Talk:Bảo Đại/Archive 1
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I noticed someone removed the picture. Can we not use it anymore now that the user who added it has been apparently discredited? Everyking 10:41, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Third Party References
Everyking, I have not been discredited, I understand the rules and know that there must be THIRD PARTY Reference if there is a dispute.
I cannot just say, "this is a Fact" and I cannot produce my own Facts.
I have Third Party references, of Title of Prince and also the establish of Vietnamese Imperial Family Council that shows Prince Buu Phuc as Chairman (3.)
Below are Third party references (Neutral Sources) as to establish that the title "Prince" and the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council that assigned the Title Regent.
Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is by birth a Prince of the Nguyen Dynasty.
1. Here is a Third Party that states he is a Prince please look under listed HONORARY MEMBER on this website
Link 1: http://www.almanach.be/about/
2. Also Here is a Official Royal Letter that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh of Vietnam recieved a Third Party Official Royal Letter from King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia in February 17, 2004.
Note- "Prince-Regent" Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh,
Link 2: http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/07/07/139622/SecondFormalLetterofKingSihanouk.JPG
3. If you goto The International Monarchist League on Monarchy.net a Third Party organization please scroll down to VIETNAM and you will see that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as well as Prince Buu Phuc who assigned Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty.
Link 3: http://www.monarchy.net/directory.htm#
Jimmyvanthach 16:54, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- As I have explained in Talk:Nguyen Dynasty, Jimmyvanthach's references to other websites using the word "Prince" are not enough to support the specific historical claims he is making here: (1) that on "December 22, 1993, Bao Dai held a Imperial Audience and organized the Vietnamese Imperial Family Overseas Central Council", and (2) that such an event, if it did take place, could actually confer any legitimate title on anyone, considering that Bao Dai had already abdicated his position nearly 30 years earlier. Let's have at least one newspaper or book reference, please. Mr. Van Thach, being a lawyer, surely knows how to do homework. ←Hob 19:33, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
Nothing New
_____________________________________________________________
The websites given as refrences do not stand up to serious scholarly scrutiny. The "almanach" site lists Buu Chanh himself as the source for the information on him and the "monarchy.net" site clearly states that they do not endorse or verify any of the organizations listed in their index as authentic. Likewise the "prweb" site is one in which anyone can post any sort of information they like and includes a disclaimer that they do not vouch for any of the content.
Furthermore, it simply makes no sense: the Nguyen dynasty ended in 1945-the Emperor abdicated his authority to Ho Chi Minh. Vietnam is a republic, the United States (of which this Buu Chanh is a citizen) is a republic and neither allow or recognize any hereditary titles. In fact, even in the monarchies that still exist, such as Great Britain, they only allow those titles which are granted by their own sovereign.
There is no evidence in any scholarly work or other encyclopedia to support any of these grandiose claims to "royal" status. Are they perhaps trying to validate a Vietnamese version of the self-crowned Reverend Moon?
References
The ALMANACH DE BRUXELLES is publishing for the first time here details of all present and former dynasties.
For Asian Royalty the refrence is Genealogisches Handbuch der Fürstlichen Häuser edited since 1951 by C.A. Starke, Limburg a.d.Lahn, Germany and the London Almanach de Gotha since 1998.
If you look at Third-Party Reference Annam Kingdom and scroll down to the bottom you will see the title Prince for Prince Buu Chanh.
link: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/states/asia/annam.html
The Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts lists Prince Buu Chanh and Princess Phan Lien as Honorary Fellows.
Scroll down to bottom of the screen to view.
link 1: http://www.aemma.org/aboutAEMMA_top.htm
Link 2: http://www.aemma.org/aboutAEMMA_top.htm
If you goto The International Monarchist League on Monarchy.net a Third Party organization please scroll down to VIETNAM and you will see that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as well as Prince Buu Phuc who assigned Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty.
Link 3: http://www.monarchy.net/directory.htm#
I will will remove the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty unitil I gather outside references together but will resume Prince becuase it is stated by Third Party refrences.
