Talk:Morlachs

Stara Vlaška

Where exactly is this Stara Vlaška region of Croatia? The only Stara Vlaška I know is a street in Zagreb :)

Well, this region was really, really small: it was kept in a box in a shop of that Zagreb street. :)

My googling shows that it would be either be in Macedonia and Thessaly, or in the interior of "old Servia", or in Bosnia, which are all similarly ambiguous. The EB1911 goes into a bit more detail saying how Morlacchia came to be applied to pretty much all of modern Dalmatia, Bosnia and Slavonia, but that doesn't help the confusion... --Joy [shallot] 20:49, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It appears that it was indeed in Bosnia, not Croatia. BTW, searching for this I also found some interesting stuff on the Timok Vlachs of Serbia. [1] Bogdan | Talk 21:20, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The page on Zlatibor now mentions Stari Vlah - look into that. --Joy [shallot] 9 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)

Some link

I found a reference on a website (not necessarily reliable, I think it was [[2]]) that said that Morovlachs meant 'Sea Vlachs'. I'm sure that's wrong, because 'Moro'/'Mavro' is more likely from a Greek word meaning 'black/brown'. But the explanation given on the site is that these Vlachs originally lived on the Sea coast (Dalmatia or Albania). Alexander 007 05:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

According to this paper, Black means North and White means South. Well, it fits here and also fits on the Black Cumania (in Ukraine) and White Cumania (in Wallachia). Anyway, this is similar to the way North and South are named in Romanian:

• North: Miazănoapte ("Midnight")
• South: Miazăzi ("Midday"). Bogdan | Talk 12:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stupid question

Is there any connection between the name "Morlach" and "Morlock" (from H.G. Wells' books). Just wondering, perhaps it is a coincidence... - FrancisTyers 17:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

No there isn't ...

Actually, contrary to the anonymous contributors reply, there may be. Wells may have read the name somewhere and it came to him when he was looking for a name for his fictional creatures. A is putting the smack down (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Like Tolkin's "Midland" which is Eng translation of "Mediterranean" (medium-terra) and many other examples... Zenanarh (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

infobox

Morlachs

File:Vlachs.JPG
Regions with significant populations
Bosnia Albania Romania Republic of Macedonia Bulgaria
Languages
Romanian and other languages in the areas in which they live
Religion
Eastern Orthodoxy, others
Related ethnic groups
• Vlachs   • Romanians   • Moldovans   • Megleno-Romanians   • Istro-Romanians • other Latin peoples

what's wrong with this inforbox? Can anyone tell me why is reverted? --Preacher, or Princelet 13:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Erm, what's the source for the population figure? I'd say that Morlachs are practically extinct, i.e. assimilated into Slavic peoples around. For God's sake, only 22 people in Croatia assert the Morlach ethnicity, and I doubt anyone speaks the language anymore. Duja 07:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You're talking to Bonaparte, Duja. ;-) —Khoikhoi 03:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

250,000 estimated Morlachs? LOL. Only a fraction of one percent (about 20) are Morlachs, unless someone is fooling around in wikipedia by posting fake demographic information. I can only guess a quarter of a million Croatians may have Morlachian ancestry, genetics or even live in the former province. But they are not Morlachians, don't speak any Morlach and only self-identify as Croatians or other South Slavic ethnicity. Good thing the estimation entry was long removed, doesn't contribute a cent's worth in the article. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 03:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Dubious assertion

From the article:

The first phase of that proactive assimilation of Morlachs took place in Herzegovina and Montenegro where they not only were accepting the language of the local Slavs (now identified Serbs), but also turning it into a new Slavic language "novoshtokavian" which would later serve as the base for Serbo-Croatian. But the fact that the Morlachs in the Western Balkan never reached the level of a nation, and had not given it their proper name resulted in recent disintegration of the Serbo-Croatian into Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian language.

Are you saying that Morlachs were responsible for generation of neo-shtokavian??? OMG! Morlachs are also responsible for disintegration of Serbo-Croatian??? That should better be backed up with some reliable sources. Otherwise, it doesn't belong to the article. Duja 10:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

He/she hasn't provided any sources, that is original research and the information can't be accepted in the article. Now if the anonymous IP is right in some way, the article must be rewritten on the "extinct" Morlachs are "revived" in the early 2000's. To be truthful, Novo-Shtokavian is a Croatian dialect, not a separate Romance language and doesn't count as a by-product of Morlachian. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 03:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Added link to Croatian Wikipedia

hr:Morlaci

--kliker 02:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Assimilation

Part of the article says that "eventually most Morlachs linguistically assimilated the local Slavs." This statement is unclear, does it mean that the Slavs were assimilated into the Morlach population, or the Morlachs were assimilated into the Slav population? Later in the article it says the latter, but that happened much later. This should probably be cleared up.Rcduggan (talk) 13:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Morlachs were assimilated into the Slav population. Zenanarh (talk) 06:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the source for this text

