Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/État québécois

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep. Keep 11 / Merge 7 / Delete 5. Delete and merges (2), but counted as either delete OR merge. Merging requires to save the page history, so merging is really merge and redirect. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:17, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

État québécois[edit]

This article is meaningless. There is no such thing as an "L'État québécois" (Quebec State). There is only Quebec, a Province in the Country of Canada.

Submitted by JillandJack, (who self-admittedly got stuck with some of the VfD steps). --Death phoenix 18:36, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Comment: This subject matter seems notable enough, but I don't know enough about Quebec (ie, I don't live there) to be able to verify if this term is in common use by the Québécois. If someone can tell me that this finds common use, I will change my vote to Keep and cleanup to remove some of the POV. Conversely, if this term isn't commonly used, I will change my vote to Delete. --Deathphoenix 18:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I did neither (see below). --Death phoenix 20:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If there's "no such thing as an 'L'État québécois'", only the "Province in the Country of Canada," why are there over 800 uses of "État québécois" on the websites of that same Quebec provincial government? (25200 uses on the Web as a whole, which is very high for a French Canadian topic.) This nomination strikes me as being based on a POV of Canadian nationalism/Quebec federalism, which I agree with completely in my personal life, but would never seek to press on a neutral point of view encyclopedia by deleting a valid or potentially valid article. ~~Strongest~~ keep, and cleanup as necessary. Samaritan 18:56, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- From strongest keep to a normal keep. The way the nomination was put got my back up. Also, I fixed my broken google links. Samaritan 00:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - Yes, the proposer's wording seems to reflect a strident partisan federalist agenda, which I don't share. It's a shame it was worded this way, insisting on "province". -- Curps 01:58, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Do a search for just "Quebec" at gouv.qc.ca... you get 663,000 hits. It's a big website, with tons of obscure policy papers and bureaucratic forms online. Just 800 hits for "état québécois" on that site? That's nothing, insignificant. -- Curps 01:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The term has no official standing whatsoever and has never been officially used (or even commonly used) even by the previous sovereignist governments. You are being quite misleading: if the term is used within http://www.gouv.qc.ca/ (official Quebec government website) at all, it's only buried several levels deep within obscure documents and position papers, in places that you could only reach by using the "Search" box, never by clicking on links from the home page to any commonly viewed page. Go to the home page, go to "Accueil" → "Portrait du Québec" → "Politique" → "Institutions politiques", the term is nowhere to be found: it's simply "Le Québec". Same with the tourism portal http://www.bonjourquebec.com/ . Even the Parti Québécois website at http://www.pq.org/ nearly always sticks to "le Québec". -- Curps 00:40, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - I didn't suggest anything else. I don't think being on a main page is necessary for a phrase in political discourse, with complicated enough suggestions and implications, to merit a short article discussing its history and usage. Samaritan 00:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    - But the phrase is not used in discourse. It's a bureaucratic "officialese" term that is not even official or widely used by officials (even sovereignist officials). Most people simply get around the "province" issue by saying "Quebec" or "le Québec". -- Curps 01:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep, cleanup as necessary, per Samaritan. Kappa 19:05, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete and merge. "The Quebecois State" is propogandic terminology whipped up by the PQ with no legislative basis. Commentary on this usage belongs in the main Quebec article, not as an entity in an of itself. NPOV is a two-way street. -The Tom 19:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet sits happily by, and everyone would agree it's less encyclopedic, more propagandistic, has no grounding in truth whatsoever, was used exclusively as a joke, and only during one election, and has more obvious merger targets in Ontario general election, 2003 and/or Dalton McGuinty. It would be a travesty if this subject were deleted, Quebec is far too general for it to be discussed fully, and no other subject I can think of is closely enough related. (Note also that the current Quebec Liberal Party government is strongly federalist, but retains hundreds of pages using this term in their gouv.qc.ca webspace.) Samaritan 22:29, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - "No grounding in truth whatsoever"? You're missing the point, have you actually read that article? That kitten-eater article is not about the factual truth over whether anyone eats kittens, or propagandistic POV political advocacy; it's simply an