Talk:Japanese sword

Some interesting issues with e.g. daito and o-katana

I've been trying to understand the different terminology we see for Japanese swords, and to an extent, I think some of what people treat as gospel seems to derive from information being translated into a different language and, perhaps more importantly, a different alphabet.

Take for example, we have the three size divisions: tanto, shoto and daito. And within those divisions, adding ko- or o- as a prefic tells us if a specific type of sword is at the small or big end of it's size range. Ok, everything makes sense so far.

So a wakizashi is in the shoto size range. A big wakizashi is an o-wakizashi, but it's still a shoto and smaller than a katana. A small wakizashi is a ko-wakizashi, but it's still bigger than a tanto.

This falls down slightly when applied to the tachi. A standard tachi is a daito. A ko-dachi is not a small but still daito-sized tachi, it is a shoto instead. But this is not my main concern (and likely not really relevant, as I get the impression that by the tachi family of sword predates the tanto/shoto/daito classification system, and that by the time the system was used, most samurai were using katana, not tachi).

My bigger concern, or perhaps curiosity, is with how this affects the katana. A katana is a daito. The shoto equivalent of this style of sword is the wakizashi. Ok, all fine. A big katana is an o-katana, and that is still a daito. A small katana is a ko-katana, which is also still a daito.

This makes perfect sense when we use these different terms for different types of sword and sword classification when the words are borrowed from Japanese into English, and written using the Roman alphabet. They would also make sense in Japanese if written in hiragana (I think that's the right word). However, when written in kanji (Chinese characters), it is a bit more confusing.

The kanji for daito are: 大刀 The kanji for shoto are: 小刀 Daito and shoto are both the onyomi or Sino-Japanese readings of these kanji (i.e. the sounds are basically taken from the Chinese).

The kanji for katana is: 刀 The kanji for o-katana are: 大刀 The kanji for ko-katana are: 小刀 These are the kunyomi or Japanese readings of the kanji.

And, oh, these different terms, which apparently have very different meanings when applied with specificity, share the same kanji.

A short katana, a ko-katana (小刀) is still long enough to be a daito (大刀). A 小刀 is a 大刀. If I put both of those into onyomi, in the Roman alphabet: a shoto is a daito. Translated into English, a small sword is a big sword.

Perhaps I have completely misunderstood this (I do not speak Japanese afterall, this is largely just what I understand from the different related wiki articles), but it does seem to be a very confusing situation, and it must take a great degree of understanding and subtlety to understand what is meant by the kanji when actually written in a sentence.

On a separate but related note, it appears that, alongside odachi, tachi is frequently used to indicate swords in general, especially within the koryu martial arts, even when the sword physically being used is what most of us would recognise to be a katana. :) 109.152.222.175 (talk) 18:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

There is also the hantachi. A cross read between a tachi and a katana. Basically a katana with tachi fittings. Papillon36 (talk) 05:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

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Hantachi

There is also an intermediate sword between a tachi and katana called an hantachi. This is basically a katana with tachi fittings. However many longer katana are actually intentionally made hantachi and are not considered katana. Papillon36 (talk) 16:45, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't that rather be handachi, with a d, due to the phonological assimilation rules of the Japanese language? Kennin (talk) 10:32, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Blade? Or sword?

I'm afraid there's quite a bit to correct in the article.

刃 (on yomi: nin/jin; kun yomi: ha/yaiba/ki(ru); nanori: chi/to) is blade.

刀 means curved sword and definitely not blade. For Japanese all single-edged, curved sword-like weapons, no matter the size, are considered to be 刀. The kanji 刃 for blade shows the meaning rather clear. 刀 with the left stoke "cut" in two, signalising that it's just a part of the sword, but the most important one: the blade. Kennin (talk) 12:25, 1 July 2021 (EST)

Add info about Iron quality

There should be a heading about the iron quality. Because some amateur historians say that iron in Japan was "bad", but it was lousy at best and the quality varied per region. The swordsmiths used techniques to compensate and improve the blade quality. -Artanisen (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)