what"? And please read my comments before this one(the one expressed under 5 different points). You'll understand what i was trying to say. Hari7478 (talk) 01:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, This is absolutely ridiculous. I said both Vadakalai and Thenkalai recite the mesmerizing prabandhams because Hari7478 claimed "vadakalais accept sanskrit vedas while thenkalais compiled a veda of their own(4000 prabhandas)". I did not ask for the term "mesmerizing" to be included in the article (it being my own POV) unlike Hari7478 who is hell bent on pushing his peculiar POVs in the article. It is clear both Vadakalai and Thenkalai recite both, the Sanskrit Vedas and the Tamil Prabandhams. It is apparent Hari7478 is pushing a POV such that Thenkalais are associated only with Tamil and Vadakalai with Sanskrit, and by doing so, somehow wants to portray an ethnic difference. Which is why he is so hell bent on removing the word Tamil and the word although from the sentences he is disputing. Enough of this nonsense. More than high time you took a final call on this Sitush. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 04:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Mayasutra, i guess this is it. Atleast, i didn't provide SriV sources like you did. I've provided three Neutral sources that say vadakalais are for sanskrit while thenkalais adhere to tamil - [12], [13], [14]. Since you're talking about me, i see no problem in pointing out your mistakes. What makes you think these sources are unreliable? They are equally reliable as the ones mentioned in the main article. That being the case, on what basis did you conclude "thenkalais compiling their own vedas/prabandham to be wrong?" By the way, Monier William's source says "thenkalais held it to be older than vedas, but they are actually based on their upanishad portions". That was the thenkalai opinion(as he says), not williams's, and he opposes their position. Read through the lines. The other two are only available for snippet viewing, but the necessary part that matters can be viewed. I'm sure you knew it before raising those two questions in your previous comment. Please take note that by doing so, you're leaving me with diff evidence. And, why are you so hell bent in dissociating any north indian origins despite an available source? By the way, ofcourse you didn't ask for including "mesmerizing" in the main article. But, even in talk pages, your comments could reflect neutrality and not be bent towards one specific thing(especially when "Dravidian-linguistics & castes" seem to be your area of work in wiki, mostly). And when did i try to portray ethnic difference? Yet again, you're assuming things i never said. So, once again, let me remind you that you are leaving me with diff evidence.

To-Sitush: Just because i didn't explain them properly with links doesn't mean there was original research. I'm busy and i'm finding it hard to provide reasons. I'm often forgetting things that i plan on mentioning. According to the above mentioned sources, it seems it is one of the groups who compiled the tamil prabhandams. Even many of those sources that speak of nathamuni's hand in prabandhams, refer to vadakalai & thenkalai as sanskrit & tamil schools respectively. I do have some sources according to which the reformatory movement was visishtadvaita & vaishnavism based , as opposed to shankara's advaita & shaivism/smarthism. To avoid confusion arising out of these long walls of texts, allow me to post it in your talk page, sometime later/whenever you say. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 04:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Hari7478, So you are saying Nathamuni did not compile the 4000 prabandhams, the Thenkalais did. And Monier Williams said so. Williams merely translated Sanskrit into English. He did not research into Prabandhams. Not just SV hagiography, but several authors, including Lester, have mentioned Nathamuni compiled the Prabandhams (and set them to music and got them to be used in temple sevais). According to you (and not according to Monier Williams), the Vadakalis have nothing to do with the Prabandhams. So, prove that Vadakalai do not recite the 4000 tamil prabandhams. Plus you think Vadakalais deal with Sanskrit Vedas alone. So, prove that Vadakalais are not following Pancharatra agamas. Explain what is "brahmanical vaishnavism" which you said (so far) that Nathamuni was following. Added to it you are keen on portraying as if Thenkalais deal with Tamil prabandhams alone. So, prove that Thenkalais do not perform homams in Sanskrit. Basically with all this drama and circumventing existing content on main article, what you are driving at it Vadakalai should be associated with Sanskrit alone, and Thenkalai with Tamil alone. Hence, they are ethnically diff, right? Of course you are hell bent on the ethnic point. That's exactly what you have been driving at since quite a number of years on this article. Your desperation to link Vadakali with Sanskrit alone and Thenkalais with Tamil alone is enough evidence of your intent. And cut the useless talk on that one word "mesmerizing". This is a talk page and i am entitled to state my opinions (am not asking them to be mentioned in main article). Don't try to justify your baseless POV pushing in the main article. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 07:48, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Mayasutra, although i haven't mentioned a word on ethnic differences, you're repeatedly making false allegations knowing where it'll lead you here What do you mean by "according to you and not monier williams"? Indeed according to Monier Williams and other sources here [15], [16], [17], [18], [19] Vadakalais accept the vedas while thenkalais compiled a veda(4000 prabandhams) of their own. That was williams's published work and not just a translation of somebody else's work. How could you argue that one set of sources(that support your standpoint) are right while the others are wrong? And stop asking me to prove things like vadakalais don't recite prabandhams in real life. Stick to the sources. Even many of those sources that speak of nathamuni's hand in prabandhams, refer to vadakalai & thenkalai as sanskrit & tamil schools respectively.

