Important notice: Prior consensus has decided that Taiwan is to be referred to as a country.
Changes to the article to refer to Taiwan as a state, island, province of China, or other definition are not permitted and may be reverted. See here for the 2020 RfC in which editors reached this decision.
Please do not add Simplified characters and tongyong pinyin to the country infobox.
Please refrain from adding "(Taiwan)" all over the article as this article includes substantial information about the Republic of China prior to the Taiwan post-war era.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about "country" vs "state", and "Taiwan" vs "Republic of China", and "Taiwan is a part of China", and "Taiwan is a province of China". Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting on that topic.
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. Ifconsensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
Determine whether Taiwan should be called a 'country' or 'state'
Complete: Consensus has been reached for Taiwan to be called a 'country'. The consensus was 33 for country, 10 for state, and 5 for some variation of state. Here is the page on which consensus was reached
Add a short section about the culture and the geography of the ROC territories (with links to the main articles)
Review alt text of images
Should the role and influence of Sun Yat-sen be introduced in the History section?
Taiwan was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Keoni Everington (2020-06-15). "Wikipedia finally designates Taiwan as 'country'". Taiwan News. Retrieved 2020-06-16. In a request for comments (RFC) page created to debate the proper status of Taiwan in its Wikipedia entry, editors in May fiercely debated the merits of referring to Taiwan as a "state" or a "country."
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Taiwan was copied or moved into Sports in Taiwan with this edit on 22 October 2019. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:
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Administrative problem: first level divisions[edit]
My edit of Douliu was removed and reverted by @Canterbury Tail as "disruptive". I added Taiwan Province as a first level followed by Yunlin County as a second level division. We have a big problem regarding ROC administrative divisions in the free area. So how about this: I'm opening up an RfC if we can propose two options in regards to the ROC subdivisions.
A. First level:
Provinces: Taiwan, Fuchien
Special Municipalities: Taipei, Kaohsiung, New Taipei, Tainan, Taichung, Taoyuan
Special Municipalities: Taipei, Kaohsiung, New Taipei, Tainan, Taichung, Taoyuan
While Google Maps and some maps online treat option B as main subdivisions, do you guys want the Province on the Infobox in its second, third and fourth level subdivision articles?
It's worth noting that Macau SAR got rid of parish governments in 2001 while Lithuania abolished county governments in 2010. The ROC kept Taiwan and Fuchien provinces for administrative and statistical purposes within the government especially the ROC Ministry of Interior still uses it. Getting rid of provinces from the ROC administrative structure would provoke the PRC.
I am inclined to oppose any framework that uses [[Taiwan|Republic of China]], since it clearly goes against the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME. I’m also inclined to oppose including Taiwan Province in the infobox just because it has no administrative function practically. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taiwan Province only covers Penghu, 10 counties on Taiwan island, but it could be included with the exception of six municipalities. However, Fujian can stay for Kinmen and Matsu. Silence of Lambs (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Add Republic of China (Taiwan) as an official name in the first sentence.
According to Taiwan government website, Republic of China (Taiwan) is the official name.
https://www.taiwan.gov.tw/about.phpJDCohan (talk) 03:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Grammar fix in image caption in section "Relations with the PRC"; "Ma–Xi meeting was the first" should be "The Ma–Xi meeting..." 104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taiwan is an island country. It's even listed on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_island_countries as such, and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan begins with "Taiwan is an island country in East Asia." Other articles like that of Japan or Madagascar also begin with "X is an island country in Y / off the coast of Z..."). It's not strictly necessary but how come this article doesn't begin with "Taiwan is an island country"?