I have presented third party references besides stating your personal belief what validation have you presented ? Jimmyvanthach 18:14, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Nothing New Given
First of all, the website http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/states/asia/annam.html does not list any sources at all for this information, though it looks suspiciously like a modified copy of the "Royal Ark" website (compare at http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Vietnam/annam.htm) other than listing this Buu Chanh's information. The request for corrections would also indicate that they are unsure of their facts.
Likewise, I don't see how anyone would believe that an "academy" studying Medieval European combat would be qualified to speak on the subject of Asian royalty. The information given is simply a repeat of Buu Chanh's own message spammed all over the internet. Again, there is no actual sources for these claims in anything you have presented, you simply point to other people who have repeated what you have told them.
Once again (I have to keep repeating myself) the website for the "International Monarchist League" which you keep referring to states very clearly that "The appearance of an organisation does not necessarily signify agreement with its aims or methods by the International Monarchist League" which is on the very same page you link to. Similarly, elsewhere on the site, it states that they are "independent of any political party or group".
Your Reference
http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/states/asia/annam.html The reference you give on a website is of old information that is not updated and is not accurate. There is no research done, or books listed to show how the website recieved its facts.
But since you provided the site, I looked it over and if you scroll to the bottom you will see that Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as "Prince"
Pr. BUU CHANH [Nguyen Phuoc Buu Chanh], born 12th February 1942 in Hue, descendant of Prince Kien Hoa, (the Duke of Kien Hoa) who was the 71st son of the Emperor Minh Mang, married Phan Lien and has issue, 4 children.Jimmyvanthach 14:05, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Totally Bogus
In all of your website links, you still have not produced anything that could possibly amount to actual evidence. The first simply repeats information from your group. The monarchy.net site says explicitly that it does not vouch for any of the people or groups listed in their directory and it simply blows the mind that anyone would think that a website about 'European Medieval martial arts' would be an authoritative source on Vietnamese dynastic procedures. You have produced no evidence whatsoever. Anyone with any higher education knows that the internet is not a legitimate source of information, anyone can put up anything they want.
Furthermore, any of this would be invalid anyway since this Buu Chanh, according to his own information, was an infant when Emperor Bao Dai abdicated to Ho Chi Minh in 1945. The monarchy ENDED, Bao Dai resigned, he was not Emperor anymore, he was plain old citizen Nguyen Vinh Thuy. He had no power to do any of this even if he tried (which you have not proven anyway). There is NO monarchy anymore, not in America or France or Vietnam, all of which are republics and do not recognize any titles like this.
You have not presented any evidence that Bao Dai actually did any of the things you claim, nor have you presented any evidence that it would be valid if he did (which would be impossible since he abdicated in 1945). As for me, I don't have to prove anything since I am not the one making claims to exalted status, I'm not the one claiming to be "Imperial Highness Prince Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty". You are the one making the claim, so you are the one who has to prove it. It is a common trait of fake pretenders to make absurd claims and then demand that other people simply accept it until someone else can "prove" them false. My proof is your lack of proof; you cannot present proof of something if it never happened.
Asian Vietnamese Review
I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor
You are correct there is no Monarchy in Vietnam, The monarchy ENDED. That is not what the biography is advocating.
Emperor Bao Dai formed the Vietnamese Imperial Council and the documents are on the net via google search or yahoo search, are are not in fair use at the present time to be distributed.
Prince Buu Chanh is not the Crown Prince, Bao Long is the Crown Prince of the Nguyen Dynasty a Ceremonial position.
The Nguyen Dynasty is just the royal house it is not a government in exile lives on and the Nguyen Dynasty succeeds as long as the Regent is established to handle the daily activities of Religious and advocate for the people of Vietnam.
Emperor Bao Dai Edict stated that Prince Buu Phuc as the Chairman and in control of the Imperial Nguyen Phoc House.
If that is the case therefore Crown Prince Bao Long does not have any power, his only right is to goto the Vietnamese Imperial Council to present any suggestions.
