Talk:Michael Crichton/Archive 1

This article is not a place for an Edit War and dispute on science.

I came to this article looking for info on Michael Crichton, NOT to find an edit war between two people with opposing views on Global Warming.

It does not matter what peoples opinions are, this is not the sort of activity I expect to find on wikipedia. I suggest that this article should be locked from editing to certian users.

Philcluff (talk) 00:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Unattributed POV

However, Crichton's expertise to discuss these points is not particularly obvious, and many of his examples are poor. (emphasis added for talk page)

I haven't read the entire critique of Crichton's "idea" about global warming, but if the start is any indicator then I think it should just be reverted. Wikipedia itself should not be saying that "his examples are poor". That's SOMEBODY's point of view, and we should:

1. identify the person holding that POV; and,
2. attribute that POV to the person, as opposed to declaring it outright

I'm guessing that it's Dr. C's point of view, but I'm going to revert first and "ask questions" afterward. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 15:33, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 18:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)) So have I. The statement that his examples are poor is justified by the subsequent discussion of them. MC is a novelist. Its not clear why anyone takes seriously his opinions on science, and why wiki should report them. Since it has, they need to be commented. You chose to chop before talk, so lets try a concrete example to discuss:

Within the nuclear winter section, Crichton examines an equation for the observations" as he claims. Within the nuclear winter section, Crichton examines an equation for the effects and asserts that "none of the variables can be determined. None at all". Which is odd, because the quantities involved as things such as warhead size, warhead yield and detonation height. All of

these can be given reasonable guesses to explore different scenarios.

That seems fair to me. C has grossly overstated his case for the invalidity of nuclear winter.

I think the section on "aliens caused global warming", should be a seperate artical, as are all his other works. Furthermore I think is important to avoid using biased terms, such as "obviously wrong", while at the same time not treating two uneaqual sides of an arguement as being equally credible.

(William M. Connolley 21:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)) It was a separate article but got put up on VFD (not by me, BTW) and got merged here instead of deleted. I would have preferred delete.

I edited (heavily) the critique of "Aliens Cause Global Warming". Portions of it were absurd, the idea that Crichton's expertise to discuss "junk science" "isn't immediately obvious" is laughable. Particularly since many of the examples he uses to make his point are related to medicine. Did the original author of that "hatchet job" forget that Crichton is a respected MD?

(William M. Connolley 17:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Yes you did edit it heavily - odd that you then marked the edit as minor. I've reverted it. Trying to assert that he has an extensive educational background in various scientific disciplines doesn't make sense. You cut out:

The section in question in a minor portion of the overall article - that's why I marked it as minor. As far as MC's background as a scientist goes, what exactly do you think anthropologists and doctors are? I'm reverting it back to the modified version as the original is rubbish. You want in fix it, then do so, but the first draft is worthless. It is a petulant tantrum, not an objective analysis.--JonGwynne 21:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 00:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Its minor is it? That would explain why you don't really mind if the text is one way or another, yes? Come on, be honest. Anything you care enough about to keep reverting isn't minor.

It was a minor revision because it was a minor portion of the overall article. Understand now?

(William M. Connolley 10:50, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) You were wrong to mark a large controversial edit as minor.

Within the nuclear winter section, Crichton examines an equation for the effects and asserts that, "none of the variables can be determined. None at all." Which is odd, because the quantities involved as things such as warhead size, warhead yield and detonation height. All of these can be given reasonable guesses to explore different scenarios.

Kindly explain why, other than embarrassement for C.

I cut it because it is nonsense. Various warhead yields (who cares how physically big a warhead is?) are data controlled exclusively by the military - the only information publically available is that which the military decides to release to the public - and none of it is independently verifiable. There is no reason to assume that the information about the number of warheads in existance, or their yield is accurate - the military has every reason to be coy and even deceptive about those data. Even they are accurate, there is no way to know how many would be successfully launched in the event of a nuclear exchange. Even if there was, there would be no way to know what their targets would be. Even if there was, there is no way to know how many would reach those targets. Even if there was, there would be no way to know where they would be detonated. As Crichton says, rather pointedly in his essay: "The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. And guesses-just so we're clear-are merely expressions of prejudice"--JonGwynne 21:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 00:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) You're deliberately underplaying the amount of info available, now and then. C's "none at all" is clearly unreasonable: pure rhetoric: no science.

Feel free to add references to the info that is available and we'll see. In the meantime, Crichton's point (that none of the information required to fill in the equation is available) remains valid. It isn't "clearly unreasonable".

Also, is it possible that there is more than one version of this lecture extant? I ask because several of the things the original author wrote about the piece didn't seem to have any connection with it. The points Crichton made were radically different from those the critic attributed to him. Several things the critic claims Crichton mentioned (e.g. that there is proof the theory of Nuclear Winter has been disproven, that Chrichton praised Fred Singer or that Crichton is attempting to disprove the theory of Global Warming) either don't show up in the piece or are flatly contradicted by Crichton's statements.--JonGwynne 17:03, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 17:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)) The criticisms I put in are based on the lecture that is linked to the page.

Then explain where C. refers to Fred Singer - his name is mentioned nowhere in the text.

(William M. Connolley 00:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Check the edit history. I never mentioned Singer. That was noted lefto Ed Poor - why not go complain to him about his inaccuracy, if you feel so inclined.

He also never claims the theory of Nuclear Winter has been (your quotes) 'refuted by "definitive, reproducible observations"'. You also completely missed the point of his lecture - that science has been gradually assigned a secondary role to validate people's prejudices rather than discover facts. Thus, his references to Drake's Equation, Nuclear Winter and the alleged dangers of second-hand smoke are exactly on point. This is all "junk-science". BTW, I notice that you indulge is exactly the sort of "concensus science" that Crichton warns about when you say (without supporting evidence) "although tobacco companies vigourously denied the effects of second hand smoke, the dangers are now well recognised".--JonGwynne 21:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 00:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) You're bitching about the text that Ed Poor wrote.

Apparently you agree with his assessment since you restored his version rather than restoring your own or editing my modifications. Still, it is academic at this point since someone else has come along and deleted the reference to the lecture competely. I restored a basic version that I hope will be acceptable to everyone.

Even if something is blatantly wrong, Wikipedia should only note controversy over it, not criticize the thing itself. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and it does not and should not take sides in debates. Only where there is no serious debate (e.g., evolution, where no serious scientist says it didn't happen; quite a few serious scientists argue about global warming and second-hand smoke, whether or not they're in the minority) should something be stated as fact. Even then, if there's substantial but non-serious disagreement (e.g., evolution), that should be noted in a non-condescending if secondary manner.

By the way, the "minor edit" flag is only to be used for things like correcting typos, grammar, diction, formatting, etc. No substantive change to the content of an article, no matter how small, should be flagged as "minor". See Wikipedia:Minor edit. —Simetrical (talk) 03:19, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Religious views?

Watching re-runs of the early seasons of ER, it struck me that the series is very secular for a major US TV show. It seems like any sort of religious feeling is restricted to the black characters (and one ambiguous and rather jarring scene involving Lewis wandering into a church). We have Mark Greene as an "out" atheist, Ross is lapsed, Carter and Weaver are at the very least agnostic, and quite likely atheist, Romano is probably atheist, and of course Corday is. Is this reflective of Crichton's own views? Can we add him to the "list of famous atheists"? Bonalaw 09:45, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That does deserve attention. I'll see if I can't find information online. --DUc0N 21:31, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've never watched EW, but based on Crichton's novels, of which I've read many (but not all), he does come across as an atheist. So why wouldn't the show reflect that, the same way (most of) his novels do? Especially given that the protagonists are usually highly educated in the technical or scientific field? --Peter Knutsen (talk) 21:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No, because of WP:OR and WP:BIO you have to find a source where either, he confirms he is an atheist, or a very respectable source that claims this. Otherwise, we are not allowed to speculate from his novels. Brusegadi (talk) 06:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

Some of the text in this article debating Dr Crichton's views on global warming (among other things) are worded in a poor way. While these points deserve addressing, it needs to be done in a way that respects NPOV.

(William M. Connolley 23:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I can live with your rewording. But NPOV doesn't mean being weaselly. If someone says something flatly untrue (as C did, about the models) its entirely in order to point that out.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/society.html and http://quinnell.us/religion/famous/cd.html says he is and http://www.adherents.com/people/pc/Michael_Crichton.html says he is not.

Ad Hominem

"However, Crichton's expertise to discuss these points is not particularly obvious"

What would qualify as sufficient expertise? He has an M.D. from Harvard Medical School.

(William M. Connolley 19:01, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Which would appear to be quite irrelevant to most of his stuff. It might be of use on the P fever bit, I suppose.

That wasn't the only health-related issue Crichton mentioned. Are you SURE you read the same version of his lecture that is displayed in the link in the article? Oh, BTW, Paul Erlich is an etmologist - yet that doesn't stop him talking out of his ass about issues of population. Carl Sagan is an astronomer and yet you apparently have no problems with him claiming to speak with authority on the subject of climatology. Couldn't it be said about both these men that their "expertise to discuss these points is not particularly obvious"?--JonGwynne 21:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Paul Erlich is an etmologist - yet that doesn't stop him talking out of his ass about issues of population." And all of what he says is bullshit. The Club of Rome models don't take account of technological change. Trekphiler 10:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 00:07, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I don't recall defending or in any way mentioning PE. Why are you bringing him into this?

Only because you restored the version which holds both men out as experts in fields completely unrelated to that which they formally studied. Are you saying you agree with me that Erlich has no credibility on matters of overpopulation?

He is clearly (at least to me) both intelligent and educated.

(William M. Connolley 19:01, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Eductaed in general, yes. About the subjects he discusses, no. He is wilfully ignorant.

While I'm a little late on this your degrees are in Mathematics correct? Dr. Crichton has more education in the physical sciences than you do. Which would explain his far greater appreciation of the scientific method. Yet you all him willfully ignorant. In violation of the personal attack rules.GTTofAK 18:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

He has an interest in the subject such that he has made the effort to both research and think about it.

(William M. Connolley 19:01, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I can't understand how you can say that. About GW, C says No longer are models judged by how well they reproduce data from the real world.. This is nonsense. Either he hasn't bothered looking (quite likely IMHO) or... errr... dunno. See http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/309.htm for a widely available summary of research on the subject. Its from the 2001 IPCC report. Its impossible that C can have failed to have heard of it.

What is more likely is that he's heard of it and read it completely. It openly admits some of the shortcomings in the models they're using and glosses over more serious ones. As Crichton points out in his lecture, no one has managed to yet come up with a model that can predict the weather 12 hours in advance with absolute certainty - yet they're asking us to take it on faith that predictions can be made with absolute accurance a century into the future? Nonsense. You're obviously a Global Warming partisan and that's fine but don't go trying to impose your faith on those of us who still waiting for proof.

Isn't that like saying insurance companies should not use statistical data because individual fate remains quite unpredictable?

I can see arguing with his article, but the question of his qualialifications seems to me to be ad hominem. --Stevenschulman 18:38, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 19:01, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)) As far as I can see, C's opinions on these subjects is of no interest and shouldn't be in wiki. When they were on their own page they were vfd'd and (slightly oddly IMHO) although they got a majority for delete, they were merged here instead. So we're stuck with them. As such, it seems fair to label them for what they are - just his personal opinion. Otherwise people might, for example, make the mistake of thinking he was in some way qualified professionally.

He is qualified professionally, he was educated and qualified as a scientists. As such, he is certainly equipped to discuss the abuse of science by politicians and marketing executives.

"As far as I can see, C's opinions on these subjects is of no interest and shouldn't be in wiki." They absolutely should be in wiki, on a page that deals with the life and opinions of Michael Crichton.

"So we're stuck with them. As such, it seems fair to label them for what they are - just his personal opinion." They're absolutely his personal opinion, and should clearly be labeled as such. A wording that says something like "Crichton spoke about the junk science of global warming" should be edited, because it's implying that global warming is in fact junk science, but "he expressed his views of the dangers of consensus science and junk science . . . with regard to popular but disputed theories" makes it perfectly clear that those are his views alone. What we absolutely should not do is label the views as false when they are, in fact, held by some qualified scientists. It's not only idiots and ignoramuses who don't believe in anthropogenic global warming, or global warming altogether. —Simetrical (talk) 03:28, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know how this fits into C's views but some of you seem to be missing the point. Very few scientists are saying they're certain global warming is going to destroy the earth and ever fewer believe they're certain. What they're saying is we have evidence it is occuring and if we're right, we're probably in deep shit. We also believe taking certain actions we may be able to prevent or at least slow it. Given the evidence and the risks, we believe we should take these actions to prevent it occuring. They're also saying we believe the problems that these actions bring are minor in comparison to the risks if we don't take them. Nil Einne 18:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

But you sure do get a lot of folks who are absolutely certain that the earth is not warming, and that if it is warming it's from natural causes, and anyway it will be beneficial not harmful, and there's nothing we can do about it, and if we could it would be more expensive than letting it happen, and anyway it's all some kind of plot by socialists and/or scientists. Since they're absolutely certain, and as you say very few scientists are absolutely certain it's something that should be stopped, then obviously the folks who are absolutely certain we shouldn't do anything win. Gzuckier 17:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

ACGW removed entirely

(William M. Connolley 10:50, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I've removed ACGW entirely (and hence the "ideas" section). The stripped-down version is worthless. I'm not sure removing it is right, though - opinions?

Reference to ACGW should not be removed - so I replaced it. It is a valid part of any discussion of Crichton's body of work. Why do you believe "the stripped-down version is worthless"? It is simply a non-judgemental mention of the ACGW lecture and a link to it for anyone who wants to learn more about it. I agree that this entry isn't the best place to debate the relative merits of the talk in question, but it absolutely the right place to point out its existence and provide a link to it. Personally, I think you're just angry because it challenges (and rightfully so) the validity of an unproven theory in which you evidently have a great deal of faith. Based on your writings here, you're clearly an advocate for one of the many possible interpretations of research into possible climate change. Does it really bother you that someone would have the nerve to question the science underlying the conclusions to which some people have some in this field? Isn't the whole point of science to challenge assumptions and force people to prove them by testing their claims?--JonGwynne 23:58, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 00:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Crichton makes no attempt to engage with the science at all. Try http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=76

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I am replacing the deceptive version with a neutral one.--JonGwynne 01:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Editing/Reversion War

So are we going to discuss this and arrive at a compromise that suits everyone, or is this just going to continue until the wikipedia server fills up with revisions? Personally, I think there should just be a short, objective description of the lecture along with the link and then whoever wants to read for themselves can draw their own conclusions. William Connolley and Lumidek should both consider chilling out a bit - but that's just my opinion.--JonGwynne 02:04, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion, you've made a great job, Job - which I appreciate especially because you are a native speaker who can write well. Thank you! Do I understand correctly that you as a neutral party view this new version of yours as legitimate? I surrender with the word "controversial", that was reinserted, and with some missing witty sections about the lecture - like the predictions of horses and horseshits in 1900 when they did not know computers, DNA, HTML, ... (a list of 100 things follows). I am curious whether William is gonna reinsert his bizarre belief that the "scientific consensus" that criticized continental drift for 50 years was correct! Did you lose your mind entirely, William? It seems to me that Crichton is talking kind of exactly about you - you seem to believe that if you agree about something with 100 of your left-wing friends, it's more than if Lumidek, Lomborg, Lindzen, or Crichton gives a single factual argument? --Lumidek 02:15, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. To answer your question, I'm still not completely happy with this new version - mostly because I think it is too long. This lecture isn't a major part of Crichton's career and many of his fans probably haven't even heard of it. Though, I haven't read his latest book - he might mention in there. I ditched the references to the horse pollution and the long list of modern inventions that a person of 1900 wouldn't recognize simply because they were minor points in his overall argument. I agree with you that William is probably one of what Crichton would consider The Enemy or Science - a proponent of "concensus science" and popular assumptions who responds emotionally instead of rationally when his beliefs are challenged. If you read his entries, you can see that he is a strong believer in the theory of global warming and simply won't accept that what he sees as solid is, in fact, a "house of cards". I don't know about you guys but I'm old enough to remember when "global cooling" was the big boogeyman that pseudo-scientists like Erlich were warning us about. The thing would probably drive William the most crazy is that I am what most people apparently consider a "leftist".  ;-> BTW, William, in case you look in, I believe that we should encourage the use of bio-diesel and other non-fossil fuels to replace the widespread use of petroleum and coal not because I believe their use has been proven to be causing climate-change (because it hasn't) but because doing so would be of enormous economic, social and political benefit to the world (I'll elaborate if you need me to) and because the global-warming alarmists might be right. Just because they haven't proven their theory doesn't mean that I believe they're wrong, just that they've not yet proven that they're right. Understand the difference?--JonGwynne 03:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jon, very interesting remarks. Yes, I agree that the lecture is not the punch line of his career, certainly not if counted in dollars. :-) Yes, we've had some exchanges about the global warming with William. He has many more about this issue because it is his issue, I have many more about physics which is my subject - William also partly participates in physics polemics. Although he's a physics outsider, I would say that typically he's on the correct side. ;-) Finally: yes, there can be differences on the left wing. (Alan Sokal who is also left-wing made his hoax exactly because he was upset about the other, postmodernist leftists who undermined the strength of the Left in his opinion.) There are also differences on the right wing where John McCain often puts himself, despite his William-like support for all statements of the global warming theory. This climate is mostly a left-right debate, but not exactly. At any rate, it is mostly a political debate. Because of Crichton's comments on continental drift and William's answer, last night I studied all these things and precontinents for many hours; amazing stuf.. Happy New Year! --Lumidek 13:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 22:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Well, L and JG seem to be getting on fine, which is real nice. Now lets try to address the blatant POV they put into the article...