To-Sitush: With these long walls of texts i guess you might skip my previous message, and so i'm responding to your query again. again. I'm often forgetting things that i plan on mentioning. I do have some sources according to which the reformatory movement was visishtadvaita & vaishnavism based , as opposed to shankara's advaita & shaivism/smarthism. To avoid confusion arising out of these long walls of texts, allow me to post it in your talk page, sometime later/whenever you say. I'm really annoyed by Mayasutra's wrong allegations. Sorry if i've offended you. Hari7478 (talk) 12:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Only this Monier Williams source is visible to me. The rest are not. So I can comment only on this source. Hari7478 said "Monier William's source says thenkalais held it to be older than vedas, but they are actually based on their upanishad portion. That was the thenkalai opinion(as he says), not williams's, and he opposes their position. Read through the lines". So Monier Williams is mentioning the Thenkalai opinion, not his own. Hence, if Thenkalais claim they compiled the 4000 prabandhams or that prabandhams are older than vedas, of course its not true. Its merely the Thenkalai POV. So on what basis should your sources (which merely mention Thenkalai POV) be considered correct? That Nathamuni (the first acharya of both vadakalai and thenkalai) compiled the 4000 prabandhams is a fact from numerous sources. Though ofcourse now you claim its not about ethnic diff, you do not realize, how annoying and offensive your frequent circumventing is, merely to accommodate your POV pushing of Vadakalai=Sanskrit-Only and Thenkalai=Tamil-Only (the underlying basis of which is obvious). Am not asking you to prove stuff in real life. Am asking you to provide written proof, ie., sources which mention (a) that Vadakalais do not recite the 4000 tamil Prabandhams, (b) that Vadakalais do not follow Pancharatra agamas (c) that Thenkalais do not perform homams in Sanskrit, and finally (d) explain "brahmanical vaishnavism" which you said (so far) that Nathamuni was following. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 19:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Mayasutra, please don't try to dupe me. You're simply twisting it. "Compiling the prabandhams" is not the thenkalai claim, it's the author's information. The "older than vedas part" is the thenkalai claim, which the author rejects. No one is going to mention that in the main article. I'm not blind. And, according to sources, Kashmir is the source of pancharatra agamas - [20], [21]. When the time comes(pretty soon), i'm sure Sitush will look into these sources. Currently, i'm discussing another matter with him. For your information, we mention what they(brahmin subsects) do/practice(with the help of sources), and not what they don't. Hari7478 (talk) 20:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Vadakalais and Thenkalais are genetically the same stock, closely related with all Pancha Dravid Brahmans, along with the greater Brahmin family in general.

The differences are in philosophies, which are much more recent in origin and are loosely defined.

Thenkalais have always performed and revered the Sanskrit side of the Vedic tradition while ALSO respecting the works of the 12 alwars. That doesn't mean they reject anything, and place anything above anything else. Same applies to Vadakalais. Temporary 1010 (talk) 11:16, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

