Talk:Kentucky Derby

Invite to join the Derby 150 article development and backlog drive (relevant article)

WikiProject Louisville		Derby 150 article development and backlog drive
		Help WikiProject Louisville commemorate and celebrate the 150th Kentucky Derby! Join our article development and backlog drive taking place during the period of the Kentucky Derby Festival, April 20 – May 5, 2024. The purpose of this drive is to improve a corner of the Wikipedia related to and timed for this special rare anniversary, as a part of improving the whole encyclopedia. Barnstars will be awarded for participation. Tag your edit summary with [[WP:DERBY150]], both to advertise the event and tally edits for milestone tracking and a possible leaderboard. Interested in helping out? Sign up here. (We're also looking for technical assistance.) Join our festive international Derby party! Mint julep, anyone?

Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Lead development

I am confused by the line in the lead, "The race is run by three-year-old Thoroughbreds at a distance of 1 +1⁄4 miles (10 furlongs; 2,012 metres), the first time horses in the field race that distance." I don't know enough about this statement to make a change, but it looks like they are saying no 3 year old would have ever raced a distance of 1 1/4 miles. How would you guarantee that? StarHOG (Talk) 00:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I have reviewed this. During a rework of the lead in May 2023, that clause was added but no citation was given for it. Without support from a reliable source, I have removed it. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Dates

The horseraces infobox that's used on this article should include spaces for the last race and the upcoming race, like they have for seasons in the sports league infobox. And it should include spaces for the dates of the last race and the upcoming race, like they have in the holiday infobox. I suggest we put the dates with the links to the articles for the last and upcoming races. I'd make that change myself, but it's extended-confirmed-protected. - Burner89751654 (talk) 18:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This has crossed my mind as well. I have endorsed your idea over there, and if there are no objections there , I have the access and knowledge to implement the ideas. Let's see if there are any other responses for a while and then I'll proceed. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Most Exciting Two Minutes or Fastest Two Minutes?

There is reference to both of these titles in the introduction.

It seems the references stem from legendary sportswriter Grantland Rice's description of the event: "In 1935, legendary Tennessee-born sports writer Grantland Rice described the race. "Those two minutes and a second or so of derby running carry more emotional thrills, per second, than anything sport can show," he said. That phrase has since been shortened to describe the Kentucky Derby as 'the most exciting two minutes in sports.'" (trying to find original source)

I think "Fastest Two Minutes" references may just be incorrect nods to the "Most Exciting Two Minutes." "Fasest.." to me doesn't make sense, since 120 seconds is 120 seconds. The quote is meant to capture how much action is packed into that small window, I think. I'd like to consider removing the latter reference, or at least trying to better source its provenance. Sawitontwitter (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oldest track?

Most everybody knows that's Saratoga, which opened in 1863 at the Oklahoma Track and 1864 for the current grandstand track. It has never moved since 1864 and is a thoroughbred track, unlike some tracks in the US which are even older but which are harness tracks. Making the statement that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest track or oldest sporting event is just so far from true, it's embarrassing to find it here. MorganDWright (talk) 05:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to talk. What is in the article does not say that the Derby is the oldest track (Churchill Downs) or oldest sporting event. What it is talking about is that it's the oldest continuous, that it has been run every year without fail (only a couple postponements) since 1875. Unless you can contest this with a countervailing source, I see nothing to be embarrassed about. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Continuous? Saratoga grandstand track was built in 1864 and has been there continuously since. It was never torn down or rebuilt or moved, or mothballed, and even in the very few years the track didn't open for the summer, the Saratoga stakes races were held. Usually in Belmont. That makes them continuous. The Travers Stakes have been held since 1864, during WWII they were held in Belmont. This June, the Belmont stakes are being held in Saratoga because they're working on the track at Belmont! Same with 1896. Does that mean Belmont track is not continuous? We know it doesn't mean the Belmont Stakes is not continuous. Your article says the Kentucky Derby is the oldest event, but being continuous doesn't mean oldest. You're saying an event that started in 1875 is OLDER than one starting in 1864 just because it was run in Belmont during the 3 or 4 times it wasn't held in Saratoga, that means it's not continuous so that moved the original date away from 1864? Your article is simply wrong. And then you say the Kentucky Derby was cancelled but rescheduled the same year? But not the same month or week? Since when is "the same year" some sort of magical metric of making something "continuous". If it was cancelled and rescheduled, even the same year, then it is NOT continuous. Saratoga is closed every winter, that surely makes it "not continuous". It's closed at night, too. It's closed right now! The claim that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest, and then tossing in a lot of convoluted adjuncts that make it older than another track that actually IS older, and another stakes event, that is also older, or if you say something like it's the "oldest track that was never closed for WWII or run at another track for a world war, or cancelled, but if it was cancelled was rescheduled during the same calendar year but not month, week etc. etc," is just ridiculous. Saratoga is the oldest thoroughbred track and Travers Stakes is older than the Kentucky Derby, PERIOD. MorganDWright (talk) 11:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