It's a description of his speech. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

MC isn't a well-credentialled scientist. He is a writer of sci-fi potboilers. But we can see this from what he has written, we don't need to know his background. Because...

I've already tried to explain you that the price of these insults is equal the price of human excrements. You're obviously unable to understand it - probably because your thinking has the same value, William. ;-) It's not important whether he's paid as a scientist: what is more important is that he has a much more honest scientific and balanced approach than you, he knows more about the subject than you, and his opinions and findings about the climate are more influential than yours by several orders of magnitude, William. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And let's stop to remark about how well William is making Dr. Crichton's point for him: that those who question the questionable science underlying certain popular but scientifically unsupported theories are subject to personal attacks. Someone who questioned a legitimate scientific proof would simply be told "You're wrong and here's where you can find proof that you're wrong - if you care". Only those who question things that haven't been proven are told "You're stupid, you're worthless, you're evil, you don't know enough to question us, etc"... "science fiction 'potboilers'" indeed. Could William be any more condescending or sactimonious?--JonGwynne 16:54, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why exactly has MC's dismissal of nuclear winter modelling Within the nuclear winter section, Crichton examines an equation for the effects and asserts that, "none of the variables can be determined. None at all." Which is odd, because the quantities involved as things such as warhead size, warhead yield and detonation height. All of these can be given reasonable guesses to explore different scenarios. been deemed to be not worth inclusion? Because, presumably, it shows your hero (*why* would anyone want to make MC their hero?) in a poor light.

Be sure that you have absolutely no idea what's the size of my warhead that I prepared for you. :-) So try to estimate, estimate, and keep on inventing insults against Crichton only between your idiotic friends at climatereal.org. ;-) Wikipedia is meant to have a slightly higher quality than what you seem to be able to offer. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Crichton's claim isn't "odd" at all. He's right. None of the variables can be determined. They can only be guessed at - which was Crichton's original point.--JonGwynne 11:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On continental drift, I had: But again, Crichton's views are rather one sided. Continental drift was vigourously debated. One of the main problems with Wegener's theory was that he believed that the continents "plowed" through the rocks of the ocean basins. Most geologists did not believe that this could be possible. They were right.

They were NOT right. Alfred Wegener was a true hero of geology. He was the same gift for geology like what Hubble was for the Universe or Darwin for the species. All three guys showed that the "object" studied by the scientific field was evolving, despite a huge incorrect prejudice held by virtually everyone else, and if you don't understand it even in 2004, I can only express my deep compassion. He was right that the plates - well, he was saying "continents" - move relatively to one another. When they collide, they must "plow" the stuff on the rift, and he just did not know what were the forces that did it. We don't know exactly what these forces (well, the currents blablabla) are even today! Nothing drastic have really changed. It's just that the position of the morons who criticized Wegener became so undefendable that the critics have disappeared - except for you, of course. ;-) --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Only the accumulation of new evidence and theory made Wegener's hypothesis tenable..

It's absolutely irrelevant in science whether some weak scientists find Wegener's theory "tenable" or not. I don't care much what they believed. They were wrong, they were irrelevant, and they did much less for Earth science than Wegener. The important thing is that the theory is true. Its all major points - and many minor points - are true and they were true already in the early 20th century. The geologists that were worst than Wegener 10 times needed 50 more years to understand the depth and the truth of Wegener's ideas, and Earth scientists (?) at your level obviously need at least 100 years. ;-) --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What I have written here is correct - despite L's incredulity.

What you wrote shows that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, what science is, what geology is, how it works, what is important, what is a revolution and what does it mean for a scientist to be unreasonably sure about something and why it is wrong. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, it does not say that W's opponents were right to oppose CD - but that his mechanism was wrong (it was).

He did not know exactly what the mechanism is - seafloor spreading is little bit better, but we STILL do not know what the mechanism really is and how to calculate the forces and speeds properly. This is a completely secondary question. The primary question is whether continental drift and Wegener were right, or whether the critics were right. The answer is definitely that Wegener was right. In fact, he was right even about many detailed maps of the supercontinents in the past. Only a person who does not know geology or an insane person could disagree with me (and with Crichton). Incidentally, it is so extremely easy to imagine that once the warming silliness is ruled out by observations or anything like that, you will also produce all these stupid and completely dishonest pseudojustifications they you were "right" after all. It won't matter. Other people will insist that people like you should be arrested because you wanted to cripple the whole world's economy - an economic crime worth trillions of dollars. It's like thousands of Saddam Hussains. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And his characterisation of model validation is somply wrong. Why will neither of you bother look at the vast literature on validation, as given by IPCC chapter ?8? I think it was, which clearly shows how little research C has actually done on the subject.

"Simply", not "somply". Obviously that the people who bevieve wrong things about the validity and validations of computer models also write wrong papers about it, is not it obvious? Your problem is that you're unable to think yourself and independently. The only thing you can do is to trust someone else - or literature. But that's not enough for a scientist. These computer models are a disease. Those people randomly write down hundreds of oversimplified models, and those who randomly happen to approximately agree with something in the past are the "winners" and these oversimplified models are used to extrapolate to the future. This is what is done and it is very stupid. It's like betting that if you won in the lottery once, you will be winning all the time. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for JG, if you really believe in global cooling, you need to look at my site http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/ and actually read some of the papers. Actually reading the facts instead of someone elses summary might just change your mind. And as tou you being left or right wing... who cares?

I think that global cooling was as much of junk science as global warming is today. I know that people like Stephen Schneider were proposing this crap in the 1970s. He was also one of the authors of the nuclear winter models. The junk science tends to be concentrated to a few hands. ;-) The only reason why I find the topic of global warming more important is that the advocates of this new hoax became much more powerful politically, and it must be stopped unless we want to destroy the principles of science and the progress of the whole civilization. --Lumidek 23:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Your're hopeless. Just take the time to *read* some of the stuff before talking about it. Global cooling wasn't poor science - it was science that *didn't occur*. You're read too many septic websites and too few climate papers. Go read the 1975 NAS report, or my listing (not a summary - a listing) of its conclusions. Ohhh... you never will. I'll paste them in here:

# Establish National climatic research program

1. Establish Climatic data analysis program, and new facilities, and studies of impact of climate on man
2. Develope Climatic index monitoring program
3. Establish Climatic modelling and applications program, and exploration of possible future climates using coupled GCMs
4. Adoption and development of International climatic research program
5. Development of International Palaeoclimatic data network
6. Learn how to spell "programme"

there, does that help? No calls for action. No panic. No worry about cooling (hint: one of them is a joke: can you tell which?)

New Year's Eve

The description of Crichton's speech without personal attacks and with more detailed list of the points he covered, and less frequent speculative critiques about every Crichton's point is more satisfactory, more balanced, and it fits the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia - and the rules of Wikipedia - better than William's version.

A special justification for William: there is consensus that your version is not good enough for Wikipedia. ;-) --Lumidek 23:30, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think we should go back to the shorter version. A detailed description of the speech doesn't really seem to be necessary since there is a link to it so anyone who is curious about it can read it for themselves. What do you think?--JonGwynne 11:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I can accept a shorter version, but I will never tolerate a version with ten independent lies and stupidities - like the version proposed by William. Some of the reasons are described below. --Lumidek 22:17, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Well that blows L's consensus, ho ho.

On Lumideks words

Let's start with the minor points: I assure you that "program" is a correct spelling in most of the world. You might try to live with the fact that the British already don't dictate the universal rules of English grammar and spelling.

Second. The predictions of global cooling were bad science, and if the current theories about global warming are better in any sense, this improvement may be explained by the fact that they were proposed 20 years later. I don't intend to waste more of my time with stupidities like global cooling.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You mean, you've lost the argument, but are too graceless to admit it. The scientific establishment *was not predicting global cooling*. The entire argument is a strawman. I've put a whole series of pages demonstrating this by direct quotes from actual papers. You've managed a bit of pointless invective.

Third. Your version of the comments about his speech is an unacceptable POV because of many reasons, for example the following:

• Crichton certainly does not "castigate" the scientific establishment - maybe the ecoterrorist establishment. Crichton defends the principles how science must be done in order to be science, and everyone who is a true scientist agrees with most of his points. I am pro-establishment, but I certainly support Crichton's points. In your blinded arrogance, you just think that the biased junk scientists like you are much more important than in reality - well, Osama bin Laden and many others have a similar mode of thinking.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Silly. Comparing your opponents to OBL is just a modern version of losing by Godwins law, which I hereby christen Connolleys law...

• Once again: the junk scientists and the scientists with a political agenda certainly do not represent scientific establishment. Maybe the scientific branch of the ecoterrorist political movements.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) "the junk scientists and the scientists with a political agenda certainly do not represent scientific establishment" ... so what? Why are you putting up strawmen?

• Your opinion that Crichton's expertise and arguments are poor and so forth is just a personal point of view of one person who thinks that he is a scientist, but other scientists among the Wikipedians believe that he is an a*s*ole. The comment would have to be either removed, or marked as a private opinion of William Connolley. But I don't think that Wikipedia should become an arena for random insults made by you and similar people.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You are hereby warned about no personal attacks. And the title of this sectin was another such, so I've changed it.

• Your criticism of Wegener's theories shows, once again, that you have zero knowledge about geology and its important concepts, and it would be very unreasonable if people with no knowledge about something were forming judgements of scientific concepts at Wikipedia.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You just can't read whats written, can you? Continental drift is correct: that much is now the consensus, and well supported. But when first proposed, it wasn't well supported, and indeed didn't work in the original version.

• It is not true that the negative effects of second hand smoke have been scientifically proved as an existing, measurable effect that goes beyond noise.

(William M. Connolley 23:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Silly.

• The comments about "scientific consensus" are human excrements meant to convert science into a totalitarian system, and they have absolutely no room in a serious scientific discussion, and certainly no room in a description of a speech. --Lumidek 22:15, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Environmentalism as a religion

The format of the replies of a colleague here called WC, [personal attack by L removed - WMC] reminds me of another talk by MC, namely "Environmentalism as a religion". [1] Well, it's not just about reminding; his approach to the questions is described there quite accurately. Should not this be also mentioned in the "Ideas" section? --Lumidek 00:15, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The reference to this speech was inappropriately removed. I have returned it with slight modifications intended to make it more neutral. I suspect that William will try to remove or revert it again as it seems he doesn't seem to tolerate viewpoints or facts that challenge his world view. But, with vigilance, we can keep this article accurate and unbiased.--JonGwynne 22:14, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Shorter text is not bad after all

Hi Jon, OK, hereby I surrender and endorse your supershort version of the description of MC's speeches. You are deleting your own work - I've recycled my text to my blog, at least, and it's fine with me to keep this short description.

William, are you satisfied if we now declare a consensus? :-) --Lumidek 00:21, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 18:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) The shorter version may be tolerable, though its dull and rather pointless. I wish all this had just disappeared when VFD'd. But in the (disappointing) absence of anyone else weighing in, I can't see any obvious other way to resolve this. I've added a neutrally-described link to the realclimate criticism. I've also qualified the religion bit and added his nice second-hand-smoke quote.

You say it is "dull and rather pointless"? Do please elaborate. Seriously, I took the quote out. If someone wants to read the speech, the link is there and they can read the whole thing, not just a selected quote.

(William M. Connolley 22:07, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Oho! You don't like the quote? Why not? Its not at all out of context. Do you perhaps dislike it because it makes him look silly?

I don't think it makes him look silly, but it is out of place in the article. As I said, if someone wants to read the piece, they can follow the link. There is no reason to quote it.--JonGwynne 22:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 22:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Seems in place to me. Its a nice quote, as it shows you a rough guide to his type of position. I've restored it.

And I've removed it again. There is no need to provide quotes since the entire position is available for anyone who wants to see it... via the link to the entire document. The purpose of quoting a piece is to give samples of it when the whole is unavailable. That is neither necessary nor appropriate in this case. Do you understand now?--JonGwynne 11:34, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 11:58, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)) I understand perfectly. You find the quote embarassing. But why? Crichton is quite open in his pushing this strange postiion - why do you have a problem with it?

I moved the link to the "external links" section since it is more appropriate for it to be there. Oh yeah, and I mentioned the fact that this is a open forum on a site with a definite advocacy position since I think this is relevant. I'd hate for someone to go to that link and think they were getting neutral commentary. Incidentally, several of the points made on that site are wrong but I don't see any way to address that here unless you have any thoughts on the subject.

(William M. Connolley 22:07, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You want to address them, start by spelling them out. "censoring" the link to the end is unacceptable. Advocating proper science is a problem for you?

Perhaps I'll visit the site and do just that.

(William M. Connolley 22:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) I won't be holding my breath. Feel free to present them here.

That would be a silly thing to so since the other users of that site wouldn't have a chance to see them.--JonGwynne 11:34, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 11:58, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)) I see. You see lots of points that are wrong but when challenged to put up, you can't.

Not "can't" but rather "choose not to here because this is an inappropriate forum". --JonGwynne 20:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In the meantime, your description of relocating the link to its proper place at the end of the article as "censorship" is... curious. Surely if I wanted to "censor" it, I would have deleted it. I didn't delete it, I simply moved it to a more appropriate location.--JonGwynne 22:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 22:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Nope, shuffling stuff to a less prominent place is the same, if lesser.

What on earth are you talking about? It isn't a "less prominent place" putting it with the other external links. In fact, it is a more prominent place.--JonGwynne 11:35, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 11:58, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)) What an odd thing to say. The comment on the piece belongs next to the piece.

No, it doesn't. It belongs with the rest of the links to external sites that refer to what other people have to say about Crichton. How odd that you would insist otherwise. Sounds to me like you just can't handle Critchton disagreeing with your fervid views on the subject of climate-change or second-hand smoke.

(William M. Connolley 20:39, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)) C is welcome to his views on second hand smoke, silly as they are. And your comment is incomprehensible: I simply included the quote from his speech on SH smoke, and made no attempt to attack it (of course we all know there is no need to attack it, its just silly as it stands, which is why you are so keen on removing it).