article about how some dumb practical joke backfired during a local political campaign. Likely too obscure for Wikipedia but I can't be bothered to propose it for deletion. In any case, what's the relevance? -- Curps 00:57, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    - Comment: Not to mention that it was a huge thing in the '03 Ontario election. I don't know if that entire incident made or broke the Tory's chances, but it was a huge factor in getting McGuinty the extra votes. --Death phoenix 03:04, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - What information would be suppressed by deleting this page? When you clean up the POV in État québécois, you have only a sentence or two of actual information, which could easily be fit into Quebec sovereignty movement (and be seen by more people there, actually). Again you are being misleading about http://gouv.qc.ca/ ... every major page there simply refers to "le Québec", and "État québécois" can be found only buried several levels deep in obscure documents... and this has been true during previous sovereignist governments just as much as today with a federalist government in office. -- Curps 01:00, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep and strong clean-up. There seems to be evidence that the concept exists and that it is note-worthy enough for a Wikipedia article. I struggle with this article because its tone is propagandistic. The problem is that the concept itself is a propaganda concept, and I'm not sure how to write an NPOV article about a propaganda concept. perhaps someone can try to neutralise the article before we reach a conclusion on the VfD? Kevintoronto 19:15, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete, combination of polemics and duplicated content. Unhelpful. Wyss 19:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Merge into Quebec and redirect. Let the editors of Quebec work together to present a neutral and balanced article. This is yet another example of the recent tendency to break out articles in order to allow presentation of a specific point of view. If Province du Québec and État québécois are not the same subject seen from two different points of view, what are they? Dpbsmith (talk) 19:37, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Merge into Quebec and redirect. Dpbsmith makes a good point about breakaway articles used to present a POV. I was going to recommend no redirect (I don't fully agree with redirecting a POV title to an NPOV article), but then I realise that not redirecting would mean losing the history. --Death phoenix 20:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete or merge as only a sentence or two into Quebec sovereignty movement or Quebec. This term is never used in English, and if kept would have to be suitably renamed; but I know of no such commonly or even occasionally used English term. -- Curps 21:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Would you agree to delete jihad (or, at best, merge to holy war or struggle?) Or move Taliban to, uh, Students of Islam (Afghan movement)? Closer to this, Parti Québécois and Bloc Québécois obviously need to go, and since they too don't have any commonly or even occasionally used English terms for them, they'd have to be deleted or merged to Quebec or something. We can and do discuss non-English language political discourse in English under non-English titles! If Wikipedia has a policy against loanwords in titles, please point me to it? We're giving this POV deletion proposal too much credit by focusing on red herrings. Samaritan 22:29, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - "Jihad" and "Taliban" are commonly used in English; these are the English terms. In fact, they are now English words. Similarly, "Parti Québécois" and "Bloc Quebecois" are the only English terms for these political parties; they have no other English names. These names are very commonly used in English-language media in Canada and Quebec, as Google shows. However, "État québécois" is not used at all in English, even in Canada or Quebec (as Google shows). This is not a loanword in English; it is simply never used in English, even among political scientists and other specialists. Occasionally you find use of "Quebec State" or "State of Quebec", but nearly always only as literal translations of those French documents that use them; native English documents or articles originally written in English essentially never use them. The term also has no official standing; the Quebec government website http://www.gouv.qc.ca/ does not use it, even in pages that describe Quebec political institutions in French (such as [1] and subpages). And finally, simply read the État québécois article... what information does it actually contain? Other than POV advocacy, it merely informs us that some (not all) francophones in Quebec would prefer to use this term... why could this information not be incorporated into a sentence or two in Quebec or Quebec sovereignty movement? Why puff this up into an entire article? And by the way, it seems a much more common way to get around the P-word ("province") is simply to refer to "Quebec" (or "le Québec" in French), plain and simple. -- Curps 00:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    - I fixed my broken google links above, showing over eight hundred hits for the term at gouv.qc.ca. I'm sorry. Samaritan 00:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      - And not a single one accessible by drilling down