Crown Prince Bao Long as made his statement aware to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council:
Please see Vietnam’s Imperial Crown Prince
Official Nguyen Dynasty Document
Furthermore, it is not my group, I am a Vietnamese-Ameirican that is is interested in my culture and doing research on it.Jimmyvanthach 11:23, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Still Proves Nothing
First of all, if you have finally faced the fact that the monarchy ended and Bao Dai abdicated his authority, then he had no authority whatsoever to form a council to lead the entire family, this Buu Chanh has no right to speak "for" anyone but himself. Further, a regent is certainly a government position, in a monarchy, as someone who acts in the absence of the head of state. The links you give, again, prove absolutely nothing. The one is from your own group website and contains no actual evidence of anything, the other is simply a biography of Bao Long, again, this proves absolutely nothing about anything you claim. Do you have any idea what valid sources are?
NguyenHue
Still Proves Nothing
First of all, if you have finally faced the fact that the monarchy ended and Bao Dai abdicated his authority, then he had no authority whatsoever to form a council to lead the entire family, this Buu Chanh has no right to speak "for" anyone but himself. Further, a regent is certainly a government position, in a monarchy, as someone who acts in the absence of the head of state. The links you give, again, prove absolutely nothing. The one is from your own group website and contains no actual evidence of anything, the other is simply a biography of Bao Long, again, this proves absolutely nothing about anything you claim. Do you have any idea what valid sources are?
NguyenHue
Contact Asian Vietnamese Expert
I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papersJimmyvanthach 14:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
still nothing provided
The link provided mentions nothing concerning the Nguyen Dynasty, nothing about this professor writing on the subject and nothing about her or your sources. What part of the word "evidenc" do you not understand?
International Monarchist League
Concerning The Dr. My-Van Tran, I have contacted her and she confirmed the documents that are provided to her about Nguyen Dynasty document of Emperor Bao Dai.
You can also contact Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung.
His email is Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com
Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam.
Please look over information concerning the Association de l'Imperiale Familie du Vietnam and it also names Prince Buu Chanh.
VIETNAM
• Association de l'Imperiale Familie du Vietnam
Arc-En-Ciel-Bellatrix, rue du Colonel Gassin, F-0600 Nice, France.
Tel: +33 4 93851289
Contact: Prince Buu-Phuc
• The Vietnamese Imperial Family Overseas Council & South East Asia Imperial & Royal League
c/o P.O. Box 6621 Aurora, Illinois 60598-0621, USA.
Tel & Fax: +1 630 499 7964
Contact: HIH Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh of Vietnam
The link is: International Monarchist League Directory
The International Monarchist League's aim is, quite simply, to support the principle of monarchy. It is independent of any political party or group, and its subscribers are drawn from many countries and all walks of life. As well as receiving the quarterly journal, Monarchy, subscribers have the opportunity to take part in the activities arranged by Headquarters.
All statements I have collected and researched myself and anyone can do this by simply writing or emailing them for confirmation, I have provided the refrences. Jimmyvanthach 19:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
HELLO?
It is not my job to prove your ridiculous claims! Nor is it very proffessional to simply expect everyone to 'take your word for it' when you list all these claims of people who could verify what you say, which, for reasons I have already listed, would be impossible. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go writing to every kotowing follower of this pretender just to disprove a case of your's. Your failure to produce and evidence and seeming inability to even understand what legitimate evidence would be, have already proven my point for me.
Prove ?
I am not making any claims, I have just done research concerning the Vietnamese Monarchy and about the Nguyen Dynasty. I have just contact Tran Van Ba, which anyone can contact him, he was the last Colonel-in-chief of the Imperial Guards of Emperor Bao Dai. All I am providing is to contact them as a reference. I am only a plain history student studying my vietnamese history.
I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers
Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung.
His email is Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com
Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam.
please note there is a photo of him with Emperor Bao Dai, and Emperor Bao Dai assigned him advisor to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council.