So you get to decide which portion of the sentence is the author's information and which portion is Thenkalais' claim. What you claim and what Monier Williams supposedly says cannot serve as a ground to discredit Nathamuni, from the effort of collecting prabandhams, to which he dedicated his lifetime; especially in the presence of several other sources which credit Nathamuni with the effort. Monier Williams did no research whatsoever into prabandhams. As for Pancharatra, there are 2 views of origin, one is south india and another kashmir. Pancharatra is a compilation of more than 200 texts. The content will go into Pancharatra article. And btw, just because some texts originated in Kashmir does not automatically mean Vadakalais are European, Aryan, Northindian. Please reply to points a,b,c and d. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Again, you're twisting it. I haven't mentioned a word on ethnicity or Aryan. You're unnecessarily linking unrelated stuff to this discussion. Two of the five sources(including Monier williams & subodh kapoor) are available for full viewing, while the rest are only visible in a snippet window, however the parts that matter are visible through the snippet window. I've even posted all of it in the ANI pg. It's a direct copy-paste from the sources. So, there's no way you can use the word "supposedly" in this case. I'm sure we'll go by a "step by step" process, and all sources 'll be considered and hopefully sorted out, by Sitush, very soon. By the way, your comments "Nathamuni...dedicated his lifetime, etc" sounds a lot POV-y to me(in my opinion). And, as mentioned before, we include data on what the members of the subgroups do, and not on what they don't. Also, there's no need for hasty replies and decisions, here. Hari7478 (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, please take a call on this. Hari7478 claims Nathamuni did not compile the 4000 prabandhams, the Thenkalais did. His sources are Monier Williams, Subodh Kapoor and few others. Except Monier Williams' book, am not able to view other sources -- no idea why. Previously WRT the 4 issues too he give specific sentences, without the whole context, whilst also misquoting sources. Also kindly note he has not answered to points a,b,c and d. Alternatively Sitush, would you suggest WP:DR since this article is not moving past Hari7478's 3 main issues -- european, aryan, northindian. And btw Hari7478, that Nathamuni dedicated his lifetime is not my POV. Both Thenkalai and Vadakalai accept Nathamuni collected / compiled Prabandhams, set them to music and instituted them in temple services over the years. Its been detailed in SV hagiography -- some details are here (p.95-97). --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:16, 5 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I am trying to catch up on developments that occurred across hundreds of articles during my recent absence. Simultaneously, I am trying to do whatever is required for new issues. There is a gap in this method, which is issues that arose during my absence and which are ongoing. Of those, this one is by far the most awkward and I'm barely keeping track of who says what and when, let alone looking into the points raised. Hopefully, time will soon be available to address it. I do need to check an ever-growing list of sources. We need to bear in mind that if reliable sources have different opinions then we are supposed to show all of those opinions. Assessing reliability is going to be a key issue and, with no offence intended, another issue is likely to be the clarity of sources based in India, which sometimes appear vague or ambiguous perhaps due to cultural differences in the nuances of the language. It really is rather messy and it obviously means quite a lot to both of you, so I really need to try not to jump to conclusions. I am wondering if it might be best for both of you to desist from adding further to this thread for a few days until I've caught up. You can keep lists of points/sources that you want to raise on your own computers or even old-fashioned paper, and then weigh in when I gone through the voluminous contents of this thread and posted notes & queries. This last is just a suggestion: I cannot insist on it but right now the situation seems to be akin to trying to hit a moving target. And I am not a good shot. - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Who said "european, aryan" or anything? You really are twisting his words. Kashmiris are not European, they are very much South Asian.

And all Brahmins are Aryan by culture, they follow Brahmanism, and the Vedic culture which was an Indo-Aryan settlement in Northwest India.

Regardless of adopted local customs like the Prabandams, the general practices of a Brahmin are followed by both sects of Iyengars. Gotras, recitation of Vedas, Abhivadaye, Upanayana, Sandhyavandana, fire sacrifices (havan), ancestor worship etc.

Genetically, "aryan" is very controversial, however most people agree that the so called "aryans" are synonymous with the pastoralists who came from the Steppes of Central Asia, who brought with them the Indo-Aryan languages to India. Most Indians do not have much of this component in their DNA while Brahmins and certain other tribes do have a significant portion of their ancestry associated with these people. They are definitely different to the local Tamils. Migration isn't a ruled out option at all. In fact there are documentations of Kashmiri Brahmins relocating to Tirunelveli and integrating with the Tamil Brahmin community there.