and clicking links starting at the main page, I'd bet. Contrast with http://www.elysee.fr/ (President of France's website)... the word "République" is used everywhere, beginning at the home page. -- Curps 01:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      - What's more, if you search for just "Quebec" at gouv.qc.ca... you get 663,000 hits. It's a big website, with tons of obscure policy papers and bureaucratic forms online. So a mere 800 hits for "état québécois" on this enormous website actually weakens your position rather than strengthening it. -- Curps 01:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      - What's more, how many of your Google hits actually refer to the subject of the État québécois article? In French, it's common to use the word "état" where English would use "federal government", for instance "les relations entre l'État et les citoyens" would be idiomatic French for what in English would probably be phrased as "relations between the federal government and its citizens". In other words, "l'état québécois" in most contexts would properly be translated as "the Quebec government" and would not have the meaning of "Republic of Quebec" or "State of Quebec". -- Curps 01:33, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Note: The user who proposed this for deletion has ~~apparently~~ allegedly (I haven't followed up on the details) also been on a POV-tagging binge. See the section "User:JillandJack and NPOV disputes" on the Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board. Samaritan 22:37, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) (strikethrough/clarification Samaritan 23:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC). I spoke too strongly, to my discredit.)
Keep Spinboy 22:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cleanup and keep. Notable, encyclopedic, interesting and useful. --Centauri 00:39, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Comment. Imagine an article called State of Puerto Rico or Estado de Puerto Rico. And imagine that that article consists of nothing but POV advocacy for the use of the term "Estado de Puerto Rico" because some people find the term "commonwealth" humiliating and colonial, and because Puerto Rico might someday become a US state or independent state. Would there be any reason for such an article to exist, any reason why that information could not be incorporated into a sentence or two within Puerto Rico itself? For those of you who have no familiarity with Canadian or Quebec politics, you could simply base your vote on whether you would vote to keep an Estado de Puerto Rico article. -- Curps 01:00, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete, POV political. This term is rarely used. Mention of this can be made in the main Quebec article but as it stands this doesnt warrant having an article on its own. Megan1967 01:27, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I took note of this some months back. The user who originally created it, Liberlogos, also undertook widespread edits to direct "Canadian province of Quebec" references to this article instead; these were reverted by Mathieugp as POV. I must note, however, that a term which originates with Jean Lesage cannot be viewed as solely a subtopic of Quebec sovereignism, as Lesage was not connected to that movement in any significant way. If a merge and redirect is deemed necessary, Quebec nationalism (which is not the same thing, as one can be simultaneously a Quebec nationalist and a federalist) is the only appropriate redirect. However, my own vote on the subject is to keep, as the term does have currency in Quebec politics whether we like it or not. Bearcat 01:33, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Jean Lesage was in power four decades ago. It's not a matter of liking it or not, in current use, the term does not have much currency in Quebec politics or daily speech. Note Samaritan's 800 hits are almost negligible in a government website http://www.gouv.qc.ca/ that has more than 660,000 pages. -- Curps 01:50, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - How long ago he was in power isn't relevant to the statement I made, which is that he wasn't connected to the political movement that some people want to redirect this to. If it's to be redirected, it has to go to Quebec nationalism or to Lesage himself; it can't go to Quebec sovereignty movement, because it doesn't come from that movement. Bearcat 01:56, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    - Redirect to Quebec nationalism instead of Quebec sovereignty movement would be fine. -- Curps 02:00, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      - Oh, and just for the record, Samaritan's 25,000 hits for the term on Google say everything that needs to be said about its currency in Quebec. You've disputed the significance of the 800 government hits, but you haven't even touched the vastly more telling number. Bearcat 03:17, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        Well, I have touched on the fact that most of these cases are used in contexts where the usual English translation would be expressed idiomatically as "government of Quebec" rather than "State of Quebec". In other words, it's simply a way of referring to the government, judiciary, civil service and state apparatus as an overall institution, slightly more non-partisan than "gouvernement" since the latter could also be used to refer to a particular governing party in power, or just to the executive/legislative branch. In other words, most of these hits are not about the topic of the État québécois article. -- Curps 03:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        