I don't grant your premise at all. I don't think the statement is silly - though you apparently do. It might be correct, it might be incorrect... but to call it "silly" is to betray your own feelings of indignation. You're getting emotional about facts, the sure sign of someone who knows, deep down, that the facts are not with him. People ridiculed Christopher Hitchens when he took on Mother Teresa and pointed out that the image many of the public had of her was nothing but a carefully crafted PR job designed to aid her fundraising activities. When he pointed out that she was using (and even exacerbating) the suffering of the poor to further her own personal adgenda, they didn't respond by saying: "you're wrong and here's why: ...", they responded by calling him names and saying that his arguments were silly because "everyone knows" that Mother Teresa isn't this corrupt, religious zealot selling indulgences to the wealthy dregs of humanity and to suggest otherwise was unthinkable. What they were really saying is that it simply wasn't appropriate to objectively examine this issue because even to question it would be wrong. How is that different from what the "true belivers" in global warming are saying? They're saying that because they have all agreed amongst themselves, that the time for debate is over. That's not the way science works.--JonGwynne 01:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let me try to explain it a different way. This isn't a site to debate the relative merits of Crichton's views but to provide objective descriptions of his body of work - which includes his speeches.--JonGwynne 01:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 20:39, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Descriptions. Yes. So why is removing a perfectly neutral quote (you do accept that the quote is neutral don't you?) helpful in describing his speech?

It isn't helpful because the whole of the speech is readily available. If there were no links available to the speech then that might be a different story, but there is a link available so anyone who wants to read the entire speech can do so. There is no need for a quote. Furthermore, it seems like your only motivation in offering the quote is to try to ridicule Crichton's position by playing into exacty the sort of populist mythmaking that Crichton is warning about in these speeches. You post a quote which would seem, to someone who doesn't understand the context of the quote, to be preposterous. Here's Crichton saying that there is no evidence that second-hand smoke poses a health-threat and yet we can easily imagine the voices of concensus-science indignantly insisting that "everybody knows" that second-hand smoke is dangerous. Don't they? The EPA doesn't agree. They evidently assigned second-hand smoke a risk factor of 1.19 and their threshold for concern is 3.0. I can't find a list of risk factors so I don't really have any way of knowing what 1.19 is comparable to (for all I know, rap music scores a 2.3), but it is significantly lower than the cutoff, woudn't you agree? They might be wrong, but if they are, it should be easy to prove that.--JonGwynne 01:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:50, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Spiffy. hen you have no reason for objecting to that quote.

If you'd read and understood my previous statements on the subject, then you wouldn't make such an obviously incorrect statement. BTW, since you evidently know all about the alleged dangers of second-hand smoke, perhaps you would consider writing a wikipedia article on the subject.--JonGwynne 14:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 16:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Oooooooooooh pardon me for not agreeing with your every word. You misrepresent me: whilst I personally avoid second hand smoke, I know little (scientifically) about its effects. But thats OK, because the article is about C, not me. And for the obvious reason you want to suppress his own words.

And knowing "little" about the science, you denounce Crichton's statement as "silly" even though it is supported by the facts and insist on spotlighting it out of context in an apparent effort to encourage other people to share the scorn and ridicule you apparently hold for Crichton. As far as your allegations that I want to "suppress" Crichton's words, I'm a bit puzzled since I'm drawing direct attention to them by providing a link to them - all of them, incidentally, not just the the few that you want to take out of context. Hmmm, this must be some new use of the word "suppress" on your part that means the exact opposite of the original. No wonder I'm puzzled.--JonGwynne 16:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

He's always had controversial views and has often used his fiction to articulate them. His book "The Great Train Robbery" raised some hackles because he used that story to express his views that crime and criminals were not an inevitable social 'ill' which comes from some people having more money than others but the inevitable result of some people being lazy and selfish; which he summed up as 'most crime is committed through greed, not need'.--JonGwynne 20:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Connolley "crosses the line" or... The Section Header that Connelly Wasn't Allowed to Censor

How do you explain your entire removal of what I wrote about one of Crichton's speeches? It sure looks like censorship to me and appears dangerously close to the wiki definition of vandalism. What's your beef with the section in question?

(William M. Connolley 15:31, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Its grossly POV pro-MC. The bit about false-in-one I felt to be particularly grotesque given his numerous errors.

Your opinions are you own. In the meantime, he made the statement and it is up to the individual reader to decide whether or not they think he's full of crap. It isn't your place to tell them that he is. As far as it being POV pro-MC, this isn't a place for people who disagree with Crichton's views to beat on him like a piñata. The is a place to describe the man's history, body of work and any public statements he has made. Any references to valid, objective, substantive criticism of his works or views can be placed in the "External Links" section or a separate section labelled "Criticism" or something like that. In fact, that's a good idea, maybe it will stop you peevishly reverting the article several times a day. I'll start you off...--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:34, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Oh, and bleating about censorship, when you have repeatedly censored his daft ideas about second hand smoke (even though its a direct quote, not interpreted, and not taken out of context) is most amusing.

Excuse me? I haven't "censored" anything, the link to his statements remains prominent and intact. And it IS taken out of context because you didn't quote the entire portion of the speech referring to the issues of second-hand smoke - just the part you felt to be "silly" and hoped, by spotlighting it that others would cause other people to react as you did. As it stands, his statement is factually accurrate. But, in any case, the quote is unnecessary since the whole of the speech is readily accessible to anyone who wants to read it. You, on the other hand, have engaged in censorship. You deliberately removed information that was not available anywhere else for the sole reason that you personally found it objectionable. That's a textbook definition of censorship.--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have a hypothesis; I suspect that you did it because I complained about your previous revision screwing up the reference numbering system so rather than move your link to a blatantly biased advocacy site down to the "External Links" section (where it belongs, by the way), you simply removed the paragraph I had written in order to keep your link where it does not belong. Am I close?--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:31, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) I did it because I didn't want to get into yet another pointless war on yet another section.

In other words, you wiped out someone else's work because you found it personally distasteful? How is that not censorship?--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've gone out of my way to accomodate your apparently fragile sensibilities --JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:31, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Perhaps this is the problem, you may feel that you have. And yet from my POV you haven't at all.

Believe me, I have. I have compromised and moderated my language considerably. But because I don't toe your exact party-line, you claim that I haven't moved at all... the mark of a zealot.--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

not only in this section but in the others as well and yet this still doesn't seem to be good enough for you. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain why any reasonable person would see this as anything but you being petulant and rude.--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let's be clear, unless you can come up with a good reason why your external link should be anywhere but in the "External Link" section, I submit that it should remain there.--JonGwynne 13:27, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:31, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Read what I wrote before

I did and nothing you said gives any reason why an external link shouldn't be placed in the "External Link" section. Only now there is some question that you have personal or professional ties to the site in question so I've removed it until we clarify this issue. I'm told that it is inappropriate for people to use wikipedia to promote their own interests. What's your take on this?--JonGwynne 18:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 22:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)) "Some question"? Oh dear, I assumed it was fairly obvious - I'm listed as a contributor on the site, after all. I didn't write that post, though. AFAIK there is no wiki policy against linking to sites you are involved with. There *is* a policy against liunk spam, but it isn't relevant here. I can give you a few pointers to other pages of mine that are linked if you like. Try global cooling for example.

OK, that seems fair. Since you were listed as a "contributor", it wasn't completely clear what it was you were contributing and whether or not you had any financial interest in the site. I'll replace the link since you seem to be saying that you have no personal or professional ties to the site other than that you contribute writing to it. Can you just confirm that is what you're saying?--JonGwynne 01:07, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) As it says on the site, I get paid nothing for contributing there (and, to close any other loopholes, I have no shares in it or any financial tie whatsoever).

By the way, the whole point of the criticism section was for you to expand on it (within reason) and, if you wish, create summaries of a similar size to the ones related to Crichton's speeches. Perhaps we can agree to keep the number of paragraphs on par so as to maintain the appearance of balance. In other words, if there are three paragraphs referring to his speeches, there could be three paragraphs referring to criticism. Please try to be objective and polite (i.e. refrain from calling his views "silly", referring to his books as "potboilers" or saying that he has no training as a scientist) and you'll get no complaints from me.--JonGwynne 01:07, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You appear to be under a misapprehension. I have never called him or his work silly, or his books potbiolers, on the article page. You appear to be trying to use the "Ed Poor" school of balance: toss in roughly equal piles of POV and hope it balances out somehow. This doen't work. I seriously think that simply linking to his speeches is best. Your own arguments support doing this.

Go back and read your own statements. In your entry of 22:07, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) you say that his quote regarding second-hand smoke "makes him look silly". In an undated remark, you said of MC "He is a writer of sci-fi potboilers". Whether or not it was on the article page is irrelevant.

(William M. Connolley 13:57, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Oh come now, of course it makes a huge difference. Here I can speak my mind. On the article page I have to be NPOV.

You "have to be NPOV"? Where were you planning to start this new policy? You haven't shown any signs of it so far.

Seriously, given the overt contempt you show for Crichton and his work, doesn't that suggest to you that you're not the best person to be contributing to this page? I wouldn't contribute to George W. Bush's page because I recognize that I harbor strong negative feelings towards him. Perhaps you should recuse yourself from further contributions to this page for the same reason... you know, in the interests of fairness and balance - to say nothing of accuracy.--JonGwynne 17:31, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 18:08, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Errr... thats a not really very subtle way of trying to get someone you personally disagree with to stop editing. The answer is, no. You are clearly pro-MC, but you just won't admit it.

Actually, I'm not pro-MC at all. I think some of his books are pretty bad - "Sphere" for one and "Prey" for another - and have no problems saying so. However, you're so anti-MC that you see neutrality as POV. And, no, you don't get to rename my section header. --JonGwynne 19:39, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

These statements clearly demonstrate your bias and tendency to bilious hyperbole.

(William M. Connolley 13:57, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Woooo... but "bilious hyperbole" just shows how sensible you are?

I think that's fair comment. It is certainly an accurate discription of the statements you made referring to his books as "potboilers". To which part of "bilious hyperbole" do you object?--JonGwynne 17:31, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 18:08, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) This is personal insult, which is against wiki policy. This is your first warning.

Oh, this is a "warning", is it? [sarcasm] (tugs at forelock and casts eyes downwards) Oh, please your honor, don't punish me. Time for you to head to the dispensary and request some ego-deflation pills.[/sarcasm] Let's examime the facts: "bilious, adj. ... Having a peevish disposition; ill-humored" - "hyperbole, n. an exaggerated statement". Please explain how my observation that you made a peevish exaggeration constitutes a personal insult. It wasn't as if (please note that the following is a hypothetical example and not an actual claim or statement intended to be taken literally) I said you were stupid or ugly (please note that the previous statements were not intended to be taken literally but were made solely for the purposes of illustrating a separate point. I want to make it clear that I have expressed no opinion whatsoever on the relative intelligent or aesthetic qualities of any individual who posts on this board - least of all WMC in case he is looking for a way to take offense at these statements) - which I would never do, regardless of any official policy on the matter, because those would be personal insults and, as such, as inappropriate in this context. While we're on the subject, one could easily argue that the term "potboiler" (A literary or artistic work of poor quality, produced quickly for profit) is a personal insult. Perhaps you'll explain how your complaint isn't hypocritical.--JonGwynne 13:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:41, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You appear to be doing your best to try to be unworkable with, which is silly of you. The above amounts to yet another personal attack, which (no personal attacks) is banned (you do realise that wiki expects civilised standards of dicourse on the talk pages). This is your second warning. On the third, I report you, and wiki well-known-to-be-fast-and-efficient processes swing into action.

Good luck convincing them that my statements amount to a personal attack but your negative personal comments don't. My statements are merely observations, yours are personal insults. They might also take a dim view of your censorship and vandalism so you might want to be careful about pestering the powers-that-be and, in so doing, draw their attention to your conduct.--JonGwynne 18:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As for your allegations that my use of the term "vandalism" is careless. I assure you, it is not. I have posted many articles here and been involved in many disagreements over content. This is, however, the first time I have accused anyone of vandalism and I did so specifically because you are removing original content from this article for no other apparent reason than that you find it personally objectionable.

(William M. Connolley 15:41, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Extremely dubious of itself (I deny it). But accusing me of vandalism for changing the section heading *on the talk page* to something NPOV is inexcusable.

That isn't so much vandalism as censorship.

(William M. Connolley 22:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)) So, you admit that your charge of vandalism was unjustified, but won't apologise for it.

Once again you misinterpreted what I said. I don't know if your misinterpretations are malicious or simply the result of ignorance. Which do you think it is WMC? To put the record straight, I have accused you of both censorship and vandalism at separate times - when you change another person's section heading for no other reason than you object to its content, that is censorship. When you destroy other people's work by removing it from the main page without any vaild reason to do so, that is vandalism. Do you understand now? For someone who claims to have an advanced degree, you seem to have serious trouble grasping basic concepts. --JonGwynne 00:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The interesting thing is that you just got done arguing that NPOV statements are acceptable on the talk page and now you're reverting ones that you don't like. That sure sounds like a clear-cut case of hypocrisy to me. It seems to me that the purpose of the talk page is to serve as the equivalent of a discussion forum so the act of modifying anyone else's commentary is completely inappropriate. And you HAVE crossed the line. You might not like being told that, but that's your problem.--JonGwynne 18:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 22:06, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)) NPOV is allowed on the talk page. Personal attacks *against wikipedians* aren't.

There are no personal attacks anywhere on wikipedia from me directed at anyone. Too bad you can't say the same thing. And what's with the preposterous qualification that only personal attacks "*against wikipedians*" are forbidden? A personal attack is a personal attack. Your indefensible personal attacks against Crichton are no more acceptable than any others. First of all, what proof do you have that he isn't a "wikipedian"?--JonGwynne 00:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, you should go and read the section on personal attacks you referenced earlier. Since you either didn't read it or didn't understand it, I'll quote a couple of sections you have violated: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia" (no mention of this restriction being limited in any way), "Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is" (unlike your repeated statements ridiculing Crichton's views because they are his), "Specific examples of personal attack include: Negative personal comments" (like describing someone's widely-respected body of work "potboilers", calling their views "silly", "daft" or "willfully ignorant" - especially without any supporting explaination as to why you feel that it is fair to comment thusly on Critchton's statements. --JonGwynne 00:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I find it odd that your claims of personal attacks remain empty even through you continue to make them. You have yet to explain exactly what it is I said that, in your mind, constitutes a "personal attack".--JonGwynne 00:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd be willing to bet that this isn't the first time you've been accused of vandalism, is it? Is that perhaps why you're so sensitive about it? If so, you might want to think about why this is the case. You insist on applying your own POV to this article despite having it modified and even reverted by several others here. You have repeatedly attempted to turn this article into one which editorializes and even denigrates the subject. Put simply, this isn't your soapbox dude. You may (or may not) feel that MC is a misguided fool but this isn't the place for you to tell other people what to think about him. This is the place where his body of work is to be catalogued and then the readers can decide all by themselves what they think of him. Why is it that you seem to have such a problem with other people being allowed to make up their minds?--JonGwynne 13:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm still trying to figure out why you keep changing the header. You have crossed the line.--JonGwynne 13:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And what's this fresh BS about my argument supporting simple links to his speeches? They do nothing of the sort. It is appropriate and even useful to summarize each speech briefly (i.e. in a paragraph) to provide a description of it so the reader can decide if they'd like to read the speech for themselves. Quoting the speech, on the other hand, is both unnecessary and inappropriate. So stop censoring this article! I gave you a criticism section where you could air your views. Use it or don't but keep your hands off other people's work. You're starting to piss me off.

(William M. Connolley 23:00, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Renaming this section to something non-POV can't be considered vandalism by any stretch of the imagination. Be sensible.

Like I said elsewhere, you just finished arguing that NPOV statements - even personally insulting, baseless and/or offensive ones like referring to MC's books as "potboilers" or calling him "daft"/"willfully ignorant"/"silly" is acceptable on the talk page. How do you justify censoring other people's views solely on the grounds that you don't like them? I'll make you a deal: you go back and remove all your POV remarks in this talk page and I'll rename the section header you find objectionable.--JonGwynne 18:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(no comment from WMC)

I guess you can't justify your censorship. Too bad you continue to practice it.--JonGwynne 00:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No comments at all this time? Just a blanket deletion of the header? Explain how that isn't censorship, vandalism or both?--JonGwynne 14:30, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(no comment from WMC)

Note that I've had to restore not only the header but the last comment since WMC censored that as well.--JonGwynne 18:46, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And so on...

(William M. Connolley 22:19, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Now JG is hiding substantive changes behind "grammatical corrections". Tut.