I copy-pasted this from the article:

"Furthermore the Vlach or Vlasi are descendents of the Italic peoples of Latio, who were Romanized; but they were related to the Slavs in the first place or more correctly to the Proto-Slavs who lived on the Italic and Balkan peninsulas much before the sixth century AD, as it has been assumed wrongly since the middle of the 19th century. According to Slav historians whose passed on the tradition and knowledge from their predecessors, the Slavs were one of the indigenous peoples of the region around the Black Sea, the Balkans and spreading out towards Western Europe, into the Italic Peninsula, and further on to Sicily where a tribe from Dalmatia called the Sikuli settled. The Italic Proto-Slavs-like the Etrurians or Raseni, as they called themselves-came under the strong colonial and cultural influence of the Greeks and were later merged into the Roman Republic and nation."

What is the source for this? It looks like extravagant text and also it is mostly off-topic. A is putting the smack down (talk) 11:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Dalmatian speakers and Vlachs

There is confusion in the article between speakers of Dalmatian language/Vegliot on one hand and speakers of Eastern Romance on the other. This confusion has been in the article for years and I brought it to attention on this talk page back in 2006. For example, the references to Morlachs on the island of Krk (also called Veglia), where Dalmatian speakers were settled leads me to conclude that the reference is to Dalmatian-speakers. Was the term Vlach and Maurovlach used for Dalmatian speakers and Easteern Romance speakers? This may be the case, for example Italians have also been referred to as Vlachs (by Poles, etc.). A is putting the smack down (talk) 19:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Vlachs and Morlachs were differently used by different sources. It's possible that Vegliot speakers used Morlachs for the shephards, settlers of the Dalmatian inland, remains of the Romanized Illyrians, while in the same time the Venetian or Croatian speakers could have used it for isolated groups of Vegliot speakers, who were also nothing but Romanized pre-Roman natives. It's very important to notice that Dalmatian language (probably dialect closer to Ragusan than Vegliot) almost completely disappeared in Zadar during 14th century, completely replaced by Croatian, while the documents were always written in Latin. And one of the first writings about the Morlachs came from Zadar in 14th century. There's a lot of mess with these ethnonyms - its meaning range from ethnos to profession, depending on the source, author and period. Zenanarh (talk) 14:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Extinct ethnic group

The number of Morlachs are very low, perhaps full-blooded or self-designated members of the ethnic group are gone. They paid a heavy toll of cultural assimilation into Croatian/Yugoslavian and/or Italian society. Some ethnological sources continued to portray Morlachs in the Balkans and perhaps a subgroup of Croatian-Italians a "dormant ethnicity" who have living descendants living at the present, but none of them to our knowledge are observing Morlachian customs such as learning to speak the ancestral language. The 20 Morlachs of Croatia in the 21st century are in it's end.

I doubt any "born again Morlachian" is around to create a neo-Morlachian or "Balkan Morlach Revival" movement, unlike the current Celtic revival movements of "born again Celts" in late 20th century England with the issue of Cornish people and the lloegr or "lost land people" in Great Britain; and the Celtic nationalists of Galicians or Cantabricans in northern Spain. The Morlachs were a missing piece of European history, the Romanized peoples of what later became Yugoslavia after the Slavic peoples resettled the land. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 03:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Has anybody taken pains to track down and interview these remaining 22 people? I think it should be done for the sake of collecting as much information as possible. It is odd that we have this chance still and do not make use of it. Many sources state that Morlachs were extict since the XVIII or XIX century and now (in 1991) 22 people happened to identify themselves as Morlachs. Is it not a great thing...?Aldrasto (talk) 12:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

LOL you don't understand. Real Morlachs are really extinct, probably already from the 15th century. All those Morlachs later were people of "Morlachian proffession" - sheep shephards in the Dinaric Alps. Just because they were not some educated people they probably equalized their ethnicity to their proffession - remains of Medieval social class separation. I doubt these "Neo-Morlachs" have anything special to say - except why they have decided to use "Morlach" as ethnicity. BTW Morlach descendents are Croats today. If you want to know something about "Morlachian culture" you just need to ask any Croat from inland Dalmatia and Herzegovina ;-) Zenanarh (talk) 13:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you are right, maybe not... Nonetheless I think given the present circumstances it would be worth its while to hear what these people have to say about their family history, descent, migrations etc. Let people tell their story... Morlachs as other Rumenians/Arumenians are jealously attached to their origins and traditions. It seems these 22 people live in Istria, together with other Istroromanians: this proves that they all feel a sense of belonging to same great family of the Romanians of the Balkans. It is a nation that has lived there and survived for more than 2000 years. As such it has its distictive charachter and outstanding ethnological interest. There are just 22 of them left who still identify themselves as Morlachs, why not spending the time and effort?Aldrasto (talk) 15:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Aha in Istria, that's something else, it's interesting if they use "Morlachs" since they were using rather "Rumani" or "Vlasi" per records in the past. Yes there is small Istro-Romanian community there, but not 2.000 yrs old for sure, in the same place. 1st record of them was in the 12th century. It's not certain whether they were emigrants from Romania or the last remains of the inland Dalmatian language speeakers (in this case they would be 2.000 yrs old in the same place). It seems that Dalmatian language dialects in the inland (not in the islands and littoral cities) were more close to Romanian. Zenanarh (talk) 09:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Slavonia, the Eastern part of Croatia was named Little Valachia meaning today little Romania (former Pokrac and Pojega sanjaks) . There was a large number of local Vlachs and Vlachs brought from eastern or southern parts of Serbia. Some Croats historians called them Morlachs. So the discussion is very long...