So what is your point? Temporary 1010 (talk) 11:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Summarized point wise

Sitush, just summarizing points of current dispute, in case this is going to WP:DR:

• Hari7478 says Nathamuni did not compile 4000 prabandhams, the Thenkalais did. His sources are (copy-pasted from above) -- [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]. Verification of sources is required.
• Hari7478 says Vadakalais accept the vedas while thenkalais compiled a veda(4000 prabandhams) of their own. Fact is, Vadakalai acharya parampara (linage of gurus) is also derived from Nammalvar (one of the alvars who sang the prabandhams). Hence, Vadakalais priests also recite prabandhams as part of temple services. For both Vadakalai and Thenkalai the acharya parampara is the same until Ramanuja (and it includes Nathamuni and Nammalvar). This source details the Acharya Parampara but is in Tamil. In English, this may help. Additionally, Hari7478 has not provided sources proving Thenkalais do not perform fire sacrifices in Sanskrit. Hence, I contend the association of Sanskrit-Vedas with Vadakalai-only and Tamil-prabandhams with Thenkalais-only is ill-founded.

Not sure if the below have already been reconciled, yet summarizing:

• Hari7478 wants to include the point Nathamuni belonged to "a domiciled North Indian family of the chola region". This point is unclear and vague. A country called India did not exist in the past. The source does not tell us "north" is north of which kingdom.
• Hari7478 says Nathamuni's ancestry helps in understanding "the sanskritic tradition of brahmins in general, and the brahmanical form of vaishnavism" which is widespread in North. However, he refuses to explain what is "brahmanical vaishnavism"; considering both, Thenkalais and Vadakalais follow Pancharatra Agamas.
• Hari7478 wants you to remove the word "although" from the sentence "..although Ramanuja documented his thoughts in Sanskrit".
• Hari7478 wants to take this Kanthimathi paper on genetics to ANI.

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

There are more differences of opinion than you have listed. This "summary" looks more like another attempt to reiterate your own position and is far from being neutral in its wording. Doubtless, Hari would say things differently and so I'll likely be ignoring it. - Sitush (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Looks like I missed 2 more points.

• Language (dialect)-- Hari7478 wants the wording of this sentence to be changed "...almost identical to brahmin tamil".
• Title -- Hari7478 wants the title Common Origins changed to Philosophical Origins.

Summarized the above not with the intention to reiterate own position (since have already very well discussed them here). Just made the issues point wise in case we are going to WP:DR. WRT neutrality if you say the wording is not right i'll accept it. I trust your judgement. In case, we are going to DR, then will help to know where the wording is not right. If not, its OK, we can leave it. Thanks. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 23:38, 5 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I am still trawling through sources, sorry. In particular, I am trying to find any reference to the Iyengar community prior to the emergence of acharyas. No luck so far: it really seems that Iyengar is a community formed as a consequence of/originating in self-identification with Sri Vaishnaivism, although we cannot say that either without a source. Although I am reading generally, I am also keen to find support for Hari's emphasis on the "north" connections - no luck there, either. - Sitush (talk) 16:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Oops sorry, had stopped checking this page and missed your post. Yes, I too agree the community traces its origins from the time of its acharyas. However, they are priests following Pancharatra. So, it seems before the emergence of their acharyas (and before the emergence of Vishistadvaita), they were just pancharatra priests. But yet to find a source on it. Am not able to find sources for the north connection either. As for "Iyengar dialect" I found this snippet sentence on google books from the source you mentioned below Structure and Change in Indian Society: "The Tengalai Iyengar dialect is a well-marked Brahman dialect, distinctly recognized as such by the Tengalai Iyengars themselves and by other castes in the speech community". Though i have no access to the pages you mention, the book seems to recognizes Iyengar dialect as brahmin dialect. So i agree with Hari7478 that the Language (dialect) sentence should be changed --- to reflect that Iyengar dialect is a brahmin dialect. Thanks. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 02:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Iyengar community prior to Srivaishnavism:

[27] - "The Northerners (Vadagalais) as opposed to the Southerners(Thenkalais, earlier settled)...". The paragraph starts with a brief description on "occupation of South by people from the North possessing or professing Aryan culture...".

Vadakalai - [28] - "The Vadama & Vadakalai who belong to different sects but have northern origin in common as indicated by the tamil prefix vada...". Vadamas are a subsect of Iyer brahmins.

Thenkalai - I don't think all Thenkalais have common ancestors, or share a common origin. According to these sources - [29], [30], "certain southern school brahmins(Tengalai Srivaishnavas) can be identified as former sudras from their manners and customs". So, it's not like the non-brahmins form a separate faction within "Tenkalai-vaishnavism" but rather "got converted to/became Tenkalai Brahmins".

