User talk:Pfortuny/Trinity

Previous discussion here

First in-depth reading

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• A practical understanding of the Trinity centers upon Christian Baptism. This is the starting point, to apprehend why the doctrine matters to so many Christians, even though what the doctrine teaches about the being of God is beyond complete comprehension. The Apostles' Creed, for example, has been commonly used as a brief summation of Christian faith, to be professed by converts to Christianity when they receive baptism, and at other times in the liturgy of the church.

Needs rephrasing for my taste: I do not fully understand it. ?? ?? conceptual summary: "Trinity relates to Baptism -> reason why it matters so much -> even though not comprehension -> Apostles' Creed and converts -> baptism of converts -> liturgy"

I cannot make too much of it (are we trying to say too many things in a short paragraph?). Pfortuny 19:53, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps. My aim in putting it this way, is to explain not so much "why" the Trinity matters, but "how" it matters. The flow is like this: Christian baptism admission into a handed down faith; handed down in the name of the Trinity; thus, this is the name into which the Christian is baptized; and for that reason it is the faith he professes.

The rest of it is simply illustration of this point. Basil: "the terms", Constantinople "the faith of our baptism", Apostles' Creed: "I believe."... etc. The trinity is not graduate level stuff. It is elementary to understand that we are baptized into the name, and profess faith in God in terms of, the Trinity. Mkmcconn

and so on... Although this appears at first to be a peculiar way to begin; I'm pretty sure that in the long run, it will allow the article to open up and include controversies without getting off-track as easily as it would if we start with a discussion of metaphysics. Mkmcconn 21:43, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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• Section on Christian Life and the Trinity (header added by me). Needs re-writing: to the Father we go, those who have been saved by the Son, with the aid of the Holy Spirit is what I think we intend to say? Pfortuny 19:53, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Close enough, I think. Mkmcconn

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• The central, and crucial affirmation of Christian faith is that there is one savior, God, and one salvation, in Jesus Christ, to which there is access only because of the Holy Spirit.

quite dark for my taste but cannot find anything better Pfortuny 19:53, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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• Nevertheless, the concept is considered to be of momentous practical importance to the Christian life because, again, it points to the nature of the Christian's reconciliation with God. The excruciatingly fine distinctions can issue in grand differences of emphasis in worship and government, as large as the difference between East and West, which for generations now have been considered practically insurmountable.

What about the following?

• Nevertheless, the concept is considered to be of momentous practical importance to the Christian life because, again, it points to the nature of the Christian's reconciliation with God. What may seem excruciatingly fine distinctions can issue in grand differences of emphasis in worship and government, as those distinctions refer to the Godhead. Actually, those expressions are part of the difference between East and West, which for generations now have been considered practically insurmountable.

Here I stopped. Pfortuny 19:53, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. Mkmcconn 20:31, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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I think that we should consider publishing this, now. More of the anti-trinitarian argument should be added, but at least the whole thing isn't anti-trinitarian, as the current article is. Many of your concerns above have been addressed. In my opinion, it's an improvement of readability, and accuracy, and provides a structure for expansion on either side of each ocntroversial issue. I don't think that it requires a vote. Mkmcconn 16:24, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)