Talk:Linji Yixuan

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• busy moving pages right now Hippocrates 14:29, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think we should make two pages. When I select rinzai as with soto I expect an article about the sect, not about the person. The other article could be rinzai gigen here's some more info about rinzai: http://www.buddhapia.com/hmu/bcm/2/zen_soto_rinzai.html Hippocrates

Properly speaking, this article should be called Lin-chi or Linji; however, the sect should probably be at a page titled "Rinzai Buddhism" or Rinzai (Sect), to provide the most clarity. The Rinzai page can be a disambiguation page. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

Which is more accurate, sect or school? To me, sect carries more negative connotations, so I'm surprised to find that Google favors that usage. Is there enough information available to merit multiple articles? --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 11:26, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that "sect" implies a specific organization, which Rinzai is specifically not -- in Japan it has, I think, about five separate organizations. I do think there is enough information available for two separate pages. Linji is fairly notable by himself and there is plenty of info available on Japanese Rinzai.- Nat Krause 15:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I would take "school" to imply a specific organization and "sect" to denote a religious community defined by specific views and practices...however, I don't think either is inappropriate in identifying a branch of Buddhism. Branch works too, speaking of which. One could make an argument for "style" or "form", but I think these are too unstructured. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've got a few things to say about this :) Hippocrates

• see sect: "A sect is a small religious group that has branched off of a larger established religion. Sects have many beliefs and practices in common with the religion that they have broken off from, but are differentiated by a number of doctrinal differences. In contrast, a denomination is a large, well established religious group."
• When using the word "school" one points at their teaching. There's also a community
• I think it's more beautiful in general to say: Rinzai (School) than Rinzai School
• The article about soto is still called Soto instead of, for example: Soto (Denomination)

I'd like to add some more terminology here. Renzai is the name of a Japanese Buddhist sect/denomination. It is also the name of a monastic lineage. The Chinese name for the lineage is "Linji." The lineage includes great teachers in China, one of whom, Lenji, the lineage is named after.

I say this because Renzai is all of these things.

And definitely, if you do insist that Renzai and Lenji are the same thing, then you should insist that Zen be merged with Cha'an, and soto with its proper Chinese ancestors. And you should also document the other "sudden enlightenment" schools, and make sure there are articles about ancient Chinese schools from the period of the patriarchs forward. Or maybe we should just stick with Renzai. Renzai is a lineage, and you can write it as Lenji, too, if you like to transliterate chinese instead of Japanese.

For one thing, for the record, "Rinzai" (not Renzai) is the name of the Japanese Buddhist denomination, and "Linji" (not Lenji) is the name of both the Chinese lineage and the Chinese teacher. You are perfectly right that "Rinzai" is the Japanese pronunciation of "Linji" the latter and vice versa, so therefore one could definitely say that they are the same thing. I think the more relevant issue, though, is simply that we should have separate articles for separate subjects definitely if but only if we have enough material to make it worthwhile. We shouldn't merge them or separate them just to make a point or follow a pattern. Right now, we have enough material for an article on "Soto", the Japanese sect, and arguably enough for a separate article on "Caodong", the Chinese lineage. We also have enough material for an article on the "Rinzai school", the Japanese denomination, and for a separate article on "Linji", the Chinese person. We do not seem to have much of anything on the Chinese Linji lineage, so we don't have that article -- yet. I would recommend that if you want to write something about that, which would be great, it should begin as a section on the Linji page and then get broken out later once there is enough material. Frankly, the Caodong page is kind of a stretch right now. - Nat Krause 10:16, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, Nat. I want to emphasize, however, that Renzai and Soto are also AMERICAN buddhist denominations, FWIW. This morning in San Francisco, CA, USA, I went to San Francisco Zen Center, a Soto Zen temple. I sat facing a wall, unlike when I used to go to a Renzai temple in Seattle. The fact that Soto and Renzai lineage distinctions have made their way into Western Zen Buddhism is important, but it blurs the line between denomination and lineage since only some, but not all, of the Renzai or Soto temples in the west are affiliated with the Soto-shu or Renzai-shu(?) Japanese organizations.