Your first lie. If you ask nicely, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't bother to use the wikitool to compare versions which would have clearly shown the spelling and grammar fixes - through to be fair, it wouldn't have shown the spacing fixes since the comparison tool doesn't show spacing changes. BTW, I'm not making "substantive changes", I'm reverting unwarranted censorship on your part - your destruction of other people's work begs to be reverted, expecially when that work adds value to this article.--JonGwynne 23:02, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

JonGwynne breaks the 3 reverts rule

(William M. Connolley 22:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You have broken the 3 reverts rule. Don't do this. Perhaps it was an honest mistake, in which case you should change it back and apologise.

According to the wikihistory, you are a liar. No wiggle room for you on this one I'm afraid. You are a liar. I made three reverts no 11, January. The first at 14:33, the second at 18:34 and the third at 22:30. That's three reverts. Exactly the same number as you have today. I trust you won't make another before midnight. BTW, as many of the wiki guidelines (e.g. personal attacks) as you break on a regular basis, you're the last person to lecture others on proper behavior here. So spare me your sancimonious chiding. To quote Jack Vance "He is that individual for whom the word 'mendacity' was coined". So, you can retract your statement or not, it really doesn't matter, your dishonesty remains.--JonGwynne 23:02, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 23:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Its 3 reverts in 24 hours, not per calendar day. If it was an honest mistake, you can apologise, retract the edit, and your comments above.

Yes, you are right, it isn't in a calendar day, it is in any 24-hour period. I didn't know that, I thought it was in a given day. So, I will retract one of my charges of you being a liar. The other one still stands of course. Oh yeah, and here's a question for you. Do really want to blow the whistle on my missing the mark by 81 minutes? I mean, if we go back and examine your revision record, will we find any examples of you breaking this rule? I've already seen at least one talk page on which you were accused of this - though, to be fair, I didn't verify the claim. If it is true, be prepared to have another charge of hypocrisy added to your tab. Perhaps this is why you're so prickly on the issue, have you ever been busted on it yourself? While we're discussing the subject of revision policy, I feel I could mount a very effective defense for my reversions based on the fact that they are undoing damage to the article which your changes caused. Despite your baseless claims to the contrary, the version you keep reverting to has mistakes in it which I have corrected. So, I could argue that my reversions were required by necessity. Hmmm... what's a word for willful and deliberate damage to the property of others which is often motivited purely by spite? How about "vandalism"?--JonGwynne 23:43, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On an unrelated subject, I notice that you have yet to make use of the "criticism" section which was created especially for you in the (apparently vain) hope that it would persuade you to be less strident with regards to the content of the overall article. Why not vent your spleen (within reason) in that section and point out all the mistakes you think Crichton has made with regards to his claims, views and public utterances? Quote all the statements he's made that cause you to grate your teeth with frustration and their absurdity and show the world exactly why you think they're absurd. How about that one about second-hand smoke that you were so keen to clutter up that other section with? Here, I'll start you off:--JonGwynne 23:43, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:44, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)) Well, that was graceless. Trying to NPOV this page isn't worth the hassle of talking with someone as unpleasant as you: goodbye.

Dispute Resolution RFC, William M. Connolley

I started an RFC regarding user William M. Connolley, located here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/William M. Connolley. If you are interested, please comment or sign as appropriate. — Cortonin | Talk 12:26, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Literary technique

How do we call the literary technique that you write a story based on the plot or structure of another one's? Crichton uses that trick all the time.

I think you guys are doing a poor job with this article because you failed to introduce readers his books. You have spent many many many words on his controversial speeches, but you did not tell readers what are his books. -- Toytoy 15:34, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Saying that "we" have done a poor job is not very constructive. I have edited this article, but never improved that aspect of it; does that mean I've done a "poor job"? You make it sound like this article has some designated group of editors, and that they have failed to meet some obligation. Just stating what's wrong with the article without putting someone to blame for it will give better results. I don't disagree with you though. Fredrik | talk 15:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Crichton is first and foremost an author of fiction, and it follows logically from this that the article ought to deal extensively with his novels. He is involved in controversy, so yes, the article should address this, but in all fairness I'd expect at least 50% of any article about an author to deal with the author as an author, with any other issues handled in short chapters, or if absolutely necessary, separate articles. Same way I'd expect an article about a politicial to be primarily about him as a politician, with any extra-marital affairs and scandals dealth with briefly in very short chapters, or if it cannot be avoided then addresses in separate articles.--Peter Knutsen (talk) 21:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

VSmith's insistence on editorializing

I am having to remove POV additions by VSmith that are inappropriate to this article and unsupported by his "references".--JonGwynne 14:23, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I didn't add the criticism section or the reference for it. I just re-instated it for balance as it makes the article more in line with NPOV to have a bit from a credible source as criticism. It is appropriate and is supported by the source given.[2] -Vsmith 15:45, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it isn't supported. The statements made in the editorial comments do not appear in the article and are unsupported by any statements that *are* made in it. I'm replacing them with an actual quote from the review that is balanced.--JonGwynne 20:32, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jurassic Park

"Before Jurassic Park, Robert T. Bakker's theory of warm-blooded and athlete-type dinosaurs was unimaginable to ordinary people, who were accustomed to seeing stop motion clay dinosaurs crawling sluggishly over the volcanic prehistorical terrains."

Do we really think that MC deserves credit for popularizing this idea? The warm-blooded dinosaur theory began 20 years before Jurassic Park the book and 25 years before the movie. I was definitely aware of the warm-blooded dinosaur theory before seeing the movie, and that was when I was 13. Dinosaurs were (are?) a popular enough subject with little boys and their dads that I'm pretty sure most people had the whole dinosaurs are chickens thing down. Other perspectives? --Chinasaur 11:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Environmental beliefs

"Additionally, Crichton correctly points out that there has been no rise in hurricane activity in the Atlantic over the past few decades"

Presumably this is now erroneous?!

Quite. 2005 = most hurricanes of any year since records have been kept.

DragonJ1080: I agree. Something should be changed about that part of the article.

I disagree. Just because one year was abnormally high does not indicate a trend. The 2004 Atlantic hurricane season was expensive but not particularly noteworthy in terms of numbers; 2003 Atlantic hurricane season was fairly active; 2002 Atlantic hurricane season was quieter than usual; 2001 Atlantic hurricane season and 2000 Atlantic hurricane season had no US landfalling hurricanes. This is hardly a "rise in hurricane activity" over a long period. Batmanand 15:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You people realize that Crichton is a writer of fiction, don't you? Dubc0724 20:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Michael Crichton

I've never been a fan of his books. But a few people I know who are have commented that they feel his books post the Jurassic Park movie have drasticly dropped in quality without the same level of research and with a change in style to a more populist 'Hollywood' trend or a made for the movie style. Is this a popular view among Crichton fans? Worth including? Based on his recent history, I guess many would feel his style is changing again to a more anti-science, pro-US conservative, even less research and spinning the evidence style. Any comments on this? Nil Einne 19:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I haven't yet read anything after Airframe (1996), but I think that that novel, as well as the ones preceeding it, are all good. Since 1996 is quite some years after the Jurrasic Park movie, I have to point out at at least one fan does not think that quality has dropped. Also there's nothing populistic about Airframe. Rather, Crichton addresses the irrationalities behind people's fear of flying, in his usual fashion. --Peter Knutsen (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

nonstandard pronunciation information

removed tag added by anon. --Mikereichold 23:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it should go without saying that IPA is standard on Wikipedia, and "cry-ton" is not IPA... If your beef is with the obtrusiveness of the template, then either fix the pronunciation or the template. --129.21.223.82 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree. --maru (talk) Contribs 01:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Mike, since you haven't seen fit to correct the pronunciation, I'm adding the tag back in. --maru (talk) contribs 06:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Added a list of his fiction novels.

His scientific views

Where do we put Crichton's well-known views on science and the environment? In the Criticism section?

He said:

"Environmental organizations are fomenting false fears in order to promote agendas and raise money." [3]

John Stossel wrote:

Crichton himself used to worry about global warming. But then he spent three years researching it. He concluded it's just another foolish media-hyped scare. Many climate scientists agree with him, saying the effect of man and greenhouse gases is minor. [ibid]

Huh? What views on science and the environment? You quote a view on environmental organizations. Views on environmental organizations are not the same thing as views on the environment. Don't make the error of conflating a special case into a generalization. Furthermore, you don't mention any particular views on science that I've seen. Kasreyn 00:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms?

Is it just me or does the criticism section read like the work of a 12 yr old with an etch-a-sketch?

The criticisms regarding DDT feel a bit weak, and disjointed. They might do better with a combined approach, if one is possible. If not, presentation should be cleaned up to feel like a relatively compelling criticism.

Second is the criticism of Jurassic Park. It appears to be a criticism of the film, not the novel, and doesn't really feel like a criticism of anything. It was a top-selling movie, and as such was compared with other top-selling films. If anything the criticism of Crichton would then be one of originality, and I would submit to the readers that genetically cloned dinosaurs running amok is nothing if not original, particularly for the time period it was written.

The final paragraph seems to be nothing short of ridiculous. I don't know what philosophical realm this came from but the notion that fictional authors have a responsibility to their readers to tell their tale in any other way than that which they deem fit is absurd. I don't see this criticism on Jules Verne's entry, but he would fall victim to this broad claim as well. I didn't catch the social impact of submarines at the end of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Even worse, this general critique would fight anything that has followed the common rules of drama (intro, climax, denouement, etc).

The Afterward to State of Fear is clearly intended to present a non-fiction account of global climate change. Crichton wouldn't be subjected to the criticisms of scientists and journalists if he hadn't made a concerted effort to present himself as more than a fiction writer. As far as I know, Jules Verne never testified before a Congressional Committee on science policy.

If anyone has any objection to editing these speak now or forever hold your peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.137.79 (talk • contribs)

No objection. Remember to use --~~~~ for signing your name. --Liface 03:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No objections. Those criticisms were originally interspersed throughout the article by someone who was making a strong effort to discredit Dr. Chrichton. I didn't want to get into an edit war with that individual, who has developed quite a reputation for engaging in them with others, so, I just moved all the criticisms to a "criticism" section without editing them at all which appears to have been effective in keeping an edit war from breaking out. However, if that individual has moved-on to other things, perhaps now is the time to clean-up that part of the article as you suggest. Cla68 20:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd best notify the American Association of Petroleum Geologists of Crichton's fiction-author status, after all they solemnly intoned "It is fiction, but it has the absolute ring of truth". Who are we to argue with such an august body? Why would you wish to discredit Dr. Crichton after his veracity has been so recognized?Gzuckier 21:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Commonwealth Club

It is not clear which Commonwealth Club Crichton made his speach at (see link). I presume it was the Commonwealth Club of California. If someone knows for sure, could they modify the link so it goes directly to that page? --Michael Johnson 00:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

POV that Crichton is wrong

Cut:

(however these examples are heavily disputed in the scientific community)

DDT is not "heavily disputed" - it recently changed to supporting Crichton. Second-hand smoke is disputed, but not heavily, it's pretty much a dead issue. Global warming is not "heavily disputed", either, as the consensus is pretty much that it's occurring.

Sounds like a contributor was editorializing here. --Uncle Ed 15:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Crichton is a global warming skeptic. I hadn't heard about the DDT thing, any sources for that? --Liface 15:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientific American. --Uncle Ed 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Third world countries with malaria epidemics need dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT), say the editors of Scientific American Magazine. [4]

• It might be better for credibility's sake to find a URL that links directly to the Scientific American Magazine instead of through that lobbying group's website. Here's a link directly to the article: [5]. If there's an article about DDT on Wikipedia, this article should probably be added to the references section. Cla68 20:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

This is fine, what about the global warming points that he brings up in his essay?

"I can tell you that the Sahara desert is shrinking, and the total ice of Antarctica is increasing. I can tell you that a blue-ribbon panel in Science magazine concluded that there is no known technology that will enable us to halt the rise of carbon dioxide in the 21st century. Not wind, not solar, not even nuclear. The panel concluded a totally new technology-like nuclear fusion-was necessary, otherwise nothing could be done and in the meantime all efforts would be a waste of time. They said that when the UN IPCC reports stated alternative technologies existed that could control greenhouse gases, the UN was wrong."

Aren't these heavily debated in the scientific community? --Liface 21:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the scientific community doesn't usually engage in debate per se. Researchers simply submit journal articles.

The debate usually surfaces in the popular press, with heavy emphasis on political maneuvering, name-calling, "sucker punches", etc.

I'm surprised to hear you think there is "heavy debate" over global warming when the latest pronouncement in Science is that there is a "scientific consensus" on the matter. This so-called consensus is used to support the Kyoto Protocol, while the work of "contrarians" and "skeptics" is either ignored or dismissed:

• Richard Lindzen, top MIT climatologist
• Sallie Baliunas, astronomer championing the solar variation theory of climate change
• Fred Singer, retired scientist who pioneered space-based collection of weather and climate data

Wikipedia:NPOV is supposed to give the opposite POV at least a minimal airing, but an overwhelming majority of contributors can subvert this policy by "ganging up" to revert any changes which don't satisfy their "consensus". It's a weakness of online collaboration, and probably requires the creation of another encyclopedia with better editorial controls. --Uncle Ed 14:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Although you can see in my user page that I'm a dedicated Wikipedian, I definitely agree with you that one of Wikipedia's great weaknesses is how ideas can be "ganged-up" on and effectively shut-out, as appears to be the case with several of the global warming articles. The website WikiTruth.info hits this and other Wikipedia problems dead-on in their site. I heard that one of the original creators of Wikipedia (I can't remember his name) is planning on starting an on-line encyclopedia that will have more regulations regarding participation, contribution, and editing. Cla68 17:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Larry Sanger. I don't expect much to come of his Digital Universe thingie. First-mover advantage, more people and articles to start with, etc. Code rewrites rarely go well... --maru (talk) contribs 17:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Crichton IS a global warming skeptic. --Liface 15:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Wikipedia does not have an article on "Scientific debate". I just checked, and the link is red! --Uncle Ed 14:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, and I think you're misunderstanding me, but I'll leave the article alone as it looks fine to me. --Liface 15:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Missing Book

Crichton wrote a book about a drug deal gone humorously wrong in about 1971; I remember reading it, and later discovering that it had been made into a movie (staring John Lithgow, maybe). I don't see it reflected here.Uucp 16:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

right; IIRC that was dealing the berkeley to boston forty brick lost bag blues. I'd forgotten about it. Made into a reasonably OK movie, too. I'll try and dig something up. Boy, has he changed since then. Gzuckier 16:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

(I'm aware of wikipedia policies. "Cry-ten" just happens to be wrong.)

How is it pronounced then? --Liface 01:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The author information in the back of one of his books once said "Michael Crichton (pronounced like 'frighten')." --Michael24 05:47, 31 January 2007

Dr. Michael Crichton, M.D.