Although not much, I suppose these sources could be put to use. Hari7478 (talk) 23:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I've just glanced at the recent posts but have run out of time. I'll try to respond tomorrow. Sorry about this. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Was able to find sources on Pancharatra and vaikhanasa traditions, but i'll discuss them here once we're done with the information posted above. Regarding Ghurye, any luck with the Resource exchange process? Hari7478 (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Language/dialect

I've been considering the purchase of Singer & Cohn's Structure and Change in Indian Society (reprinted isbn is 9780202369334) but it has gone down my list for various reasons. It is, however, clearly a good source and around pages 460-462 it discusses the various dialects etc. It is a collection of papers, so I'll see if I can find the relevant paper at JSTOR - if anyone actually has access to the book then it would at least partially resolve one of the many problems recently raised. - Sitush (talk) 00:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Origin of Iyengars prior to Srivaishnavism, Vadakalai & Thenkalai, Pancharatra & Vaikhanasa.

Although some of these points were previously discussed under unrelated topics, i'm posting them again so that those comments which were overlooked due to terribly formatted posts and massive walls of texts could now be understood by editors.

Iyengar community prior to Srivaishnavism:
[31] - "The Northerners (Vadagalais) as opposed to the Southerners(Thenkalais, earlier settled)...". The paragraph starts with a brief description on "occupation of South by people from the North possessing or professing Aryan culture...".
Vadakalai - [32] - "The Vadama & Vadakalai who belong to different sects but have northern origin in common as indicated by the tamil prefix vada...". Vadamas are a subsect of Iyer brahmins.
Thenkalai - I don't think all Thenkalais have common ancestors, or share a common origin. According to these sources - [33], [34], "certain southern school brahmins(Tengalai Srivaishnavas) can be identified as former sudras from their manners and customs". So, it's not like the non-brahmins form a separate faction within "Tenkalai-vaishnavism" but rather "got converted to/became Tenkalai Brahmins".

Vedas & Prabhandams:
According to these sources [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [[40]] Vadakalais accept the sanskrit vedas while thenkalais compiled a veda(4000 prabandhams) of their own. So, i'm not sure if the whole movement was necessarily Prabandham based. According to these sources it was the thenkalais who compiled the prabandhams while there's no mention on Nathamuni's hand in it, or any connection between vadakalais & prabandhams. I suggest that the disputed contents be deleted until consensus is reached. Even the sources in the main article(that are at odds with the sources mentioned here) that speak of nathamuni's hand in prabandhams, refer to vadakalai & thenkalai as sanskrit & tamil schools respectively. Except the Iyengar author "Srinivasachari" and tamilian authors like "Jagadeesan", the others(neutral parties like Schiffman, etc) have not associated the vadakalai subsect with prabandhams.

Pancharatra & Vaikhanasa:
[41], [42] - The Thenkalai vaishnavites follow what are called the vaikhanasa agamas while the Vadakalai base their life and worship on agamas, which they call pancharatra samhitas.

According to these sources [43], [44], [45] Vadakalais and their various monastic orders follow the pancharatra agama.

[46] - Vaikhanasa is a south indian tradition.

[47], [48] - The Pancharatra tradition is of Kashmirian origin.

Other:
I hope you all remember that the sources mentioned under common origins do not say that Ramanuja and Nathamuni were tamils. "All three men were born in present day's Tamil Nadu" could be a better alternative. This one here [49] says "Nathamuni was from a domiciled North Indian family of the chola region". However, as mentioned above, there are a new set of sources that say "4000 was compiled by thenkalais, while vadakalais adhere to the sanskrit vedas". Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 14:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Inputs for Hari7478's new sources

Since most sources mentioned by Hari7478 (and his contentions) were already dealt with earlier, am restricting these inputs to Hari7478's new sources.

1) Hari7478 says:
Iyengar community prior to Srivaishnavism:
[50] - "The Northerners (Vadagalais) as opposed to the Southerners(Thenkalais, earlier settled)...". The paragraph starts with a brief description on "occupation of South by people from the North possessing or professing Aryan culture...".