I don't think Renzai in America is a denomination. --Defenestrate 18:29, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal: A disambiguation page for Lenji (person)/Lenji (chinese spelling) & Renzai (Japanese spelling) lineages/Renzai japanese religious organization.

Proposal the second: Information about these things should be consistent with Japanese and Chinese pages of the same titles. Lenji and Renzai should be offered in katakana and traditional Chinese words.

All in favor? --Defenestrate 18:29, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Most widespread Zen sect?

Isn't Soto more widespread than Rinzai? 91.106.167.126 (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

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Quotefarm

@Likes Thai Food: your edits diff removed sourced info, added a large amount of quotes, which is to be avoide dper WP:QUOTEFARM, and you gave your own interpretations of those quotes, which comes close to WP:OR. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Joshua Jonathan. I removed the section on the Three Mysterious Gates, as they actually make only a single passing appearance in the Linjilu. Moreover, as Sasaki observes (Record of Linji, page 149), their exact meaning is cryptic and has been interpreted in different ways. The later tradition reads much into these, seeing in them some connection to koans and huatou, which was reflected in the section in question. The issue is, Linji himself did not teach or practice koans or huatou, as these were later developments of the Song dynasty. So, I deleted that section in its entirety as I feel the Three Mysterious Gates are not really representative of Linji's teachings. Compared to the single passing mention of the Three Mysterious Gates in the Linjilu, the themes which I presented are ubiquitous across Linji's sermons. These themes include: non-dependency, solitary brightness, wu-shih (not-a-thing-to-do), etc. Also, could you please let me know specifically where I gave my own interpretations to the quotes I provided. I feel I presented everything pretty transparently, reading Linji on his own terms. Likes Thai Food (talk) 08:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, I looked at the source for the info provided in the section on the Three Mysterious Gates, and I think Buswell makes it pretty clear that he is not talking about Linji's own teachings on the Three Mysterious Gates, but rather how these are interpreted by the later tradition. He begins his discussion on the subject with, "we may now turn to specific interpretive tools used in the Ch'an school to uphold its sectarian point of view." Moreover, that Buswell's chapter is titled "Chan Hermeneutics: A Korean View" makes it plain that he is not providing Linji's own view. Therefore the section on the Three Mysterious Gates as it currently exists is inappropriate on the Linji Wikipedia page, or at least under a section devoted to Linji's own teachings. Likes Thai Food (talk) 10:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Likes Thai Food here that the three mysterious gates are not really relevant here, and certainly huatou are not relevant and were not taught in the Linjilu. As such, the paragraph that was removed in the teachings section should be moved or removed, since it gives the false impression that Linji taught huatou or that the three gates have some kind of major role in his teaching, which they do not. Sasaki notes (Record of Linji p. 148) that the term 三玄門 (gate of three mysteries) is actually derived from the Daodejing, which mentions 玄門. It was adopted by various Chinese Buddhist teachers to refer to various ideas such as principle, wisdom and function, and did not originate with Linji. As Sasaki says, this is a single cryptic mention in the Linjilu which Linji does not expand on any further. Later traditions commented and drew on this term to explain their own original teachings. Later figures like Chinul connected the teaching with the practice of huatou (Buswell, Numinous Awareness Is Never Dark p. 81), but obviously, Linji did not, since he just mentions 三玄門 and does not expand on it, and he certainly did not teach huatou since this developed in the Song with Dahui and some of his predecessors. As such, this passage does need to be either removed, moved to another page (maybe Linji school) or to be re-edited in such a way that it is clear that this is a later interpretation by later figures. I think the best thing to do is just to both edit it to make it clear it is a later interpretation and development and to move it to the Linji school page under a proper section. Javier F.V. 12:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Having looked at the QuoteFarm link you provided containing Wikipedia's position on the matter, I understand my edit to have been overladen with quotations. Perhaps I can try to rework some of the quoted material into paraphrased content. Likes Thai Food (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I would say keep a few of the juicy quotes, like 3-4, but lets try to get the rest of it to be encylopedic style prose. Thanks for your work on this and welcome to Wikipedia. Javier F.V. 12:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! And sounds good. I'll try and rework it. Likes Thai Food (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)