It seems prudent to include the academic title of Crichton in his name at the beginning of this article as Dr. Michael Crichton, M.D. seeing as he has an advanced degree. He does not use this title as part of his public persona, but that is not unusual. Bill Cosby has a Ed.D. in education but does not use this title as part of his public persona. I think that this title should be included unless there is some academic reason as to why it should not be.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.65.131.202 (talk • contribs)

If C has a Ph D, its not obvious from the biog in the article. In what? Where from? William M. Connolley 21:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He actually does use it in his public persona allthough not on the covers of his books or in the credits, but always when he makes a speech or like when testifieng before the senate. Ben 22:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

New Book

I added info on his new book under biography since it is not known whether it will be fiction or non-fiction and didn't know where else to put it. Ben 22:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Government Secret Agent

His views on global climate side with US oil and other industries interests. Looks like americans will only open their eyes when the sky turn black. 201.19.156.9 02:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"americans" (sic) can refer to people from either North or South America. Which of those people did you mean? Cla68 06:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In some places they teach of 'North America' as being Mexico, US, Canada. Thus, you would have to specify further still. In my view, the word should describe anyone from the mainland/caribean. Yet, most people in the world use the word to refer to the US citizens. For example, on Sept 12 2001 the front page of Le Monde read 'aujourd'hui tous sommes Americaines" Brusegadi 15:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a single word for USA-nians. USA-nians typically refer to themselves as just "Americans" (as in the Presidential address, "My fellow Americans..."). ErkDemon 22:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You'll be startled to learn that there are more viewpoints possible than the ultra-environmentalist and the ultra-industrialist. Crichton's book, he explains, serves the purpose of attacking the politicization of science - specifically the politicization of climatology, which he accuses both sides of. Yet apparently to some, if he is not with them, he must be against them... His take on the issue is not a partisan take; it is a scientist's take. Kasreyn 05:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that after his testimony in congress? Besides, the moment that you accuse scince of being politicized you are taking a political stand. It is also strange that his line of reasoning is parallel to that of the main opponents to the implementation of policy to begin to slow down the rate of Carbon Dioxide emissions. Brusegadi 15:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No, claiming that science in general has been politicized is a pro-scientific stance. A political stance necessarily would require some sort of preference for a particular partisan policy. (That Crichton may indeed hold political beliefs about CO2 emissions, I don't know and don't dispute - just that it is possible to apolitically note the politicization of science.) And I was unaware he had given testimony before congress; I thought the editor's comment was in regards to his novel State of Fear. What was his testimony? I don't see it in the article, just a mention that he testified. (We should probably increase that section's writeup to explain what Crichton's testimony was.) Cheers, Kasreyn 04:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I will disagree with you. It is not a pro-scientific stand becuase both sides can blame the other side of politicizing science. Skeptics blame Algore, mainstream blames the Bush administrtation. Thus, the moment that you say that science is politicized one of the two sides can interpret the way they want. Its like saying that Jehova's witness is an apolitical organization because they are not allowed to vote or protest. If suddenly they became a substantial part of the population, most people would not participate in government and its abolition would come in. It is virtually impossible to be outside the political arena when you interpret the metapolitical statements. Brusegadi 18:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

A quick google should turn up a copy of a NY Times article "Michael Crichton, Novelist, Becomes Senate Witness" from 29 September 2005. -- Gwern (contribs) 05:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've read the article, and I see nothing in it that contradicts his stance as explained in the author's note in my copy of State of Fear. He does not appear to be taking a partisan side or specifically supporting the industrialists who unlike Crichton flatly deny all possibility of human responsibility for global warming. Crichton merely claims, as NYT notes, that the methodology of climate science simply isn't up to the challenge of determining how much influence we have on the environment; it is a technical, and indeed scientific, approach to the issue. That he is opposed in his views by various scientific organizations is nothing to be surprised at; the entire point of science is to encourage debate and study rather than to quash it. That he wrapped his idea up in a novel with a dramatized plot is nothing new for Crichton; look at Eaters of the Dead, where he dressed up his theory on the origin of the Beowulf mythos as a fanciful first-person narrative. There's nothing in the slightest wrong with combining his knowledge of science with his writing ability to make a living. I don't know enough about climatology myself to judge the fairness of his assessment of it, but I do know that I admire his willingness to stick to his guns despite political outcry. I'd love to read a scientific critique of his ideas. I have no interest whatsoever in politicians with no scientific training who have the chutzpah to chastise Crichton merely in order to pander to the public's teevee-derived grasp of "science" - nor in those politicians who, foolishly thinking he's now some sort of anti-environmentalist ally, wish to champion Crichton for the wrong reasons. All they're doing is proving him right. Kasreyn 06:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't trying to say anything either way on Crichton's politics, simply provide a reliable reference for you to show that yes, he did indeed testify something. -- Gwern (contribs) 14:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of weird stuff here. Why is claiming that science in general has been politicized is a pro-scientific stance true? The assertion that (climate) science has been politicised isn't obviously true; indeed, I would argue that its untrue. Simply making it as a claim is far from a scientific stance. Ditto Crichton merely claims, as NYT notes, that the methodology of climate science simply isn't up to the challenge of determining how much influence we have on the environment; it is a technical, and indeed scientific. I think you are correct: C merely *claims* this - he offers no evidence. This too is not a scientific stance. As demonstrated by the available evidence, summarised on global warming and related pages (attribution of recent climate change) there is good work on, and evidence for, how much influence we have. Denying the existence of that work is far from scientific. C's stance is an essentially s(k)eptic one William M. Connolley 15:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say skepticism is a key component of a scientific perspective and way of thinking. By comparison, in his novel he rails against people who choose to dogmatically believe in some things supported by science (such as certain widely-accepted theories re: global warming), who refuse to give skeptics a fair hearing. It seems that Crichton feels there is an oppressive atmosphere (sorry, couldn't resist ;) or chilling effect in the scientific community against anyone who is openly skeptical of global warming or the direction climate science is going in. Why I say his stance is non-partisan is that he doesn't seem to specifically favor either side in a political sense; he claims to favor merely disentangling science from politics. This is pro-scientific because, as he demonstrated in his examples, such as eugenics, scientific progress, and the scientific community, have suffered real harm in the past when science became politicized. Ie., it is pro-scientific in that he seems to wish success to overall scientific endeavor and that it be unharmed by the negative effects of politicization. I would like to think that were the situation reversed, and the anti-global-warming side winning the public debate, he would be decrying politicized science just as loudly. This is the sort of thing that an optimist would assume good faith on. The line between good-faith skeptic and irrational crank is a fine one, and sometimes only an expert in the field can tell the difference.

P.S. And of course he didn't offer evidence in a Congressional hearing. It's not like they have any training or qualification to judge it. They're former lawyers, fachrissakes. As to whether he has evidence elsewhere, read State of Fear. I withhold judgment on the points he raises within, because unlike a Congresscritter, I know I'm not qualified to tell whether the points he raises within are effective or not. Kasreyn 04:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed some stuff about Andromeda Strain being influenced by War of the Worlds. Frankly the influence could be reduced to 'there are microbes involved at some point'. Rampant speculation. DJ Clayworth 20:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Considered one of the best writers of the 20th century?

By whom? Isn't that a little bit POV? --217.65.158.120 15:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Needs a source. I like Crichton as much as the next guy but any statement like that needs a credible source or it can't be included in Wikipedia. Cla68 15:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a question of $$$$ talking. People like his stuff, it sells well. That is what a good writer is. On top of that, Hollywood likes his stuff too. What other writer, with more than a dozen novels published, has had such a great percentage of his novels made into movies? There really is nothing to discuss. He is a very good writer, by any objective criterion.--Peter Knutsen (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You're mixing up popular writer, prolific writer and successful screenwriter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.217.83 (talk) 14:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Pixilized Image

Do you think perhaps we could get a higher resolution image of Crichton? This one's a bit low res. —Preceding unsigned comment added by unknown IP (talk • contribs)

Next - problems

I removed some unsourced speculations regarding personal attacks in his novel "Next". It is not Wikipedia's job to speculate on potential legal problems. Refer to WP:BLP and use only reliably cited information. Vsmith 02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK - it was basically a cut n paste job from the following blog: [6]. I think we need a better source before discussing it here and surely we don't need the graphic quotes from the book. If it makes the major news or turns into a legal case then it could be considered mentioning. Again, we're writing about living people here - use caution. Vsmith 03:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obviously an attack, but that really belongs in the Next article - if it becomes a major issue beyond a few blogs and aggregators, then it might make sense to include in the main biographical article. But not yet. --Gwern (contribs) 03:59 15 December 2006 (GMT)

I added a short section on the "Mike Crowley" controversy without having been aware of this past history. However, my section is a strict recitation of the facts, without speculation about Crichton's purpose or meaning. It is sourced to both an article in the New York Times and the first-person blog entry by the person involved. It is, I think, an appropriate and relevant addition to the article, which can be extended or revised if more facts become known -- I ask that it not be deleted without discussion here first. unfutz 07:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Gwern is right that it belongs in the article for that book, not in the main Crichton article. Cla68 12:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Gwern is wrong; this absolutely should be included in the main Chrichton article. It's a news story that's been all over the Internet. And the "blog" in question is not some random blog, but a blog hosted by The New Republic. I'd say the entry as it is, with the abbreviated information, is perfectly fine. --Vidor 16:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If anything, the current version is a bit murky. I would suggest adding a sentence like "Crowley believes that Crichton's pedophilic character is meant as a 'literary hit-and-run' against him in response to his column in The New Republic." This way, the controversy is clear without NPOV issues. --Dicksonlaprade 17:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Vidor, it's big now, but has it managed to transition to offline? Will it still be big and worthy of an entire section and several paragraphs years from now? It'll be a longterm thing for the novel, true, but it's not nearly so clear that it's that important for Crichton. --Gwern (contribs) 18:24 15 December 2006 (GMT)

The original blog post by Crowley has an "issue date" of 25 December, so it should be in the print edition of The New Republic that comes out on Monday the 18th. Will it be worthy years from now? Yes, yes it will. When an author makes a thinly veiled attack on a critic in a book and gets called on it? Yup, that's plenty worthy. Vidor 22:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Then why not wait until we see what the reaction is? --Gwern (contribs) 22:57 15 December 2006 (GMT)

What for? We have the reaction now, by the author attacked, on The New Republic's blog. There's no reason to wait three days for it to be in newsprint. Vidor 23:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What for? So we can see whether this is more than just a tempest in a blogger's teapot. --Gwern (contribs) 03:43 16 December 2006 (GMT)

The controversy has already made it "offline" -- the first external link I provided is to an article in the New York Times, the "paper of record". The material as presented is a simple recitation of fact, it does not draw any conclusions or take any sides -- Chrichton wrote what he wrote (anyone can open the book and see that) and Crowley is who he is and did what he did (criticized Crichton). As this progresses, more information may come out, and when it does more context can be provided, but for the moment, what I believe we have is a non-libelous account of an existing controversy. Deleting it will serve no purpose except for making the article less factual. unfutz 04:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

An anonymous user added the following to the controversy section: "However, due to the time inherent in the publishing process, the manuscript may have been finalized before Mr. Crowley's article was published, which would then relegate this controversy into the realm of unfortunate coincidence." While timing would indeed be a legitimate objection to the idea that Crichton did this deliberately, you need to provide a citation showing that either specifically in this case March 2006 was past the point where Crichton could add content to his book, or, at the very least, something indicating generally what the timing typically is. Absent such a citation, this is mere speculation -- and the rest is opinion. unfutz 09:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Does the controversy exist anywhere outside the mind of TNR editor Michael Crowley? Let me play devil's advocate here for a second and make the observation that Crowley was far from alone in criticising Crichton's book "State of Fear". Even assuming the characters are related, why would Crichton single Crowley out? Also, this wouldn't be the first example of a coincidental similarity between an unsympathetic fictitious character and a real-life person. Take the example of Keith Lard as one of many. Is there a single piece of objective evidence that Crichton's character is actually a shot at this editor guy? If not, then this "controversy" is nothing but speculation. --Curtis Bledsoe 03:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Your question goes towards whether it was a deliberate act by Crichton or not, and that we don't know, since he hasn't commented (as far as I know) and we haven't had the chance to judge his explanation. But absent that, the "controversy" most obviously does exist, since these things happened, they've been reported, their existence is confirmed, and claims have been made about their meaning. The controversy doesn't become non-existent simply because we don't know everything about it, or because Crichton hasn't talked about it. unfutz 21:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but where does the controversy exist outside Crowley's possibly bruised ego? As far as I can tell, he is the *only* person keeping this "controversy" alive. Does one pissed-off person constitute a "controversy"? I've read the book and the fictitious Crowley is certainly an unsympathetic character , though I dispute the claim that he doesn't advance the story, but there is no evidence that there is any relation between the real one and the fictitious one. The only person who knows for sure is Crichton and I'll make two confident predictions right now, though I have no factual basis to support them: 1. Crichton will never publically comment on the matter (why should he?). 2. Even if he does publically comment and deny the connection, the real Crowley will never believe Crichton's statement (why should he?). 3. The real Crowley will probably attempt to sue Crichton if the book is a big hit (which it doesn't show much sign of being) in spite of the general assumption that real people described in fiction as having small penises are reluctant to sue. 4. If Crowley does sue Crichton, I wouldn't be surprised if Crichton's lawyer tries to get Crowley's member measured as part of the discovery in the case to try to embarrass the plaintiff and stop the case moving foward. --Curtis Bledsoe 05:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleted section

I deleted the following section, because it contains statements that are, to my knowledge, false:

== Scientific concepts ==

In several of his books, Crichton popularised scientific and technological concepts which had not previously received widespread attention by non-scientists. Many of the ideas he used were novel to the average person, despite previous attention to them being given by some in the scientific community.

For example, before Jurassic Park, Robert T. Bakker's theory of warm-blooded and fast-moving dinosaurs had not received a great deal of attention in the popular media. Laypeople were accustomed to seeing stop motion clay dinosaurs crawling sluggishly over the volcanic prehistorical terrains.

The warm-blooded dinosaur reconstruction had in face received extensive coverage in popular media, newspapers, magazines, and children's books at least since the late 1970s, more than a decade before the publication of Jurassic Park (the book), and a great many books had been published promoting the concept. In addition, the section seems to confuse the book with the movie in making comparisons to earlier stop-motion dinosaur movies -- though Harryhausen dinosaurs are at least as quick-moving as any of his SFX monsters. RandomCritic 17:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

William M. Connolley seems to stalk this and related articles

Just received a Michael Crichton book (State of Fear) a few days ago, finished it tonight, and came here to read up on what he was up to lately. It's funny, because the same behavior he accuses people of in the book is occurring right here on the discussion page. Which I find hilarious. At first, I just noticed the abnormal amount of William Connolley postings, and the fact that he obviously doesn't approve of Crichton's views. Going through the endless discussion , I went to the Lindzen (sp?) article, and found the same Connolley guy going after him, and Fred Singer, and Lomborg, all of which are heavily populated by Connolley. So I go to his user page, on which he declares his views quite openly. Then, I see the dispute resolution RFC thing, and check that. Wow. We have a winner! And on his user page, he takes pride in the fact that he is now apparently an Admin.

Makes me happy that I never signed up for a wikipedia account. I can't see how it makes sense for someone to defend their editing of an article, or how they get nominated to Adminship (or however that process works) when...

1. They state a clear bias on their user page 2. They disparage the subject of the article 3. They apparently have a vanity article 4. They have had so many interpersonal issues that they have an RFC that in some way is trying to bring an end to their apparently abusive behavior.

Anyway, it should be clear to any truly neutral party that this guy has no business editing articles when he so obviously holds such fervent views. He is too close to the topic at hand to be considered a objective editor. And I can't imagine he has that much time for real research when he spends all of his time on Wikipedia, trolling environmental articles.--205.231.145.184 07:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Gee, at least he has the courage of his convictions and posts under his own name, as well as providing numerous locations where you can trade views with him. He doesn't post anonymously ina hit-and-run fashion. unfutz 08:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfutz, you're "shooting" the messenger, not the message. Does what 205.231.145.184 says have any truth to it? Cla68 08:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Shooting the messaenger is precisely what that anonymous attack was. As far as I understand the subject, the science is on Connelley's side, not Crichton's, so I find the charges irrelevant. unfutz 08:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether science is on his side is debatable. Anyway, it sounds like you're saying that POV-pushing is fine with you as long as you agree with the POV that's being pushed. Nevertheless, this talk page should discuss the article, not the editors involved with it. If "205.231.145.184" feels that strongly about Connolley's participation on Wikipedia, he should open an arbitration case. Cla68 01:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at some of Connelly's contributions and I find it difficult to understand why this person is taken seriously. He can call himself a "scientist" all he likes, but he behaves like a politician. He's clearly come to wikipedia to push his own POV. The fact that other admins let him get away with it doesn't say much for them. --Curtis Bledsoe 20:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost forgot to check this page for responses. I could give a crap about the "science". I doubt Crichton knows any more that Connolley, and somehow I doubt Connolley knows much. My point was the inappropriateness of someone editing the article who very obviously brings quite a bit of baggage to the table. I think that a relevant link would be his own admin approval process page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/William_M._Connolley_2

I couldn't read through it all, but it is clear that this man's opinions are what guides his editing. I come to Wikipedia to read, not to edit, and unfortunately, the articles are not as good when you are spending your time trying to push an agenda.--205.231.145.184 05:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I could give a crap about the "science". Well, we disagree, I care a great deal about it, and so should everyone who edits Wikipedia, since science in many cases defines the line beyond which points of view become facts. unfutz 07:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you are confused; this is not a science article. This is an article about an author. Yes, he has opinions on various scientific topics. Yes, I am sure people here disagree with him. The place to try to to "work that out" is not on the author entry. So these comments about how I shouldn't "attack" someone in the article discussion should not have to apply, since he shouldn't be editing/commenting on the science in a biographical article. He is so worried about someone being convinced by the contents of a work of fiction that he loses sense of what an editor's purpose on Wikipedia is (hint: it is not to proselytize)--205.231.145.184 23:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of editors have tried to delete this discussion. Maybe they're right to do so, I don't know. I've asked for an opinion on one of the administrator noticeboards, to which administrators may or may not decide to comment. If they don't, I'll take it to mean that it's up to us to decide whether this discussion stays or is deleted. Cla68 00:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I am confused -- where is the evidence that someone has tried to delete this section of the discussion? I don't see anything like that in the History -- where would I find it? Thanks. unfutz 02:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't find the second instance anymore either. It seems to have disappeared. But, here's the first "diff" showing someone trying to delete this discussion: [7].