This is pretty much an edit request (please edit the article with this suggestion if it's valid) but I'm more interested if there's a reason why it's not already since I'd assume it to be obvious. Sorry if it's been brought up before, I did check the recent archives of this talk page but couldn't find anything. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This request does still call it a country. Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If RfC participants thought island country was permissible, they likely would've specified. Very few did so. Remsense诉 16:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be an assumption, not covered by the close which only covers the issue of county, which this does not change. I can only go by myself, but I try to answer the RFC question asked, not any ancillary matters (so if asked whether we call dogs animals I would say yes, not yes but also call them 4-legged) Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only an IP and I'm just repeating Slatersteven's point but I would disagree, the debate was over whether Taiwan should be referred to on Wikipedia as a "country" or as a (sovereign) "state", not over the geography. If Hungary's status was disputed for some reason you wouldn't bother specifying in an RFC that you believe it as a "landlocked country" in place of a "landlocked state", right? You would just comment "I think Hungary should be called a country", I don't think the fact that most didn't specify in the 2020 RFC is worth much. Adding "island" does nothing to dispute Taiwan's political status. Ultimately this is only a minor and not-necessary change and it's up to actual editors like you though. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean we can but in general it can get a bit wordy... And there is wide variation across the project, for example we use just country for Indonesia and for the Phillipines we use "archipelagic country" but with a link to archipelagic state. Personally I would rather that they all just say country in the first sentence of the lead and do geography elsewhere in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it doesn't matter much, the lead is clear it is made of islands, the inclusion of it as an adjective or not is just flavouring. CMD (talk) 02:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it is just flavoring, but I think “island country” would be quite descriptive and helpful both in the first sentence and in the short description. I think we all agree this would still satisfy the 2020 RfC consensus to use “country.” Butterdiplomat (talk) 03:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly agree it doesn't affect the RfC result either way. CMD (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favour of the change, but some people have objected to it in the past. As I recall, the arguments were (a) it's not just one island, but several little ones too, and (b) claims to the mainland. Of course the first is true of all the other island countries too. Kanguole 12:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just add the link.. Island country ....not a big deal and leads readers to info like "a country whose primary territory consists of one or more islands or parts of islands. " and a map that talks about this small country. Moxy🍁 12:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think claims to the “mainland” (a historical and partisan claim) should dictate how the country is factually described. This description also does not prevent the historical ROC claims from being included elsewhere in the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying Taiwan ROC is an island country is different from saying ROC controls the island. Making them equivalent sounds too much like a political position about its territory. I don't think the first sentence of this article should implicitly promote one. Leave "island" out. The third and fourth sentences already describe the situation as-is. "The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres (13,974 square miles). The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa..." CurryCity (talk) 13:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see the discrepancy or political position. The ROC is (as it stands and as described, like you say, in the next few sentences) an island country. It is a country (which is a political statement deemed accurate from various RfC processes), and it is made of islands. What do you feel is the position the statement implicitly promotes? Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seconding Butterdiplomat, need some explanation of what you mean by this. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article already begins with calling Taiwan a country, not a state or just land controlled by the ROC. That's a political position of its territory already. Island countries aren't any more or less legitimate than continental countries, why would calling Taiwan an island country be changing anything? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 17:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the major problem with disagreement on marking the ROC as island country because quite amount of people consider the concept of Taiwan and the Republic of China are not exactly the same, despite being largely overlapping in their current territorial extent. Many people especially those pro-KMT advocate the idea that the ROC still owns sovereignty over Mainland China or Mongolia in constitutional terms. Actually this page once had a discussion not long ago regarding the constitutional claims made by the ROC (see Talk:Taiwan/Archive 39#"Current ROC territorial claims" vs. "historical ROC territorial claims"), the country template show a map [1] depicting a “historical territorial claim” without any reliable supporting sources. Some editors have expressed their concerns about the constitutional terms which did not exactly apply any specific territorial extent to the ROC sovereign claims. Therefore, in practice we may call it an island country, but somehow the wikipedia decided to take a neutral ground on that definition, which was “country” as a consensus in common, but we do not give any explicit definition for the ROC being a state claiming to be a country that beyond the islands of Taiwan or a country limited to these islands. Sheherherhers (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not exactly what I mean… What I’m saying is that the Wikipedia allows somewhat ambiguous interpretation in controversial Topics such as Taiwan. It’s not necessary to address a descriptive term as “island country” or “continental country” upon any national-related articles when an inclusive term as simple as “country” that can be accepted by general consensus. So we do not have to make exclusive use for one definition to prevail one another and creating more unnecessary issues. The claims of the ROC is also a political myth that sided by certain group which is just represented as one-side political stance, using country instead of island country does not mean to endorse that position. If the general consensus had a decision to stick to “country”, the Wikipedia would remain a neutral ground on that basis. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I also looked into the topic of List of island countries. The content has explained very clear that the reason for the inclusion of Taiwan, as Taiwan being “a state has "de facto" control over territories entirely on the islands”. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think this is the problem, exactly. States and countries are never exactly the same thing—one is an abstraction describing a self-contained administrative, legal, and general political structure, and the other is a greater abstraction encompassing additional, more transcendent elements, e.g. of identity. In English parlance, people feel they are countrymen, they might say they identify with a country—but it would be a much narrower, more cynical statement to say that one is loyal to a state. COMMONNAME aside, this is why it makes sense to call Taiwan a country—because it is one, regardless of the legal fiction of any state.