My input:
Hari7478 has selectively picked sentences. The source mentions "Those from the north (Badaganadu).." which Hari7478 has omitted. So for clarity, am reproducing the whole sentence from the book:
"The three thousand of Thillai (Thillai muvayarathar), The Six Thousand Niyogis (Aruvela Niyogis) of the East Coast; The Eight Thousand (Ashtasahasram) of the extreme south; The Northerners (Vadamas) as opposed to Southerners, i.e., those already settled; The Northern Northerners (Vada Desa Vadamal) as opposed to Northerners of the South, i.e., Northerners long settled in the southern country; The Northerners (Vadagalais) as opposed to the Southerners (Thenkalais, earlier settlers); Those from the north (Badaganadu) as opposed to those from the western country; The Desathas, and many other similar brahmanical divisions and subdivisions, all resident at present in southern India, indicate the very quiet manner in which the south has from time immemorial been occupied by Brahman settlers from the north or north-west".

Kindly note the book leaves in doubt "north" and "north-west" is north of which kingdoms in respect to each one's kingdom of origin, but indicates "those from the north (Badaganadu)..". The region Badaganadu (land of the Badagas) is "northern areas of former Mysore state" (please note all of the former Mysore state is in present day Karnataka in southern India). So the claim of "north" proves nothing here. The term "badaga" in kannada is "vaduga" in tamil, both of which mean "northerners" but the term "vaduga" is used to indicate telugu speakers as they are from "north" of tamil speaking regions, also bcoz vaduga indicates vadugavali. Back in time, the term "Vaduga" was used in many Bana inscriptions and has been interpreted variously by scholars (example: according to Somasundara Desigar, Vadugas may be either Kakatiyas or Western Chalukyas. According to Mahalingam Vadugas were Kakatiyas.) According to Epigraphica Indica, Vol 42, p.41, the term "Andhra Patah" (Andhratpathah-paschimatah-kshitihi, i.e, the country to the west of the road leading to Andhra) is differently recorded as vaduga-valli-merku and Vadugavaliyim-paduva respectively in the Tamil and Kannada inscriptions). It is therefore clear the term Vaduga-nadu or Badaga-nadu by themselves do not indicate any part of present-day northern India. If people came from Badaganadu, they wud be considered from the "north-west" (if from mysore) and from "north" (if from andhra) in tamil speaking regions.

2) Hari7478 says:
Thenkalai - I don't think all Thenkalais have common ancestors, or share a common origin. According to these sources - [51], [52], "certain southern school brahmins(Tengalai Srivaishnavas) can be identified as former sudras from their manners and customs".
My input:
One source is Rajat Dutta who quotes the said sentence ("..can be identified as former sudras from their manners and customs") straight out of two books, one by Burton Stein and another edited by Silverberg. The other source is Vijaya Ramaswamy; who either states the sentence verbatim from Stein or Silverberg's work; or cite her own opinion, the basis of which she has not mentioned or elaborated in her book. Since the original source is Stein and Silverburg, we will need to look up Stein and Silverburg's books. I shall do so soon and put in my inputs here.

3) Hari7478 says:
Pancharatra & Vaikhanasa:
[53], [54] - The Thenkalai vaishnavites follow what are called the vaikhanasa agamas while the Vadakalai base their life and worship on agamas, which they call pancharatra samhitas.
My input:
Not true. Just google for Vaikhanasa Vadakalai and you will get matrimony hits such as this. It seems, the Vaikhanasas (followers of Vaikhanasa Agama) have within them the Vadakalai and Thenkalai divisions. Just as the followers of Pancharatra do. But the Vaikhanasas are culturally different from the Vadakalai and Thenkalai of the Pancharatra Agama (example, Vaikhanasas do not perform panchasamskaram or samashrayanam which both, the Vadakalai and Thenkalai of Pancharatra do) . Unfortunately, there is very little material in English documenting the Vaikhanasa followers (this may help though). Since Vaikhanasas are located in Andhra, and wear the Vadakalai type of namam (or urdhva pundra), they are, as a whole socially, often mistaken to be Vadakalais. Both sources mentioned by Hari7478 are the "Journal of Dharma, Volume 3". Am not sure how much in depth research the source has done (at least from the initial preview appears not so complete). However, shall leave this to Sitush to handle. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Comment. I am watching this thread but not getting involved right now. I'll let Mayasutra dig up the bits that they want to find and then I may comment properly. However, I cannot help with any discussion regarding translations/meanings of words in Indian languages. I do agree that raising again the sources that were discussed not too long ago seems to be a bit pointless: no-one could clarify them then and nothing seems to have changed on that score. - Sitush (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Response:

• I simply left out sentences that were totally irrelevant to this page. I suppose the other user already knows it. It says "The Northerners (Vadamas) as opposed to Southerners, i.e., those already settled; The Northern Northerners (Vada Desa Vadamal) as opposed to Northerners of the South, i.e., Northerners long settled in the southern country; The Northerners (Vadagalais) as opposed to the Southerners (Thenkalais, earlier settlers); Those from the north (Badaganadu) as opposed to those from the western country; The Desathas, and many other similar brahmanical divisions and subdivisions, all resident at present in southern India, indicate the very quiet manner in which the south has from time immemorial been occupied by Brahman settlers from the north or north-west"." As you can see, each set of comparison is disjoint from the other. The sentence that starts with "Badagunadu" has nothing to do with the previous sentences. "Those from Badagunadu as opposed to those from the west" is independent of the previous sentences. Each of them seem to be portraying "differences between two subdivisions". Now, i don't understand why Mayasutra is relating the previous sentences with the one starting with "Badagunadu". Sitush, please go through the source and give your views.

• I find that Mayasutra has often been making this statement whenever the issue of North/South crops up: "North means that which is relatively North to the tamil region and not necessarily North India". I would like Sitush to review all the sources mentioned in my first message under this discussion, and btw none of them were dealt with.
  

• This point is a continuation of the previous: Now, Mayasutra has selectively left out a few important lines from the same page. The paragraph starts with "This rapid summary of the occupation of the south by people from the North possessing or professing Aryan culture, shows its essentially peaceful character". Please look back into Mayasutra's message, especially into the last line that he has mentioned from this page of the source here [55]. Now it continues as "These brahmins, the sole repositories, as i've remarked of what passed for Aryan culture in India doubtless followed their own culture and religious institutions......differentiating them as a class from the resident local racial types - dravidians and pre-dravidians may be stated". Sitush, i would like you to go through the entire page of the mentioned source and i'm sure you would understand what the author has meant.
  

• I don't understand when the sources 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49(as mentioned by me in my previous response) were "dealt with", as Mayasutra says. I don't want to point fingers but i would just like to clarify that these sources were not dealt with and there was no real counter arguement except for some desperate opposition from Mayasutra. The six sources that speak of "Thenkalais being the ones who compiled the 4000 verses" were simply opposed by Mayasutra in the past but no one discussed it. They are equally good sources as the ones that exist in the main article(which are at odds with them). The ones in the main article say "Nathamuni compiled them and that the movement was born out of this", while these ones say "thenkalais compiled them while vadakalais are sanskritic". No one turned them down as "unreliable compared to the ones in the main artilce". It was just Mayasutra who opposed it. If at all i find him trying to play down or suppress "facts supported by these sources" by saying "dealt with earlier" when they weren't really dealt with, i guess this already calls for mediation. See below:
  

• The reason why I'm posting this comment is to prove that this issue was not dealt with and that it's still pending. Otherwise i don't intend to bring up Mayasutra's previous responses here. This is how Mayasutra opposed them - "(1) Monier Williams is visible to me while the rest aren't.............. (2) Monier Williams did not research into prabandhams..... (3) According to you(and not according to Monier Williams) the vadakalais have nothing to do with prabandhams................ (4) Prove that thenkalais do not perform homas in sanskrit at home............. (5) What you claim and what Monier Williams supposedly says cannot serve as a ground to discredit Nathamuni, from the effort of collecting prabandhams, to which he dedicated his lifetime............. (6) As for Pancharatra, there are 2 views of origin, one is south india and another kashmir. Pancharatra is a compilation of more than 200 texts. The content will go into Pancharatra article.......(7) Sitush, please take a call on this. Hari7478 claims Nathamuni did not compile the 4000 prabandhams, the Thenkalais did. His sources are Monier Williams, Subodh Kapoor and few others. Except Monier Williams' book, am not able to view other sources -- no idea why" --------- This was Mayasutra's response to those sources that were supposedly "dealt with". Evident POV comments and no credibe counter-arguement. Sitush, they weren't dealt with, and they're equally reliable as the ones in the main article, that are contradicting them. There was no discussion as to why "these sources should be discredited". So, i'm not going to tolerate such obvious dodgy responses from Mayasutra such as "already been dealt with", and i may have to take it up seriously as mentioned above. If he thinks "users will eventually forget an unresolved issue overtime because the counter-responses were marred by such long walls of texts merely opposing these sources(seems like WP:IDONTLIKEIT), and that it's been quite some time since that discussion so users will forget what really happened", then he's wrong. Sitush please try to go back into that discussion. There was no strong counter-arguement from Mayasutra and the issue was not resolved nor even opposed by reasonable counter-claims.