As this subject and similar races are annual events, 'continuous' would mean that their race is held every year. Also, neither anyone or this article are saying that Churchill Downs is the oldest thoroughbred track and that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest race, period. What the article says is something different, and that something different is sourced. Subjects often have particular superlatives, but said superlatives are not meant to subtract from any other subject's superlatives. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I also meant to note that in Travers Stakes, it says "The race was not run in 1896, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1911, and 1912." Alternatively, the Kentucky Derby has run for 150 years straight. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 09:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that in the Saratoga Race Course article, it says "The course was closed in 1896 due to increasing competition among thoroughbred tracks, making the meet at Saratoga not viable that season. Anti-gambling legislation, which had passed in New York, resulted in a cessation in all thoroughbred racing in that state during 1911 and 1912." According to that, it missed 3 years. The Kentucky Derby missed zero years. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I just found out, Belmont Stakes, Alabama Stakes, and Preakness Stakes are all older than the Kentucky Derby, but none claim to be the oldest this, that or the other thing, to weasel their way into stolen glory like your article does. The glory should go to Saratoga. MorganDWright (talk) 11:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Taking Belmont Stakes as an example, all it took was a google search to turn up "Belmont Park has hosted the annual horse racing event dating back to 1905. There was also a five-year stretch of races at the Aqueduct, but the Belmont Stakes has been held at Belmont Park every year since 1968." There is no "stolen glory" here. Just a fact backed up by a source. Again, if you have countervailing sources that shows any horse race besting any of the superlatives in the article, I'd be happy to take a look at them. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

But the fact being backed up is a nonsense fact with fine print. "Kentucky Derby is the oldest sporting event of any kind in the USA ˢᵒ ˡᵒⁿᵍ ᵃˢ ʸᵒᵘ ᵈᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᶦⁿᶜˡᵘᵈᵉ ᵒˡᵈᵉʳ ˢᵖᵒʳᵗᶦⁿᵍ ᵉᵛᵉⁿᵗˢ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ʷᵉʳᵉ ˢᵏᶦᵖᵖᵉᵈ ᶠᵒʳ ᵃ ʷᵒʳˡᵈ ʷᵃʳ ᵒʳ ʰᵉˡᵈ ᵃᵗ ᵃⁿᵒᵗʰᵉʳ ᵛᵉⁿᵘᵉ ᶠᵒʳ ᵃ ʸᵉᵃʳ ᵒʳ ᵗʰᶦˢ ᵒʳ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᵇᵒᵍᵘˢ ʳᵉᑫᵘᶦʳᵉᵐᵉⁿᵗ ᵃⁿᵈ ʷᵉ ʷᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᵉᵛᵉⁿ ᵐᵉⁿᵗᶦᵒⁿ ᵗʰᵒˢᵉ ᵒˡᵈᵉʳ ᵉᵛᵉⁿᵗˢ ᶦⁿ ⁿᵒʳᵐᵃˡ ˢᶦᶻᵉ ᵖʳᶦⁿᵗ ᵇᵉᶜᵃᵘˢᵉ ʷᵉ ᵃʳᵉ ᵇᵃˢᶦᶜᵃˡˡʸ ˡʸᶦⁿᵍ" MorganDWright (talk) 12:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

OK I see the edit you made to the article and like it. Good job, carry on the good work. MorganDWright (talk) 12:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

This discussion did spark me to copyedit the content for clarity. It's a big reason why Talk discussions are very helpful to Wikipedia. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)