That said, I don't agree with your formulation because the article isn't about the Republic of China as such, it's about the country Taiwan. There's a hidden conflation there like there is with every article about a modern state because that's what people expect—the article will include the entire political history of the region where the state now is, etc—but it's still a distinction to make.
I'm not personally opposed to calling Taiwan an island country, I just think it's better to be as parsimonious as possible with the rules for pragmatic purposes, given how many gray-faith and bad-faith editors constantly land on this talk page. Remsense诉 10:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth the discussion. Adding “island country” to the short description and the first sentence brings the page in alignment with other island countries, like Japan or Sri Lanka or New Zealand. For the same reason the term is used on the pages, it would make sense here. As a very minor point, “island country” distinguishes Taiwan from Thailand (unfortunately still often confused today) more quickly in the search results.
Just to play devil’s advocate to your point about gray- and bad-faith editors - what exactly do you think their argument would be? Since the term doesn’t change the substance of the lede, the fact that it may attract bad-faith comments makes it worth the clarification IMO. It feels like there is a reason bad-faith editors would want to avoid the clarification, and we shouldn’t cave to their agenda. Butterdiplomat (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are fair points. Pencil me in as neutral. Remsense诉 12:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are different theories as to the actual territory of ROC and whether that has changed. Wikipedia should not pick and side with one. So the first sentence should not go into the territory of Republic of China, since parts of ROC and Taiwan have been combined into this article.
Remsense touched on the difference between state in the political sense and country in the general sense, political or not. Equating ROC which is the name of a state with island country is not supported, although you may be able to argue that ROC controls the island country of Taiwan including minor islands.
It's 2024. Not that many English speakers are still confused about Thailand and Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 04:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lede already defines Taiwan as a country, which was the RfC consensus. To Remsense’s point, there is a distinction between country and state, and the article is already about the country. So, it is consistent to then extend the description to say island country.
The article is also about the modern state of the ROC, the actual territory of which is not really in dispute (at least the vast majority of it). The only dispute is one of official recognition, which is a matter of political status and also doesn’t have any bearing on the description of the island country in any case. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Equating the modern ROC with island country is just one of the different competing theories. Its territory is disputed politically within Taiwan, by China, and internationally. Wikipedia should document disagreements, not advance one interpretation in the first sentence of a major article. CurryCity (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People have niche theories about plenty of topics, and we weigh them accordingly per WP:DUEWEIGHT. Remsense诉 13:40, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the text in Britannica, the first difference I notice between Thailand and Taiwan is that Thailand is a country[2] but Taiwan is not[3]. It's an island, but the ROC is not an island. It's the entity that controls Taiwan etc. CurryCity (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the 2020 RfC, as the exhaustive survey of RS has been done there already. Again, we're specifically talking about whether "island country" is acceptable in addition to "country". The other dimensions you seem to have a hankering to discuss have already been deliberated and decided on. Remsense诉 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And Britannica has not surveyed "reliable sources" better than a few Wikipedia editors did back in 2020? CurryCity (talk) 14:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How am I supposed to know that? It's pretty daft to insinuate our editorial process hinges on what we assume another encyclopedia's editorial process probably is.Remsense诉 14:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say, using Britannia as well-reliable source is not definite. First, Taiwan in this article or people nowadays referred to, is not just focusing on one island obviously. The context explained it quite well, “The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres. The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa, has an area of 35,808 square kilometres”. It’s quite clear that the concept of Taiwan here we input referring to the governing authority that currently controlled 168 island with island of Taiwan as major base. And I think for the same article in Britannia which does mean the same for the actual-ruled authority rather than focusing on one major island only. Just like Great Britain said by peoples, frequently referred to the whole UK rather than an island. Therefore, by saying that the definition of Taiwan is just “an island” apparently wrong, even for Britannia. Neither of Wikipedia nor Britannia treat it as a mere geographical topic in regards to Taiwan.
Besides, Britannia did sort Taiwan in their category for “countries of the world”, you can look into the same page again and check the headings. Sheherherhers (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you trying to re-litigate the previous discussion about whether Taiwan is a country or not? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I haven't seen any source saying the ROC is an island country. CurryCity (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is some confusion here. The name “Taiwan” can refer to an island, but it actually refers to a country in this article. The island country that we are referring to clearly applies to the latter. Adding “island” as a descriptor does not contradict the current formulation, and it is clearly a helpful descriptor if even frequent editors of the page don’t see this as an obvious fact (i.e., it is not redundant). Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just so I can properly understand your argument, are you opposed only to (1) stating “island country” in the first sentence or short description, (2) stating it anywhere in the lede, (3) implying it at all, or (4) stating Taiwan is a country at all? Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]