Incidentally, the comment by the editor above (205.231.145.184, who continues to comment here anonymously) is misleading, since the issue is that Crichton has taken a stance on an issue of science, which therefore stands or falls not on its popularity or POV issues, but on whether or not the science is sound. Editing on that basis is therefore quite justified. unfutz 02:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

How is signing my comments "anonymous"? You have my ip address. Do my views become more valid if you know my name, Mr. Unfutz?.--205.231.145.184 06:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Including a criticism section of Crichton's views is ok, as long as it adheres to the guidelines (undue weight, external links, etc). One editor in particular has, in the past, done some fairly significant editing on this article with regard to criticism of Cricton. Discussing that here on the talk page is also ok, as long as it addresses the behavior or actions of the editor and how that those actions relate to the article's content. Cla68 04:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

An IP addresss is not necessarily a unique identifier, since some systems, AOL for instance, use proxy servers. However in this instance, since all of your comments are from the same address, I'd say that's not likely to be the case. However, since you ask, yes, I think it's generally true that a comment signed with a name, even a pseudonym, carries more weight than one which is anonymous -- I think that's probably a quirk of human psychology. And a string of numbers, even if a unique identifier, doesn't carry the same significance as a name -- again, probably another quirk of the way we perceive things. Since you seem to be interested in hanging around and defending your point of view on this, why not get yourself a Wikipedia account, which would (yes) give your comments more weight -- whether they become more valid depends, of course, on their content. unfutz 19:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Paranormal Beliefs

Does anyone else believe that this is whole section is made up? I've never heard Crichton endorse anything none scientific before. In fact he usually talks about scientist who don't follow science. Has anyone read Travels? Does anything this section mentions appear in that book at all? Dominic 20:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I was initially skeptical, but after looking at the reviews and Table of Contents at amazon.com, I'm not sure it's made up. For example, there are chapters titled "Spoon Bending", "Seeing Auras", "Life on the Astral Plane", "Cactus Teachings", "London Psychics". We'll need input from someone who has the book. --Spiffy sperry 17:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I have read the book and that is indeed correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.184.102 (talk • contribs)

The section was added here by anon 209.178.243.105, at which time it claimed (falsely) that Crichton claimed actually to have been possessed and cured by an exorcism, and (falsely) that Crichton endorsed a psychic cause for spoon bending. Based on such errors, I'm invoking WP:BLP and removing all text that was introduced in that revision. Gazpacho 05:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have read the book and can say more confidently that the paragraph was an irresponsible lie. Here is what Crichton says about paranormal phenomena in the book:

• People have the capacity for telepathy, precognition, and sensing the chakra, or life-energy, of other people.
• His experiences indicate that these are objective phenomena, not self-delusions.
• He also believes they are ordinary and widespread, and appear phony only to people who haven't explored them personally.
• He doesn't have an explanation for them.

That's it. He doesn't state that he was possessed by a demon, or that spoon-bending is a psychic phenomenon, or that germs might not cause disease, or that he had audible conversations with plants. Like I said, a lie by someone who either didn't read the book or is completely dishonest. Gazpacho 08:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Pseudonym John Dybach

Anonymous user just add "John Dybach" as a pseudonym. Nothing on the page indicates such a pseudonym. True? Cburnett 19:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it after a simple google search revealed nothing relevant. Cburnett 16:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Patents

He also wrote an opinion piece for the NYT on gene patents, which might be worth mentioning. I'm too lazy to do it myself, though. --Itub 12:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Apology for cryptic summary about "activating" his Cat LP sort

I reverted my own desperate edit, made in the face of "obvious" evidence that something i couldn't see was broken. For anyone for any reason trying to understand what was going thru my head, my poor battered brain couldn't see that Anthony Crichton-Stuart didn't belong shortly before Jesus Christ in the alphabet, and it goaded me into making a fool of myself by trying to get Michael Crichton to fall near them both on Category:Living people. [blushing beet-red] (The good news is that i didn't quite make it to WP:VP/T with a plea for developer attention!)
--Jerzy•t 13:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

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personal wealth ?

Is there an estimation of his personal wealth? this should be measured in the hundreds of millions USD, and should also be mentioned in the article.--Procrastinating@^talk2me 13:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I would be surprised if Crichton's personal wealth is not at least tens of millions of dollars, but no, it should not be mentioned in the article. He is a very succesful author, with most of his novels have been made into movies. It follows logically and obviously from this that he is rich, and the article should in no way spell it out. Instead, the reader should be able to "do the math" himself, just as with every other Wikipedia article about a person who (until proven otherwise) must have been assumed to have earned his wealth through some kind of work that he has performed. --Peter Knutsen (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Even if you had a source for that we have to judge the weight it carries in a restrictive sense since we also have to worry about privacy issues. So, unless there is good reason (suddenly it comes up the he is illegally in welfare or something) there is really no good reason to add that sort of thing. For example, with birthdays, you are supposed to add only those of very notable people. For less notable subjects, birthdays go unmentioned. Brusegadi (talk) 05:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Archive

The page is becoming too big, anyone mind if I set up a bot to archive?? Brusegadi (talk) 06:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please do; the page is becoming larger, and larger, and larger...--71.112.145.203 (talk) 23:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Academic title

I've removed the "M.D." which someone added postnominally to the Crichton's name. The Manual of Style, in MOS:BIO, advises not to add academic titles to a person's name. Instead, somewhere in the article it should be mentioned that the person obtained an academic degree. For example, the article on Vladimir Putin does not begin "Vladimir Putin, Ph.D." but mentions later in the article that the former Russian president obtained a doctorate at some point in his academic studies. --71.112.145.203 (talk) 23:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

adding webpage to External Links on Michael Crichton

Hello, in the editing tutorial I've read that I should post here before adding content to the External Links section of the article.

So, here goes: I have recently made a webpage with a full listing of Crichton's works, classified by type, and with comments on some of them (I aim to comment on all of them). This is the result of my interest in the writer and his work, and it is totally non-commercial - I do not make any money with it. So, will someone tell me if it is a good idea to add it to the External Links list?

The address is www.michaelcrichton.eu

Thanks Eriks9 (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that it's a bad idea because of the "notability" requirement. Nothing personal and maybe your comments are great. But, just having a related website is really not enough to justify inclusion in the links. Kace7 (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Death?

I read online he just died, but can't confirm it. Anyone have any info on it? (86.42.221.135 (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC))Tom

Yes. CNN just reported that he died on Tuesday from a private battle with cancer. http://www.etonline.com/news/2008/11/67369/

CNN just reported on it, and Michael Chrichton's own website confirms it. Now if the retard who's trying to incorrectly add it to the infobox would just hold off for a fucking minute I would do it properly. Fucking edit conflicts! — NRen2k5^(TALK), 17:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, what a mess. I'll be back in a few hours when more sources are available, when Crichton's site isn't totally hammered, when newbies aren't climbing all over each other to edit the article, etc. to make sure the information is consistent and accurate. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 18:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to control his childish temper. Until sources cite that he died on Tuesday, (which CNN did NOT do), then quit saying he died on Tuesday. CNN said he passed away, "earlier today", not last night or yesterday.

Thanks for removing the stupid (but amusing) death quote. Here's the release from CNN: LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- Michael Crichton, a best-selling author, died in Los Angeles on Tuesday, his public relations firm said in a news release.

Dang it! I wanted to see the quote. Melia Nymph (talk) 19:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Copied the gag quote if you wanted to see it:

Michael Crichton died November 5, 2008, from a rare Andromeda strain of cancer. After what initially appeared to be a hopeful run at remission as a result of the controversial new Carey Treatment, Crichton’s timeline ran out. The late author, known by some as “The Terminal Man”, opted not to provide the public with full disclosure regarding his illness, but rather to keep it within his personal sphere of close friends and family. He was noted to have kept his zero cool, despite what must have indeed been a state of fear. Crichton was 66 years old. Jurassic Park.

He "died unexpectedly," the release said, "after a courageous and private battle against cancer." M-w-b (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC).

Here's CNN's online obituary. We can add it as a source when things calm down. http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/11/05/obit.crichton/index.html — NRen2k5^(TALK), 18:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we also clean up the last paragraph of the 'biography' section? 'private' is used waaay too much: ".... a private battle ... A private funeral service ... details about his death be kept private."67.160.173.101 (talk) 22:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The comment about his book being delayed either needs fixing or removal. The references given make absolutely no mention of dates that I can see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.151.2.102 (talk) 18:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you could look up the ISBN at various online bookstores, and you will see it is scheduled for the release date given in the article. Some will not have updated their databases and will show the previous date, as mentioned. As far as the reference given, had you followed the referenced article and read it all, you'd have found the following: "A new novel by Crichton had been tentatively scheduled to come next month, but publisher HarperCollins said the book was postponed indefinitely because of his illness." Jmj713 (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Please unlock

Someone has locked this article, and now I can't edit it. Please unlock it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.23.44 (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The links section is wrong. The "official" site is just a search engine spammer page or his domain has been hijacked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.56.250.65 (talk) 01:43, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Suicide?

I'm hearing from some URS's (UnReliable Sources) that Crichton committed suicide. Are there any RS's saying this? 209.254.231.37 (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I havn't found any. hda3ku (talk) 14:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I read in the USA today that he was privately batting cancer, I'll probably check on it later. Cheers, RockManQ ^(talk) 23:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Cancer

If anyone finds out which type of cancer he had and died of, please add it to the article, along with the relevant category; all the sources I've seen just state cancer. When he was alive, I never knew he had cancer; did he keep it secret, or did any media sources report his cancer prior to his death? Does anyone know when his final illness was diagnosed? Werdnawerdna (talk) 01:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Various sites mention throat cancer. For example http://blogs.starnewsonline.com/default.asp?item=2282590 http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/screengrab/archive/tags/phil+nugent/default.aspx and http://dailyinklings.com/tag/michael-crichton/ . I don't know if these are independent sources. Mateat (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added that it was throat cancer, and provided a ref (not a blog, as they aren't reliable sources). Werdnawerdna (talk) 10:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Personal blogs are not considered RS. All of those mentioned are professional blogs, and can be considered reliable. Either way, I'm glad that detail was added.

-OrinR (talk) 04:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Height

Should the article mention the fact he was unusually tall? Whilst it is obviously unencyclopedic in the case of the large majority of people, he was so tall that for anyone who met him, it would have been, by far, the most noticeable thing about him. Whilst his notability and career had nothing to do with his height, it would, nevertheless, have had a major effect on his life. For instance, he would have had to duck when walking under doorways, would have often had difficulties fitting into seats when travelling (cars, planes, trains etc), and would have had to have had his bed and his clothes specially made. Werdnawerdna (talk) 10:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes he has said this that anything up to 6'6" is a blessing, anything more and he has described exactly the same problems as you have; that he found it a nuisance. He was notably tall. e.g nearer 7 feet tall, so quite reasonably should be mentioned I think particularly as this influenced his pen names. Count Blofeld 10:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this should be mentioned. It seems encyclopedic to me. There are a good many basketball stars that tall, but not too many famous authors come to mind. Definitely include it. A good source is all that's needed now.

-OrinR (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Using the Author's Picture

There is a decent quality picture available on Flickr, but unfortunately the photographer has released it under a non-commercial license. I'm betting that if more people take note and comment, this article could finally get a face. It can be found here.

-OrinR (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit?

Can anyone find a reference supporting the statement that Michael Crowley sued him for libel? I could not find any evidence that there was ever a lawsuit. Crowley's response in the New Republic makes no mention of a lawsuit. Aljo99 (talk) 14:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Statement was removed. Aljo99 (talk) 04:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Crichton article suggestions

In general there is a lot of attribution without support or references. A newspaper or magazine tabloid piece as a reference - which itself does not cite sources should be unacceptable (I do hope that Wiki has this policy).

The following sentence is nonsense, “Crichton later enrolled at Harvard Medical School when he began publishing work.” Is this cause and effect or was it coincidental? If the two are unrelated except chronologically they should be separate ideas and made clear. What does “he began his publishing work” mean? Was he a publisher? Do you intend to say something like: “Crichton studied medicine at the Harvard Medical School and obtained his M.D. in 1969. It was during this time that Crichton began writing and publishing (what was it… novels, short stories, medical papers in the Harvard Medical Review?).

“By this time Crichton had become unusually tall… By what time? According to his own words, he was approximately 6 feet 9 inches (2.06 meters) tall in 1997, a full 12 inches (30 centimetres) above average height in the United States.[8] [9]…” Yes, Crichton was tall. Reference (9) is a URL link to a published study on the average body height and body mass in the US. Is this necessary?

In reference to his height, while in medical school, he began writing novels under the pen names John Lange and Jeffery Hudson. Lange is a surname in Germany, meaning "tall one" and Sir Jeffrey Hudson was a famous 17th century dwarf in the court of Queen Consort Henrietta Maria of England. It may seem to be important but it doesn’t belong in this article.

It is clearly relevant to mention his height and how he stood out and also how this influenced his pen names The Bald One ^{White cat} 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The bold subheading “Alien’s cause global warming” creates a wrong impression of his actual tongue in cheek message .. in contrast to the discussion in the paragraph attached.

“The back cover of that book contains a picture of Michael and Douglas at a very young age taken by their mother “  It took me 3 readings to understand this.  I thought Crichton’s mother had taken them somewhere … … but you are saying it is a picture taken by their mother?  Is this an article about Michael Crichton or about their mother’s photo taking?  Is it important? 

I believe so much detail on Crichton’s literary techniques is a distraction and clutters the biography. Such as: “The use of author surrogate was a feature of Crichton's writings … Crichton used first-person; and ..“Some of Crichton's fiction used a literary technique called false document…; and “at the prose level, one of Crichton's trademarks was the single word paragraph: a dramatic question answered by a single-word sitting on its own as a paragraph…”

This is interesting for an undergrad course in creative writing but is it overdone – what purpose does it serve here … maybe write a separate article on Michael Crichton’s literary devices?

Ths section in fact has barely been started, but I agree once it has been fleshed out, then it would be feasible to start a new article on his literary techniques and have a condensed paragraph on this. Remember that this article was practically empty before and all I did was flesh it out. The Bald One ^{White cat} 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The entire section on “… In his 2006 novel Next (released November 28 of that year), Crichton introduced a character named "Mick Crowley" … and “… A real person named Michael Crowley is also a Yale graduate, and a senior editor of The New Republic, a left-leaning Washington D.C.-based political magazine. In March 2006, the real Crowley had written an article strongly critical of Crichton for his stance on global warming in State of Fear. [40] The NYT article this is based on is tabloid journalism unless there were formal charges made and taken to legal proceedings. Who is the real Crowley ??? Did Crichton ever fess up to writing the character about the journalist Crowley or was it ever pursued legally? Did Crichton refuse to comment – because Crowley’s accusation was true, or was it patently untrue, or was it not something worthy of wasting Crichton’s time on, or was it just a load of crap from someone with a grudge? This entire paragraph is inappropriate. Including this is tabloid journalism on top of tabloid journalism, unless the attribution has identifiable support.