• The six sources(44-49) are as much reliable as the ones contradicting it in the main article. That being the case, a proper approach would be to delete all contradicting contents(probably the section titled "common origins") until a consensus regarding "which version/set of sources are to be kept" is reached.

• To Sitush: If nothing could be clarified regarding the "3 men were born in present day's Tamil Nadu" vs "All three men were tamils(your version)" issue, then i suggest we remove it till we arrive upon a conclusion. We know that the current version(the 3 being "tamils") is not directly supported by the sources. But i'm not really interested in Nathamuni's North Indian origin as of now because of the six sources(44-49) mentioned above which counters "Nathamuni's compilation of prabandham" theory by the "thenkalais compiled prabandham while vadakalais adhere to sanskrit" theory. I request you to handle the Pancharatra/Vaikhanasa issue as well. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Reply

Sitush, I feel it is better if you review the sources, read thru the contested pages and give your views. Otherwise, am pretty sure Hari7478 will not accept. From my part wud like to say this:

* Following so-called Aryan culture does not mean Aryan ethnicity. As for manners and customs (which supposedly indicate one as a shudra), we must take into consideration all groupings of Iyers and Iyengars follow some or the other custom of dravidian speakers; including worship of local grama deities (village gods) and kuladeivams (clan deity). The kuladeivams of iyers and iyengars are located in south india, not north. Since iyers and iyengars present a mixed culture of aryan (brahmanical fire sacrifices) as well as non-vedic agama culture (idol worship), they are culturally representatives of both vedic and non-vedic cultures. Either they are native priests elevated into the indo-aryan cultural fold, Or they are priests of indo-aryan culture who nativized themselves into the local culture of dravidian speakers. There are some indicators of the former (ie, native priests elevated into indo-aryan culture); whilst popular (oral) tradition supposes the latter (ie, priests of indo-aryan culture nativizing into local culture). As a whole, either ways, it is not possible to represent them as people of aryan culture alone.

* Monier Williams indeed did not research into Tamil Divya Prabandhams. The Vadakalai of Pancharatra follow Tamil Prabandhams as much as the Thenkalais. Nammalvar is in the spiritual lineage (guru parampara) of both Vadakalai and Thenkalai. Incidentally, the Tamil prabandhams are recited in Vaikhanasa temples also (including Thirumala). Since Vaikhanasa agama and Pancharatra agama are based on idol worship, it is left to historians in future to research into their claims of being vedic. As far as the Vaikhanasas go, there is very little research on vaikhAnasa-grhyasUtra and vaikhAnasa-dharmasUtra. The latter involves the vaikhAnasa-smArta-sUtra which incidentally was composed after 4th century CE (Ref, p.590). But the Vaikhanasas do have some vedic association, such as references to vikhAnasa seers in rigveda-samhita, tAndya-brAhmana, jaiminIya-brAhmana and taittiriyAranyaka. In the case of Pancharatras, the origin appears to be popular and non-vedic; with the earliest link dating to the Narayaniya of Mahabharat. However, Otto Schrader says the Pancharatra possibly existed before the Narayaniyam of Mahabharat.

In view of the above, imo, it is not appropriate to represent the article (or specifically Vadakalais, as Hari7478 wishes to do) with aryan or indo-aryan culture alone. Since Hari7478 is contesting the role of Nathamuni in compiling the Tamil Prabandhams, I hope you will go thru his sources on that too, and put in your views here. The Tamil prabandhams, as per Srivaishnava tradition were compiled by Nathamuni, and thus existed before the time of Ramanuja; in effect, they existed before the schism in Ramanuja Sampradayam which led to the formation of Vadakalai and Thenkalai communities. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

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