Riadder (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Meaning of "Black"

It says in this article that "Black" might mean "Northern" according to Turkish name of the cardinal points, there might be some other explanations, for example this alternative explanation using the old-Slavonic cardinal points names (which is actually reversed)

"The ethnographic explanation that the term was applied from the old-Slavonic use of colours for the cardinal points on the compass. The ancient totem-god Svitovyd had four faces. The northern face of this totem was white (hence White Russia), the western face red (hence Chervona (Red) Rus'), the southern black and the eastern green (hence Zelenyj klyn). This, however, makes the placement of Black Ruthenia problematic." from White Russia . - signed by anon IP

So, which one is the correct (or most likely) explanation? -- man with one red shoe 15:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

First, Turkish is not Turkish, it's Old-Iranian. I've never heard about reverse Old-Slavonic (!?). There are other explanations about 'black' like color of Morlachian clothes - dark, black,... Zenanarh (talk) 07:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I contend the term "black" is more attributed to geographical locations, like the "Black mountain" of Montenegro or in their language Crna Gora. The Dalmatian coasts have several mountains noted for their dark color, close to "black" and the inhabitants are beige or tanned due to the high amount of sunlight in a warmer climate of the Adriatic. But there were some tales of descendants of brown-skinned peoples known as the Balkan Egyptians whom are identified as ethnological relatives to the Romani people, and that the Morlachs are probably an autochtonous people in the Balkans before any other present-day Indo-European linguistic races appeared in southeastern Europe about 5000 years ago. But the terms "Moors" are commonly found in areas where Islam ruled parts of southern Europe and/or were settled by Moors, Arabs, Turks and even a miniscule number of West African slaves brought over to Europe in waves either by the Romans, Greeks, Byzantines and Ottomans, or western European traders. 71.102.1.101 (talk) 07:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Zenanarh: The anon has a point. See Cardinal direction#Cardinal directions in world cultures (which says nothing about Iranian). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Croatian census

Please avoid eliminating Croatian census from text. It is official data not private data. Your edits are original research (OR) in the language of Wikipedia. Riadder (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Please provide reference that Morlachs are "officially recognized ethnicity". People write in census that they are Klingon. This does not make Klingons recognized ethnicity in the United States or Russia (or in other countries where such idiots live). Staszek Lem (talk)

Please read what means Census and who made the Croatian Census. Your opinion is (OR) Original Research !Riadder (talk) 10:23, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

My opinion is not original research, because I do not add anything to wikipedia article. On the other hand, you did not provide a a reference I requested, as it is requires by Wikipedia rules. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I'm not seeing a citation to the census in question, please provide one. As for the nature of censuses: Statistics bureaus are not policymakers. "Official recognition" implies policymaking. Therefore, statistics bureaus do not provide "official recognition." I do not know of exceptions to that rule, but if you do, feel free to provide relevant citations. In the meanwhile, here's some reading. François Robere (talk) 00:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

The Croatian census and Vlach situation is described in: http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/469cbf8f0.pdf Riadder (talk) 12:45, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

I only see one mention of Vlachs in table 1 - Ethnic structure of the population in Croatia, 1981–2001 (p. 7).

Note this distinction between census characterization and formal recognition: "In the 1991 census, many Croatian citizens declared themselves to be members of 23 nationalities, 22 of which enjoy the legal status of national minorities." (p. 6) François Robere (talk) 13:54, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