Please provide your information of your refrences that you have found ? Jimmyvanthach 02:38, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
ridiculous
You're asking me for proof? The fact that there is no proof is the very point! You cannot present "proof" of something that never happened, which is exactly what you have produced so far...nothing. How are we to know who the man in the picture is? Why are we expected to blindly trust that the people you keep referring to have any actual credibility or any actual avidence to prove anything that you keep claiming? So far, you and your cohorts have quite a history of making propagandistic statements, trying to push people with grand claims that are not listed in any serious scholarly work on Vietnam, certainly in no other printed encyclopedias or works on the subject, you have copied numerous pages to this website from other webpages and seem to take great offense when people dare to question some guy that is an American citizen who goes around calling himself "prince" and handing out "royal status" to all his relatives.
You could not possibly produce anything because, as of 1945, "His Imperial Majesty the Bao Dai Emperor" became plain and simple citizen Nguyen Vinh Thuy. He cannot "make" people royalty, he cannot pass out "leadership" of a family thousands in number, no more than you or I could. No one can give power to someone else to speak on behalf of thousands of people around the world just because they are distantly related. This is totally bogus stuff, a bunch of people playing 'let's pretend' who seem to be so arrogant that being a common citizen "isn't good enough" for them and taking offense at anyone who doesn't recognize them as "Imperial Highnesses"
If you want to play 'let's pretend I'm better than everyone else' and kotow to some guy who wants to call himself a prince, that's your own business, but trying to push it off on other people as something legitimate is not only dishonest, it is downright despicable.
Scholar work
Dr. My-Van Tran has written books on the Royals of Vietnam, I suggest you view her site and reference her books concerning these issues. i.e. Prince Cuong De
- Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers
There is no pretending and you seem to be speaking of opinion, but that is your right, but when I have completed by research on books that confirm this, then you will have to provide a book that disproves Emperor Bao Dai Edict and Prince Buu Phuc and the Chairman in charge of the Imperial Nguyen Phuoc to be in control of the Nguyen House. Jimmyvanthach 02:37, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Head of Imperial Nguyen House of Vietnam
I have contacted Prince Buu Phuc, concerning Emperor Bao Dai intent. You are correct, that he is not a reigning Emperor, but he was still the Head of the Imperial Nguyen House of Vietnam , he is was not the leader of the nation of Vietnam.
Emperor Bao Dai in exile signed a letter of transfering all duties and responsibilites to the Nguyen Imperial House of Vietnam to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council, and that person was Prince Buu Phuc.
The role of Crown Prince Bao Long is only ceremonial since he does not have any power over the affairs of the Nguyen Dyansty. I am researching the material and getting some refrences on books as User HOB as suggested.
When I complete the research I will document the reference and then prepare a biography on it.
I will get to the bottom of this and I urge you to help if you wish to work together and have references from books, not internet sites as USER HOB suggested.Jimmyvanthach 22:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What duties exactly?
If you work with these people and have the papers signed by Bao Dai, why not simply post them on-line and be done with it? You might also explain how anyone of any family, royal or common, has the power to delegate being "boss" over the rest of his family to anyone. If he disinherited Bao Long, why is it that Bao Long still has the imperial sword and seal rather than Buu Phuc? Why is it that Bao Long announced the death of the former Emperor on television rather than Buu Phuc? If the Emperor made Buu Phuc and Buu Chanh bosses over the dynasty and the rest of the family accepted this, why are there no pictures of Phuong Mai or Bao Thang or Georges Vinh San or any of Ham Nghi's family on your website? If Bao Dai was still head of the dynasty, why does appear that no one is respecting his wishes except the very person who now claims to be in charge? NguyenHue
Edict by Emperor Bao Dai
The Royal Edict signed by Emperor Bao Dai has been viewed by other Royals. It is a dynastic and cannot be viewed and published on the internet. I have been told this by the Imperial Staff that I emailed. Just because Bao Long allegedly may have the sword and the seal, does not been he can assume control over the Nguyen House. Emperor Bao Dai had established in 1982 that Prince Buu Phuc is the Chairman(principal) of the Vietnamese Imperial Family and that all family members must cooperate with him.
"If the Emperor made Buu Phuc and Buu Chanh bosses over the dynasty and the rest of the family accepted this, why are there no pictures of Phuong Mai or Bao Thang or Georges Vinh San or any of Ham Nghi's family on your website?"