        The other problem which you have not touched on is that all these hits are in French. Unlike Bloc Québécois and Parti Québécois, the term "état québécois" is simply never used in English, as shown by Google (even by political science specialists, and even in English language media in Quebec where use of untranslated French terms is not unusual). So if kept, the article would properly be moved to Quebec State. -- Curps 03:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        There are dozens of articles on Wikipedia where a foreign-language phrase which isn't used in English, but whose literal translation would distort the article's context and encyclopedic value, are titled with the original foreign language phrase. See eg. Tiocfaidh ár lá, Céad míle fáilte, Arbeit macht frei, Jedem das Seine, Amaya o los vascos en el siglo VIII, Inglés de escalerilla, Fiesta patronal, Dicionário Aurélio, etc. This is neither unprecedented nor, in and of itself, invalid as long as the article is written in English. Bearcat 03:13, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep and cleanup. —Mar·ka·ci:2005-02-9 01:47 Z
Delete. This designation for Quebec is part of the vision of the future put forward by Quebec nationalists. It perhaps merits a mention in that article. A separate article on the designation is either going to be no more than a couple of sentences, or more likely yet another recap of the Quebec nationalist point of view in the guise of explaining the term. (Which is what the article is now.) We don't need multiple articles in the Wikipedia that go over the same basic ground. --BM 02:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep. The basic points of the article are neither POV nor propagandistic -- they simply chronicle the history of an idiom which (for good or ill) is common currency in Quebec. If some parts of the article seem biased or insulting, the correct course of action is to *fix* them, not to delete the entire article. (Also note that User:JillAndJack has inserted POV tags on several articles having to do with Quebec nationalism in the last day or so. He (She? They?) seem/s to be taking issue with pages that depict Quebec nationalism in favourable terms, or cast ill aspersions on British colonial rule. It looks as though someone's grinding an axe ...) CJCurrie 02:45, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete. I'm with Curps. Denni ☯ 04:29, 2005 Feb 9 (UTC)
Merge with redirect to Politics of Quebec, or even the Quebec main article. The existence of this term and information on its origins are quite relevant—it's what the government calls itself. I note that one of the early links in the Québec government Googling above is an open letter from the Premier of Québec (Jean Charest, also a federalist), and he seems to use l'État québécois as equivalent to the English phrase 'government of Québec'. (Letter in English and French). Since Google searches of the Québec government site seem popular, I should note that the term Province du Québec garners only 39 hits [2]. I'd say that the article should be kept (and I'd be okay with that) but it would remain forever stubby unless filled out with unnecessary POV federalist and separatist ranting. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 05:41, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep. Concur with sentiments CJCurrie expressed. ElBenevolente 07:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep. Who cares if it exists or not, if it's a notable term? Everyking 08:29, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Merge relevant into relevant page about quebec nationalism and delete (and please state who those "some people" are)- Skysmith 10:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- If you mean my "some people", I meant the people right on this very page who proposed redirecting to "Quebec sovereignty movement". Bearcat 22:08, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  - I was referring to "some people" in the first paragaph of the article - Skysmith 10:04, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete and merge. As we are the English Wikipedia and we have a good English phrase in common use we should use it and include any useful material from this article in it or Quebec nationalism. If the constitutional status of Quebec changes we can review the issue then. Capitalistroadster 10:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Keep, concurring with Samaritan and CJCurrie. --Circeus 18:10, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
Delete, The expression La province de Québec has indeed fallen out of fashion some 45 years ago. In all Quebec official documents, Quebec is Le Québec, the province is L'État québécois (and yes, a province is indeed a state attached to some other) and the government is the Governement du Québec. This can be easily verified online at www.gouv.qc.ca. Nevertheless, this article has no use and I suggested its deletion to its author a while ago because I felft this was bad exemple of "everythingism". In other words, there is not enough matter to cover here and I don't think the use of a term that is only used in French anyways deserves a full article inside Wikipedia. -- Mathieugp 13:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.