This article is about Morlachs. The census data does not list Morlachs. "Morlachs" is an obsolete term. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:27, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Warning. Frecvent disrupting was reported to administrators. Please read about exonims before making disruptive edits. Denying the existence of a minority is a NATIONALISTIC and RASIST approach Riadder (talk) 05:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Two thoughts: First, that source says nothing about official recognition, so we definitely have to remove the word "recognized " until / unless a better source is found. I'm also concerned about the connection between the word "Morlachs" and "Vlachs" - that paragraph connects the two, but the source doesn't. I would suggest trimming it down to just "In Croatia today, "Vlachs" are the smallest minority identified by name in the Croatian census, with 29 individuals declaring themselves Vlachs in the 2011 Croatian census." Then this sentence has to be moved next to another (sourced) section talking about how the words relate to each other. Even then, it might make more sense on the article for Vlachs, since the source doesn't mention the word Morlachs. --Aquillion (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Morlachs are a historic social community and do not exist today. Those "Vlachs" are Istro-Romanians. There should be no mention of 29 individuals (?) at this article.--Zoupan 19:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Do Morlachs exist in Croatia today?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Please see section above, #Croatian census and recent revert war. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• No. "Morlachs" is an obsolete term and the census data do not list them. Therefore the disputed paragraph does not belong to this article. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
• No, or at least the sources we have at the moment don't support that. We can say that a small number of people identify as Vlachs, but we would need to place that after an additional source connecting the terms, and it would have to be more cautiously worded (the word "recognized" in particular is loaded and doesn't seem to necessarily reflect the source, which is unclear on what being in this list means. Recognized by who or what?) --Aquillion (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• We need to keep all data about the Morlchs/Vlachs. They belong to the heritage of Croatia and denying their existence even their number is reduced is pure nationalism and racism. We do not need such approach in this article. The provided reference show the existence of a small number of Vlachs/Morlachs. The nationalism provided here is against normal education in Croatia.

Riadder (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

OTHER References on Morlachs/Vlachs census. Editors like Stasek and Aquillion do not understand that Morlach is an exonim for Vlach !

1. Laurence Mitchell, Serbia, Publisher: Bradt Travel Guides LTD, USA, 2013, p.39, ISBN 978 1841624361

2. Marianne Nikolov, Early Learning of Modern Foreign Languages: Processes and Outcomes, Publisher: Multilingual Matters, Bristol, Buffalo, Toronto, 2009, p. 31, ISBN 978 1847691460

• There is a Croatian Census: https://www.dzs.hr/hrv/censuses/Census2001/Popis/H01_03_10/H01_03_10.html Here is clear the Vlachs(Morlachs) still exist in Croatia. We still have nationalists who deny minorities.

86.124.160.242 (talk) 17:20, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Fortis wrote that Morlachs did not necessarly call themselves Morlachs but rather Vlachs. Reference: Larry Wolff, Rise and fall of Morlachismo. In: Norman M. Naimark, Holly Case, Stanford University Press, Yugoslavia and Its Historians: Understanding the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, ISBN 978-0804745949 p.39

• "Morlachs" is not an exonym for Vlachs, nor synonymous with 29 individuals identifying as Vlah in Croatia. This article is clear about the subject. Staszek Lem is right in reverting the POV-warring Riadder.--Zoupan 21:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• This survey seems to be falsificated. There are references but users Zoupan and Staszek Lem did not read them. They use false hypotheses and original research. 93.122.251.75 (talk) 06:13, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

• Summoned by bot No the issue seems to be one of semantics, but the key issue is that in the report by a leading minority rights group used to support the claim morlachs still exist, it explicitly denies the existence of Morlachs in Croatia. Prince of Thieves (talk) 21:22, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
• No (Summoned by bot) per others. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 12:14, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Minority heritage is often marginalized or even destroyed –it is sometimes even stripped of its right to be called ‘heritage,’ and the minorities this heritage belongs to are forced to live in conditions which are close to assimilation. It is the case of Morlachs/Vlachs from Croatia. 79.112.45.135 (talk) 06:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

That is not relevant here, go find a reliable source that says "Morlachs = Vlachs" and post it here. Prince of Thieves (talk) 12:41, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Morlacchi = Vlassi of the sea

"This however is denied by the Abbé Fortis who hath published a volume of travels into that country. He informs us that the origin of the Morlacchi is involved in the darkness of barbarous ages ....

With regard to the etymology of the name the Abbé observes that the Morlacchi generally call them selves in their own language Vlassi a national term of which no vestige is found in the records of Dalmatia till the 13th century. It signifies powerful men or men of authority and the denomination of Moro Vlassi, corruptly, Morlacchi as they are now called may perhaps point out the original of the nation. This word may posibly signify the conquerors that came from the sea Moor in all the dialects of the Sclavonian language signifying the sea. "

The Morlacchi are so different from the inhabitants of the sea-coasts in dialect, dress, dispositions, that they seem clearly to be of a different original, or at least the colonies must have settled distant periods from each other, that they have had time to alter in a great measure their national character. There is also a remarkable diversity among the Morlacchi themselves in several districts on account of the different countries from whence they came. source: "Encyclopedia Britannica", EDINBURGH PRINTED FOR A. BELL AND C. MACFARQUHAR MDCCXCVII — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.223.163.182 (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)