The reason is because Emperor Bao Dai did not include their names in the Royal Edict and futhermore when he established the Vietnamese Imperial Council Staff they were not assigned positions as Prince Buu Chanh and Ton That Ngoc. Jimmyvanthach 02:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So in other words...
you still have no proof for any of this; everyone is just supposed to take your word for it (or maybe Carl Lindgren's word, or maybe Tran Van Ba's word or maybe...)
After 1945 Bao Dai is no longer emperor and cannot issue any imperial edicts, that is a fact he has no more authority or responsibility over anyone but himself.
Fact ?
I understand your point, but were is your reference that you are stating that "emperor and cannot issue any imperial edicts, that is a fact he has no more authority or responsibility over anyone but himself"
Emperor Bao Dai ceased being the Emperor of Vietnam, but he still was the head of the Nguyen Dynasty. The books I am researching names him still as the head of the house even though he abidicated the throne.Jimmyvanthach 19:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Fact ?
I understand your point, but were is your reference that you are stating that "emperor and cannot issue any imperial edicts, that is a fact he has no more authority or responsibility over anyone but himself"
Emperor Bao Dai ceased being the Emperor of Vietnam, but he still was the head of the Nguyen Dynasty. The books I am researching names him still as the head of the house even though he abidicated the throne.
As I stated above, I am researching books of reference concerning disputes as USER HOB has suggested. Jimmyvanthach 19:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, FACT
The fact is the instrument of abdication, which you seem totally incapable of comprehending. Bao Dai could not have issued any "Imperial Edicts" after 1945 because he was not Emperor anymore! He quit, resigned, tossed Uncle Ho the keys and said, take this job and shove it. He gave up his imperial status, that is what abdication is, it means he stopped being the emperor and could not go on acting like one, which there is no evidence that he did. Bao Dai, like his children and the rest of the senior family members, have accepted this situation, in fact, Bao Dai even said he was happy to abdicate and felt relieved and unburdened by it. The only people who don't seem to get the message is you of Buu Chanh's group who can't seem to accept the fact that being a "Nguyen-Phuc" doesn't make you any more important or powerful or special than anyone else. NguyenHue 18:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)NguyenHue
The Socialist Republic of Vietnam they are considered common citizens, but in the eyes of the Vietnamese Nationalist Patriots of the traditions of the monarchy the Royal Family they are hight respected.
-Link: Emperor Bao Dai and Princess Monique Vinh Thuy visit Cao Dai Temple
-- Vietnamese People respect Prince Buu Chanh
--
--
Prince Buu Chanh is a Leader among Vietnamese, he has traveled to the United Kingdom and spoke at the House of Commons.
--
--
These photographs are not fake nor is the heart and the pride the Vietnamese Nationalist for a Constitutional Monarchy to protect the traditions, religious rights, minorities, and freedom for Vietnam.--Jimmyvanthach 20:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Pointless
Unless you are now claiming to have actually taken a vote of the entire Vietnamese exile community, your assertions are purely speculative and mean absolutely nothing. If the Nguyen were so popular the people would never have overthrown them and embraced Ho Chi Minh. The Nguyen were not all bad, but they were too associated with the French; they collaborated with the invaders, first the French, later Japan and then the French again and tried to do the same with America. That is not something to endear them to the people. NguyenHue 01:55, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)NguyenHue
- Feel free to continue this discussion if you want, but be aware that Jimmyvanthach will no longer be editing this article or any similar article, due to a recent arbitration decision. The ban doesn't apply to Talk pages, though. ←Hob 04:09, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
Since no-one has contributed to this discussion since November, I have removed the "factual accuracy dispute" tag. It seems that the only matter in dispute at this article was whether Bao Dai's son should be called a Crown Prince or not. I take the view that since Vietnam has been a republic (or two republics) for nearly 50 years, it cannot have a Crown Prince. I have therefore removed both the tag and the phrase "Crown Prince." I hope everyone is happy with that. Adam 12:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)