Talk:Carleton College

Area

This page says the campus is 1040 acres, of which 880 is the arboretum (which would mean that the main campus is 160 acres, not 200); while the Arboretum page says the arb has 800 acres. Surely someone at the college can reconcile these differences. Kablammo (talk) 04:46, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture

I'm curious to know why 3 of the points from the popular culture section have been removed. One documented the films in which the campus has appeared (D3: The Mighty Ducks, and an upcoming indie film, Tuscaloosa). This had multiple references. Another was a reference in the major Hollywood production, Whiplash (also cited). And finally, Carleton is reference in a music video by Lizzo. Do these not qualify as references in popular culture or is there some other reason they were removed?Tell-it-slant (talk) 15:44, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Trivia doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. ElKevbo (talk) 16:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

More trivia

This issue has arisen again over two years later. This time, the trivia includes (a) a game created by college alumni, (b) a film that was "partially filmed" at the college, and (c) a fictional alumnus.

"The legendary educational video game series The Oregon Trail was initially created by three Carleton students."

The cited source doesn't appear to make a substantive link between the college and the game. If there is a link, it's certainly explained in the text in this article. Are we expected to include every invention and accomplishment by every alumnus?

"The 1996 film D3: The Mighty Ducks was partially filmed on Carleton's campus."

Why would we include this trivia in the article? What are readers supposed to learn from it aside from the minor fact that one film was "partially" filmed at the college? Without any context, that disconnected fact is de facto trivia.

"Ben Wyatt, a character from NBC's Parks and Recreation, graduated from Carleton with a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science."

Not only is this clearly trivia that tells readers nothing about the college, it's also unsourced. We need something much more substantive - why the writers included this connection, what the connection was supposed to communicate, etc. - for this to be worth including in an encyclopedia article. And it would probably still not be worth including without further similar examples.

I strongly encourage editors who are interested in this section to participate in this discussion. ElKevbo (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Hello - I agree that Mighty Ducks 3 being filmed on campus probably does not make the cut for "In Popular Culture", but I'm struggling to understand how the other two don't.

In the case of the Oregon Trail, the game was created by currently enrolled students who were studying to become teachers. This is directly supported by the cited source: "Heinemann, Rawitsch, and Dillenberger were student teachers finishing their degrees at Carleton College and living together in the sparsely furnished apartment", as well as other sources that discuss the game's origins. No one is suggesting that this section should include every invention and accomplishment by every alumnus (not that it even comes close to this standard currently), but the fact that the game was invented by students who were enrolled at the college during the game's inception, that the game's creation was directly tied to their career goals, and is one of the most successful and well-known educational video games of all-time warrants inclusion.

Here is a source that supports that Ben Wyatt attended Carleton. His own Wikipedia page supports that he grew up in rural Minnesota and majored in political science at Carleton, directly related to his future career as a state auditor which then leads to his appearance on the show. I don't see why further similar examples would need to be provided - the notability of the reference is that it was incredibly rare for a character on a major NBC sitcom to have attended Carleton, a small, rural liberal arts college that has virtually no broader pop culture recognition or significance.

IncorruptibleWalrus (talk) 18:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

The connection between Oregon Trail and the college is very weak. I was hoping that the source would describe the program being developed as part of one of their classes, with assistance or input from someone at the college, or otherwise connected to the college. But there doesn't seem to be a connection to the college other than the fact that people who developed the game happened to be enrolled at the college.

We really need some independent sources for material in the article, especially for facts that are not the common ones required in articles e.g., enrollment, location. A one paragraph new item from the college bragging about this very obscure and unexplained connection is nowhere near strong enough (or, frankly, interesting enough) to warrant inclusion of this disconnected and unexplained fact in the article. You need much better sourcing and context. Have the show's writers or the showrunner ever talked about this? Has the actor ever been asked about it? ElKevbo (talk) 19:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

The game was developed by multiple Carleton students, fulfilling a degree requirement to student teach, working together to develop the game's concept and program the initial version. Here is another source that corroborates this.

″In 1971 Don Rawitsch was a 21-year-old college student majoring in history at Carleton College in Minnesota. At the same time, he was taking the required education coursework to become certified as a teacher. One requirement of the program was to spend time as a student teacher. Don’s assignment was to teach American history at a local junior high school. As he looked over the upcoming lesson schedule, he saw that it included a unit on America’s westward expansion in the 1800s. As he thought about creative ways to teach this unit and engage his students, he came up with the idea of a board game based on the Oregon Trail.

Don shared an apartment in Minneapolis with two other Carleton student teachers, Bill Heinemann and Paul Dillenberger – two math majors who also taught in the city schools. Both Bill and Paul had learned how to program computers using BASIC, so when the three of them began to discuss Don’s concept for a board game, they soon decided to create a computer-based game instead.″

If the game had originated from alumni or even a Carleton student creating it on their own time, independent from any degree requirements, I might understand the argument that the linkage between the college and the game's origins are weak, but that isn't the case - the game's origins are directly a result of Carleton and collaboration between Carleton students, it's not some just some mere coincidence and the game's page itself references this fact.

As for the Parks and Recreation reference - you asked for the claim to be sourced and I provided one. The fact that Ben attended Carleton is not an integral plot line to the show as the show is set years after he attended college, so I don't think it's realistic to expect writers or the actor himself to have commented on it or for it to have gained widespread media attention. If the reference is notable enough to be on his Wikipedia page, I struggle to see why it doesn't merit mention here.

In general, to echo comments I made earlier, this section seems to be held to an absurdly high bar of notability, particularly for a small, rural liberal arts college with very little pop culture relevance, which is probably why it only has one uncontroversial entry citing a little-known science fiction novel. The Oregon Trail (at least in previous eras) and Parks and Recreation both have significant pop culture significance, and to suggest that sourced and direct Carleton links to both don't merit acknowledgement here frankly seems a bit inane.

IncorruptibleWalrus (talk) 21:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

It may be helpful to remember that this is an encyclopedia article about the college; it's not a collection of every fact or published source that mentions the college, but the essential information that readers must know to understand this subject. So one critical question to ask about material you think should be included in this - or any other - section of the article is "What will readers learn about the college from this new information?" And please note that the question is not "What do I, a Wikipedia editor, think that readers will learn about the college?" but what the published, reliable sources say. That is my objection to the addition of the fact about the fictional alumnus; just having a fictional alumnus says nothing about the college without significant, additional context. And just having one fictional alumnus is unlikely to say anything significant about any college or university.

The information you've written above about the game is exactly the kind of important information that readers need to understand why the game is so significant that it merits inclusion in an encyclopedia article about this college; please add some of it - supported by cited, sources, of course! - to the article. ElKevbo (talk) 22:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

References

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Two-person class?

The college graduated its first college class in 1874, James J. Dow and Myra A. Brown, who married each other later that year.

The class was two people? That's a mighty small class... Or is it a typo? – AndyFielding (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The sourcing is reasonable and this doesn't give me any concerns. Many institutions founded before the 20th century began as very small institutions. It's also important to remember that prior to the 20th century graduating with a degree was not the goal for all students; for some (sometimes many) students, simply enrolling for a few semesters or years was sufficient to meet their purposes. Others simply ran out of money or had to return to the families to support them. ElKevbo (talk) 23:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)