As an adolescent, Crichton felt isolated with regard to his height and different to others. As an adult, he was acutely aware of his intellect which also left him often feeling alienated from people around him. These comments kind of drop out of the clear blue without any reason for being there… So what? OK tall people are talker than short people and really smart people are smarter than dumb people. It is understandable that tall smart person might have difficulty in conversation with short dumb people. So what?

It is significant because it affected his confidence and forces him to see psychiatrists and enlightenment gurus in the 1970s which resulted in him practising meditation for the rest of his life. The Bald One ^{White cat} 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It is also significant because it contributed to his sense of elitism. It helped blind him to his own demagoguery. Funny he never attracted an intellectual readership or much scientific agreement. 76.115.59.36 (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 20:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Spielberg’s tribute in the final paragraph is a nice closing and in my humble opinion an appropriate ending for a signifant individual who contributed to and affected many people. Davebecher (talk) 07:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Block quote

Does anyone think that the quote by Steven Spielberg in the Personal Life and Death section should be in blockquote I just noticed it but I wanted to be sure. Hda3ku (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes you can put it in block quote if you like Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

"Crichton's novel Jurassic Park and its sequel made into films would become a part of popular culture, with related parks established even in places such as Kletno, Poland"

Note the "EVEN". Even this compromises the neutrality of the article. As the writer is forwarding his view that Kletno is an unlikely place for such a theme park to appear. Shouldn't this be left up to the reader to decide? 90.214.110.160 (talk) 18:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done Problem addressed Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 22:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Michael Crichton on Kurt Vonnegut

He wrote a review for the New Republic (as J. Michael Crichton) in 1969 critiquing Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut. Perhaps this may be worth mentioning in the literary history? 67.165.40.79 (talk) 06:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Son

The article says "only one child" (daughter Taylor), but this is recently on his webiste: "...his wife Sherri, daughter Taylor, son John Michael, family and friends knew Michael Crichton..." Please, someone with better English then mine, add that piece of inforamtion into the "personal life" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.188.238.174 (talk) 15:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Category: Skeptic

Crichton is included in the category Skeptics. This seems to mostly be individuals who have criticised alternative medicine, psychics, Creationism etc., and I am not sure that environmental skepticism is quite the same thing. Fences and windows (talk) 20:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It should be understood that Crichton was an rational atheist - that is what is meant by a skeptic. He did not believe in anything supernatural. --Dane Sorensen (talk) 02:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The Lost World

"In 1994 he became the only creative artist to ever have works simultaneously charting at #1 in television, as creator of ER; and in film, with the adaptation of Jurassic Park; and in book sales, with The Lost World.[4]" can't be correct; The Lost World wasn't released unrikl 1996. Shouldn't his #1 book in 1994 be Disclosure? Jerkov (talk) 15:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Emmy Award and Peabody Award

I find it unusual to find someone's awards section listing they have won this or that award without stating what they were for. Could references to Crichton's Emmy and Peabody be added to the Reception --> Awards section? 71.234.215.133 (talk) 17:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. They were both for ER. Thanks. (64.252.124.238 (talk) 22:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC))

Jurassic Park III

sorry don't know how to edit wiki yet but I saw Jurassic park 3 in the novels made into movies section and thought I'd mention that he never wrote a Jurassic park 3 book. It was just a movie.216.164.14.249 (talk) 00:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)Reddevil

Possible new material for Michael Crowley section

On Crichton's website in the Q&A, he mentions that he sometimes disguises people he doesn't like in his books while portraying them in a negative light. From: [8] "Once or twice, I've wanted to pay somebody back so I put them in a book in an unflattering way. But they're usually disguised so that even the person wouldn't know." Just wondering if this is something we should include in the section about Michael Crowley. It's somewhat suggestive that Chrichton did in fact do a hit job on Crowley in my opinion, but it could be interpreted either way, so I thought I would ask before including it. --Wikilost (talk) 04:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Andromeda mutation

Article states: "The microbe, code named "Andromeda", mutates with each growth cycle, changing its biologic properties."

This may be inaccurate, depending upon what we mean by growth cycle. During the course of the story, Andromeda grows (get larger) without mutating. Late in the story, Andromeda does mutate (loses blood-clotting qualities, gains platic-eating qualities), but this mutation is not (to my recollection, anyway) related to growth.

Karl gregory jones (talk) 17:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Speeches

I think the speeches section needs to be elaborated upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.61.194 (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I think it should be recommended for cleanup/citations. Duben (talk) 23:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, this section is very clunky. No citations, no context. It should be expanded upon or removed. ThomasAndrewNimmo (talk) 19:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Citations needed

I'm sorry, but this article is almost completely unreadable due to numerous "citations needed" notes. I know that it may not be all backed up with citations, but seriously, does every single sentence in this article need citations? It renders the article unreadable.70.112.5.150 (talk) 07:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Speeches

Do his speeches really need their own section? They all appear to be from the last ten years of his life, and mostly focus on global warming/environmental controversies. Unless we can get some larger depth about his career as a "speaker" in his life, or add more variety, I think it gives undue weight to the importance his views on global warming. --Dudeman5685 (talk) 21:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Weird beliefs

Do any of the sources mention how strange it is then he had no problem believing in mysticism, out-of-body experiences, fortune-telling, and supernatural entities,[9] but that he couldn't rationalize anthropogenic climate change? Viriditas (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Crichton explained his views in simple, non-technical language in numerous public speeches, talks, and debates. Crichton was not a denier of anthropogenic climate change. What Crichton was skeptical about was the extent of the human contribution, believing that most of the Earth's warming was outside of human control (i.e. influenced by the Sun, natural weather phenomenon); he was also skeptical about the long-term predictions of the Earth's weather. So while I'm sure you can find sources that suggest Crichton "couldn't rationalize anthropogenic climate change," those sources would be misrepresenting Crichton's actual views. --76.121.180.74 (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Home Invasion

Michael Crichton was tied up at gun point and robbed inside of his home, and he said that that influenced his views. Why is such a large thing not mentioned in the article, considering that it had such a large impact on his works?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.176.152.230 (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible resemblance to John Carter

I in theory somewhat believe that the character John Carter in ER in which Michael Crichton created is a somewhat accurate biography of said creator. it may have been that way as the character was created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yugioht43 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Chrichton As He Is

Please, leave large segments on global warming out of this article. An encyclopedia has a primary mandate to report the facts and only secondarily, if at all, to comment on, position or digest them. Just because he does not agree with the point of view of most, is no reason to bog down an article concerning Mr. Chrichton with cluttering contextualizing facts and data on said issue. One simple line could serve to indicate that his view is not in harmony with mainstream thought. Thems the breaks. This happens in civilized democratic, non-fascist society. Important, even quite sympathetic people get to disagree with you and you must accept it like a grown-up.

Furthermore, Crichton's view in no way constitute a fringe belief. It is an extremely common belief among ordinary Americans. Obviously, those who are arguing that Chrichton is promulgating weird, fringe ideas seem to be totally indifferent to ordinary people's ideas. I despise the way that Wikipedia is used as a socio-political weapon to advance personal and collective agendas and not the tool for the dissemination of knowledge and awareness that the founder intended it to be. It is obvious that Mr. Crichton, albeit perhaps playing an important role in international discourse on the subject, is not primarily known for disputing Anthropogenic global warming. Rather he is most recognized for his many literary and personal accomplishments. Therefore, it is highly inappropriate that any biographical article on him would give so much time and space to what is essentially a tertiary concern.VaniNY (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Since when does two sentences count as "large segments"? The sentences were carefully constructed to convey exactly the points on which Crichton disagreed with the scientific viewpoint. And fringe belief is not defined w.r.t "ordinary Americans" (a mythical beast rarely seen in the real world). Even if 30% of "ordinary" Americans believed the planet was less than 10,000 years old, it would still be a clear WP:FRINGE belief because it runs contrary to virtually every piece of scientific evidence and the overwhelming consensus of actual scientists. The same is true for claims about AGW that run contrary to overwhelming scientific consensus. Glaucus (talk) 16:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Glaucus is correct, and to be clear, WP:UNDUE actually requires this material (the stuff VaniNY wanted to remove) to be included. See above talk. I think I'm going to stick some hidden text in the relevant section of the article cautioning editors to read WP:UNDUE. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:06, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Proper treatment of mainstream view on climate change

The article contains multiple paragraphs describing Crichton's views on climate change, aspects of which are contrary to the scientific consensus. In such cases, per WP:UNDUE (see especially 2nd para), we need to make clear what the mainstream view is (which, per NPOV, is the same as scientific consensus). The article as it stands (version 505782339) does not do so.

I made some edits along these lines a couple of weeks ago, but they were reverted. I'm restoring them, with explanation here.

First edit: I added just two sentences (one short paragraph) explaining the sci consensus. These were taken nearly verbatim from Scientific opinion on climate change. Here they are (you can see them with wikilinks and footnotes at the 3rd para under this section of an older revision):

The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and it is more than 90% certain that humans are causing it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels.[65][66][67][68] Scientific consensus holds that on balance the impacts of global warming will be significantly negative, especially with relatively large amounts of warming.[69]

Here is the diff removing the above; I'm undoing it. (Note that it looks really long only because of the extensive footnotes with embedded quotes.)

Second edit: I changed some wording to accord with NPOV, specifically to differentiate Chrichton's opinion from accepted fact (or established sci consensus). It sounds a bit more awkward, and can be improved, but should not have been reverted. For example (emphasis mine):

• original wording: "[Chrichton argued] ... why we are morally unjustified in spending vast sums on this speculative issue [i.e. man-made climate change] ..."

• edited for NPOV: "[Chrichton argued] ... why he believed societies are morally unjustified in spending vast sums on what Chrichton said is a speculative issue [i.e. man-made climate change]"

Here is the diff undoing the above fix and similar ones. I'm undoing it, and then improving the awkward wording of my original edit.

Hope that's clear enough. regards, Middle 8 (talk)

P.S. Might as well just paste in the 2nd para of WP:UNDUE, since it's so perfectly relevant here:

"In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. For instance, articles on historical views such as Flat Earth, with few or no modern proponents, may briefly state the modern position, and then go on to discuss the history of the idea in great detail, neutrally presenting the history of a now-discredited belief. Other minority views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. See fringe-theory guidance and the NPOV FAQ."

Unlike the earth's approximate shape, climate change is complicated, so some degree of explanation is needed. The two sentences I've restored are the very least we can do, and as a bonus the footnotes add useful detail but don't clutter up the article. --Middle 8 (talk) 05:20, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

We don't need to correct Crichton's views, just report them. The only issue of weight would be if there were controversy over what his views were. There is not. μηδείς (talk) 05:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, you're simply incorrect about due weight, and it doesn't sound like you've read and/or understood the paragraph above from WP:UNDUE. Please take the time to do so. Due weight does not simply mean reporting his views, it means placing them in context of the mainstream view, and making sure that the mainstream view is correctly stated. That doesn't mean that the minority view (Crichton's) can't receive more coverage, but it also means that the majority view must receive enough coverage to make clear what it is and how Crichton's views diverge. --Middle 8 (talk) 06:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not a viewpoint that those were his statements, actions, and beliefs. I don't believe that there is any dispute regarding and as such there is no opposing viewpoint to disseminate. 98.240.229.140 (talk) 05:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

That's not what WP:Fringe is about. His viewpoints and claims in the speech are contrary to well-established and accepted scientific facts. It is undue and inappropriate to leave them without putting them into appropriate context. I'm reverting your edits. Glaucus (talk) 14:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Is it really even necessary to devote such a large portion of the article discussing this? Crichton was an author, not a scientist. Jmj713 (talk) 02:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "this", Jmj? His views, or the balancing of same with the mainstream view? Sounds like you mean the former, and if so, yes, that might be prune-able; it does sound a bit like an effort to persuade the reader. But if you mean the latter, please note that the material added is only about a paragraph. regards, Middle 8 (talk) 02:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I meant the former. In fact, I'd prefer to see the entire Speeches section pared down into clearer prose for a number of reasons, one of which would be to kill lots of whitespace and needless sections that bloat the TOC. Again, Crichton was primarily an author, and any notable speeches he gave can simply be noted and contextualized in several paragraphs. There's no need to have this large and untidy section. Also, the Reception section again deals with his scientific views, while in reality it should be about his literary reception. Jmj713 (talk) 03:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good, agree -- are you interested in doing this? If not, we'll have to wait, because I haven't got the time, unfortunately. That said, to the extent we do mention his pseudoscientific views in any detail, we do need (per above) to keep the para starting with: "The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming....". It's from the lede of Scientific opinion on climate change, is impeccably referenced and is perfect as a short description of the mainstream view. cheers, Middle 8 (talk) 07:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

If there were disputes over what Crichton's view are we'd show both sides--that's when one "balances"--but we don't "balance" people's views with the "truth"--we just present their views. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Wrong, Medeis. We discussed this above, so please take care not to WP:IDHT. Balancing minority views with the mainstream, scientific-consensus view is EXACTLY what we do on WP. Just read WP:UNDUE, especially the second paragraph, which I pasted in above, and which I just bolded since editors keep missing it. Note that this is from NPOV itself, so it's policy, not guideline. We can't let WP become a platform for fringe views, especially harmful pseudoscience that minimizes the urgent need to adopt policies to reduce greenhouse gases and keep the planet (somewhat) habitable. --Middle 8 (talk) 05:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You are right of course if this was an article about climate change. But having that paragraph embedded in a biography of a person's life, correcting him that"The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and it is more than 90% certain that" seems editorializing, and unencyclopedic- i.e. ask yourself if you would expect to see it in an encyclopedia entry for Michael Crichton, not if it's true or false.100.42.244.22 (talk) 12:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

It may seem like editorializing, but it's simply WP's way of handling minority views. Maybe Brittanica wouldn't do it the same way, but the broad consensus on WP is that this is how to apply NPOV. To the extent that ANY article specifically relates to a minority view (as this one does, in some detail), NPOV requires that the majority view be made clear. Just because this is a bio doesn't change that. I see no reason to ignore the rules on this: climate change is an area ripe for NPOV violations, so we have to be sure to do it right. You know what, just read that bolded para above pasted from WP:UNDUE; there is no point in repeating policy. Enough WP:IDHT, please. --Middle 8 (talk) 13:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't tell us that disagree with you that we're "WP:ignoring the rules," or "WP:refusing the point". It's just a friendly disagreement; try to be nice to me, maybe consider the point we're making. I know about undue weight and majority view- I have grasped those points, trust me, and I even agree with you that the pseudoscience is harmful. The issue that several people have advanced is a *different point,* that this is a biography on Michael Crichton, and as you put it yourself, corrections of his opinions would appear biased if they were in Britannica. This can't be explained away with a blanket waiver that Wikipedia is "different" from Britannica-- that's obviously true, but there's no difference in the sense that both strive to be proper encyclopedias that read smoothly without editor opinion or bias. Am I wrong? You'll notice that the article Joe Camel does not come with a disclaiming statement about "The scientific consensus on tobacco use," and especially not biographies.100.42.244.22 (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No animosity intended whatsover -- I'm glad to be having a discussion with an editor who is level-headed and understands the science and WP generally. I'm just trying to point out that you aren't addressing my argument that WP:UNDUE is unambiguous and applies to all articles. You've stated that the material appears biased and out of place, and I've pointed to policy that says that such material belongs in any article. So far you haven't engaged on that; although you've said your point is different, UNDUE's specifics still pertain. But that doesn't mean your concerns about tone are meritless: we could address them by working on flow and wording while keeping the ideas (and references) in the disputed paragraph.

The majority (sci consensus) view does belong here. Joe Camel doesn't actually state a minority view, so there's nothing to refute. Peter Duesberg and Kary Mullis, for example, do, because they are proponents of AIDS denialism. Unless you have an argument refuting the application of WP:UNDUE in such articles, how about we stipulate the basic substance and move the discussion to improving style? --Middle 8 (talk) 17:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The way I read WP:UNDUE, it seems to be about articles that specifically concern an issue, and about the actual positions. This article is not about viewpoints concerning climate change, it's about a person who happened to have certain viewpoints. Stating that a person held a viewpoint is not placing a significant weight for that viewpoint. The criticisms of Crichton's position are already present and clearly stated, along with the fact that the views of these critics concerning the environment is the accepted consensus. I cannot see how there is any real value adding more bits like the one after the Intelligence Squared debate every time his views are mentioned, especially when those views are themselves overstated (whether there's a 90% certainty is irrelevant, the general consensus is not that humans caused the current warming trend, only that human activity was a major influence). The opposed viewpoint is already clearly stated in the criticisms, so shouldn't the criticisms reported be sufficient counterweight for an indifferent report of what a person had said and advocated? Undue weight shouldn't be an excuse to place the same information repeatedly in several locations on a page. Frankly, it makes even mainstream views seem like UW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.169.2 (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

You misread WP:UNDUE: "In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained." To the extent that Crichton's article relates to his minority viewpoints, that requirement applies. Of course if his views were not notable we could simply leave them out, but he's too prominently contrarian for that. What you suggest about segregating criticism goes against WP:STRUCTURE, another section of NPOV policy. Oh, and I think you're wrong about the consensus, though estimates vary. . . dave souza, talk 22:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm just saying that if the report on a particular incident already makes it relatively clear that his view is opposed to the mainstream, such as when he appeared in a debate and it already clearly states that his opponents presented and represented the scientific consensus, then it doesn't seem necessary to add a blurb afterward stating that such and such is the consensus. Just note within the section that his opponents presented the consensus data and represented the mainstream despite his relative success, and let that be that. It doesn't seem necessary to add specific external claims after every mention of his view. As I said, it's quite possible to go into excess in trying to show that he's the minority opinion.

And concerning the statistics, every source that I have ever seen with any real credibility has stated that there are a number of factors that influence the upward trend in global temperature means, several of which are completely out of human control. That isn't to say that they say that human contribution is a small portion of that influence, only that they assert that human activity is a major influence, frequently the strongest or one of the strongest. I'm not saying that the consensus doesn't say that mankind is largely responsible, only that it's not correct to actually state that scientists say humans cause it. Similarly, generally predictions of future outcomes or the cumulative effect of future events are not stated as "the effects will be this", but rather that there's a high probability that this will be the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.169.2 (talk) 21:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Personal Life

First bullet point. Crichton believed in god. Then we get a footnote. quality like this is why I stopped editing on wikipedia. It's fine to say this, but why is it all alone as the first bullet point under personal life. Sounds like the person who put it there wants this as the primary information point on every article about a person. culture wars, the wikipedia edition! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.44.89.11 (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

90% Certainty of AGW

Can someone explain to me: 1. why this is necessary in an article about a SciFi author; and 2. acknowledge this highly likely to be misinterpreted by the layman. From the context and wording, the layman would conclude that "mainstream" science is 90% certain that global warming is caused by human activity. That's not what the error analysis says, and nor is that what the error analysis is intended to do. In reading this thread it appears there was a great deal of debate on inclusion or not, as well as the potential for misinterpretation. It seems its inclusion only serves to show Chrichton views were not aligned with so-called mainstream science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.4.99.188 (talk) 11:36, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

RfC on treatment of mainstream view on climate change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should Michael_Crichton#Speeches include a description of the scientific consensus by adding the following statement after his views?
[This question was originally worded and answered as: "Should we correct Michael Crichton's views in Michael_Crichton#Speeches to reflect the scientific consensus by adding the following statement after his views?" μηδείς (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)]
"The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and it is more than 90% certain that humans are causing it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels. Scientific consensus holds that on balance the impacts of global warming will be significantly negative, especially with relatively large amounts of warming."? 100.42.244.22 (talk) 12:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)(10/28/12)

The section just above, named "Proper treatment of mainstream view on climate change", contains the relevant arguments. The paragraph under consideration ("The scientific consensus...") is a reliable, concise statement of the majority view: it is taken from Scientific opinion on climate change, reflects broad editorial consensus, and is impeccably referenced. Because this article specifically relates to Crichton's minority views on climate change, NPOV requires that we clearly state what the mainstream view is, and differentiate it from the minority.

The relevant section of NPOV is the second paragraph of WP:UNDUE, which is pasted in above in bold. The objections to keeping the edit in question (which looks a lot longer than it is due to extensive ref's) are vague and apparently based on aesthetic preference. But NPOV is clear here. WP has an obligation to get this right; a lot of readers remain sadly misinformed about climate change. --Middle 8 (talk) 14:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

NPOV here applies to views regarding Crichton--were his books good or bad, etc. Not about whether his views themselves are correct. If there were some dispute, with some people saying he was a warm-monger, and others a skeptic, NPOV would apply in covering both views. But there is no disagreement over his views in this matter. NPOV regarding gloabal warming belongs in the global warming article, not here. Your argument would mean that in every article on people who were religious we should print the scientific correction that there is no afterlife, etc. That is a total misconstrual of the policy. μηδείς (talk) 15:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

@Medeis: WP:UNDUE is talking about scientific minority views. That's why it wouldn't apply to Joe Camel or religious figures, and why it does apply to Peter Duesberg and Kary Mullis. The latter articles say very clearly that their ideas that HIV doesn't cause AIDS is unscientific, as they should: it would be unencyclopedic NOT to give such context. Here, all we have to say is that Crichton was a purveyor of ideas about climate change that are not scientifically accepted. That's the principle; the rest is detail. Do you disagree? --Middle 8 (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• Undue Weight The only thing that should be mentioned is one sentence saying that he criticizes the consensus. Us providing an entire paragraph of editorial comment is synthesis and undue weight. The mere fact that we ask whether we should "correct" his view shows the inappropriateness of this edit. We do not correct people's views, we present them. The article is about Crichton. The synthetic paragraph doesn't even list other's direct criticisms of Crichton, which might be admissible if their views were notable--i.e., criticisms by notable authors in published books or prestigious periodicals. But what we have now is the cobbled-together opinion of certain wikipedia editors with refs hung on for decoration--the very essence of synthesis. It is also not true that there is a consensus that humans are "causing" global warming--just contributing to it. But that is a separate matter. All we can say is that Crichton has criticized the consensus, and pipe a link from consensus to the relevant article--and that is indeed all that is needed. μηδείς (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not synthesis when NPOV says that any article relating to minority views must clearly say what the majority view is and differentiate it from the minority views. You are ignoring what UNDUE is saying. --Middle 8 (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Asking if we should "correct" his views was clearly a loaded question, and not appropriate for an RFC. I don't see anyone saying that other than the editor who wrote the RFC, who is clearly opposed based on their previous edits. Glaucus (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Glaucus, my apologies for bias in the RFC title, that was not my intention. Title now changed: "Should we correct Michael Crichton's views" to --> "Should Michael_Crichton#Speeches include a description of the scientific consensus." I think that's fairly neutral. Unfamiliar with wikipedia, but not trying to be sneaky. My opposition is noted above as you mentioned.100.42.244.22 (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't mean to be accusatory, I was just annoyed that the wording was being used for cheap rhetorical points by Medeis. Your new wording is much better. Glaucus (talk)

Changing the wording of the question after it has been answered is highly irregular. And you will note that I was able to address the issue without talking about cheap annoying stunts by anyone. You'd do better, Glaucus, to keep your comments on the topic at hand. μηδείς (talk) 19:35, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's quite common, and even suggested by WP:RFC if the original wording was not neutral. And I'll leave it to others to judge whether your use of the word "correct" was a cheap rhetorical trick. You'd do better, Medeis, to follow your own advice. Glaucus (talk) 20:00, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

• I absolutely agree there should be no views corrections. As I mentioned in the section above, I'd like to see this entire section greatly reduced in size, both for ease of reading and to get rid of any "need" to balance perceived minority views. I agree that other biography articles don't seem to push any one POV on controversial topics, and this one shouldn't either. Jmj713 (talk) 17:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not a POV push; it's something the reader deserves to know. WP treats sci consensus as equal to NPOV, not "just another view". But I agree with you and Glaucus that we should prune the section; the article shouldn't give a platform to pseudoscientific bullshit in any more detail than it has to. --Middle 8 (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree about whether we need balancing material, but I agree that the easiest (and best) solution is just to chop that section up and drop most of it. It's not easy to read, kind of off-topic and almost certainly WP:UNDUE for Crichton's fame. Glaucus (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I object to any removal or diminishing of Crichton's views from his article. He was a trained medical doctor before he was a published author. His views on this subject were published and presented at public events. So clearly they're notable. If something is not easy to read (which I didn't find it to be), you fix it, not delete it. And one sentence on the majority view is enough. A paragraph is too much. Those wanting more will look at the articles on climate change, etc. No one's going to change their mind on the subject because they only saw the Crichton article. Jonathan Hemlock (talk) 22:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Crichton was full of shit and his views need to be depicted as the fringe nonsense that they are. This per NPOV. --Middle 8 (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I fail to see what medical training has to do with his views on climage change. If you're suggesting that his views should somehow be granted weight because he's a "scientist" (even though medical doctors are not scientists), that's clearly wrong. And the "paragraph" is actually just two sentences, each one addressing one of the points on which he disagrees with the scientific consensus: (1) whether climate change is happening and is anthropogenic and (2) whether this change will have wide-ranging and destructive consequences. I really don't see how you could ask for a more direct and accurate summary of the scientific consensus and where they disagree. Glaucus (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The point is he's not "just an author", as some have suggested. This article is on Crichton, not climate change. A WP article on a person should accurately include his views, if they're notable, which in this case they clearly are. Your paragraph may be two sentences, but they are rather long, especially the first. It seems to me the second is unnecessary in an article on Crichton, but I'll let others hash out how to edit it. Jonathan Hemlock (talk) 00:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE says that articles relating to minority views should clearly say what the majority view is, and differentiate it from the minority views. --Middle 8 (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. This is an article about Crichton, and there is no minority view as to what his criticism of the scientific consensus is. And please dont assign yourself an entire new section unless you want everyone to do so. Section heads are for different topics, not for every sophomore who has an opinion. μηδείς (talk) 07:40, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

@Medeis: Alright, let's de-escalate this. I addressed your objection with this edit, specifically the comment about AIDS denialists Duesberg and Mullis, whose articles quite naturally point out where their views are unscientific. As I said, I'm open to compromise by rewording here, so let's collaborate somehow. Please don't diss me or gratuitously unformat my comments. We should be collegial, both as WP editors and as scientists (love the animal pics on your page). I'm restoring the subsection I created below and improving the title; it's a logical break in the discussion and is completely fine. Have a look at WP:TPO and your recent block [10] for editing others' comments before getting hasty and undoing it again. Let's figure out a common-sense way to do here what is done with articles about AIDS denialists and the like. --Middle 8 (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment from uninvolved editor - I was invited to comment by the RfC bot. I've read the RfC and the section in the article. I think that the article should have a brief (one sentence) mention of the fact that "the position he took in the debate was contrary to scientific consensus" (alternate wording "... contrary to mainstream scientific views"). However, the "is contrary" statement should not include specific details like "90%" because those are better off the in the climate change article; nor should the statement be lengthy. --Noleander (talk) 14:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

@Noleander -- agree it can be brief (note that the current text has two sentences, not one), but per WP:UNDUE, the degree to which we discuss the mainstream view must be proportional to the extent to which a fringe view is discussed. Obviously it's not a direct proportion (not unless we're just balancing one sentence with another sentence), but still, the more we get into Crichton's views, the more we'll probably have to clarify where he goes off track and why. In light of that, I don't think the present treatment is excessive. If anything, it seems a bit short. --Middle 8 (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• (I am another uninvolved editor, I saw this on a talk page) Yes, a brief note is necessary to explain the relationship to the mainstream view / scientific consensus / whatever you call it. I don't see the current text as excessively lengthy, compared to the space dedicated to explaining Crichton's view. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
• Remove until better sources are found. - This is a tricky issue to be sure, but I really think we need to calm down and put this in perspective. People don't come to the page on Michael Crichton to learn about the global warming debate. They come here to learn his views. If his views were criticized, we can include those criticisms, but only if sources make those criticisms and connections. We can't go doing our own research as to why Crichton is wrong and then add it to the article. That is obviously WP:OR. I'd be shocked if there wasn't someone who criticized Crichton about this. Adding those criticisms of his views are fair, but let's not try to overwhelm the article with our hatred of global warming skeptics. We need to consider how important criticisms of Crichton's views are to the man himself. I think per weight, any potential criticisms of his views should take up fewer sentences than his actual views. I think we can satisfy the global warming warriors by linking to the article that handles the debate. There's always the temptation to battle out every controversial issue on every page with the most insignificant reference to it, but we have neither the authority nor the space to do that. Hope that helps. 159.1.15.34 (talk) 17:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT requires that Crichton's fringe views be shown in the context of majority expert opinion, and his views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. It's best to show what reliable secondary sources have said about his views, but see the discussion below about showing fringe science in relation to mainstream views. I'll agree that if no mainstream secondary sources have discussed his views and shown how they have been received by expert opinion then maybe we should remove his non-notable views. . . dave souza, talk 00:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

As I said, it is definitely a tricky issue. But I think doing our own research entirely independent of Crichton related sources is clearly original research. I really don't think we need to battle through which policy is more important, WP:OR or WP:WEIGHT. There have to be criticisms of Crichton's views. Those criticisms can say all we want to say about global warming. Find those sources and the WP:OR concerns are alleviated. 159.1.15.34 (talk) 15:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Specifics on WP:UNDUE and climate change

1. Crichton was a notable climate change "skeptic" and his views are relevant to the article.

2. WP:UNDUE (itself part of NPOV) pertains directly here, since the article relates to minority views. Most relevant is the 2nd para, pasted here:

"In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. For instance, articles on historical views such as Flat Earth, with few or no modern proponents, may briefly state the modern position, and then go on to discuss the history of the idea in great detail, neutrally presenting the history of a now-discredited belief. Other minority views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. See fringe-theory guidance and the NPOV FAQ."

3. WP:UNDUE says that articles relating to minority views must clearly state the majority view, and differentiate it from said minority views.

If we agree on these three points (which I believe are obvious), the article must convey the idea that "Crichton's views were X and the scientific consensus is Y." (That's the minumum; we might add more stuff, e.g. about how his views were received, in line with WP:UNDUE.)

Anyone disagreeing with this needs (IMO) to explain why NPOV somehow doesn't apply to this article. Some of the objections I've read don't appear to take into account what WP:UNDUE is clearly saying. We can and should debate how to word the article, but the majority view -- the ideas and references in the disputed paragraph, expressed in whatever wording works in context -- has got to be included as long as NPOV exists in its present form. Thoughts? --Middle 8 (talk) 07:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

You tell someone else in the above section Please don't diss me, yet a bit above that you posted Crichton was full of shit and his views need to be depicted as the fringe nonsense that they are. Doesn't seem to me you can be much of a judge on neutrality or WP:NPOV, especially since you already said the easiest (and best) solution is just to chop that section up and drop most of it. This article is on Crichton, not climate change, his views were notable, so they should not be reduced, minimized or deleted from an article on him. Jonathan Hemlock (talk) 22:30, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

@Jonathon Hemlock -- I'm not being uncivil to other editors or biased in my edits. I am stating my opinions on talk pages, which is OK in this context (Crichton being a public figure and no longer alive, so no BLP issues). I despise global warming pseudoscience, and as it happens Wikipedia's NPOV policy coincides with my views about how it should be treated encyclopedically, so it's all good. Please remember, if you're going to question an editor's neutrality or civility, do so with respect to their content edits and interactions with other editors (this per WP:NPA). BTW, it wasn't me who said "the easiest (and best) solution is just to chop that section up and drop most of it": I think Crichton's views should be given due weight (whatever that is, per sec sources; it seems on the high side, but dunno), and then handled per WP:UNDUE, with ample reference to the mainstream view. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

If his views were notable, they will have been discussed and analysed by reliable sources which show the context of the overwhelming majority view on the topics. Wikipedia is not a place for posting fringe views shown out of context. It may help that Chris Mooney has made some reference to these views,[11] "Throughout his speech, moreover, Inhofe made constant reference to a work of fiction: Michael Crichton's new novel, State of Fear. Calling Crichton a "scientist" -- actually, he's an M.D. -- Inhofe credited the author with telling "the real story about global warming" to the public. In fact, Crichton's new book misrepresents climate science nearly as badly as Inhofe does. Inhofe further suggested that Crichton's depictions of environmentalists -- as fear-mongers who hype the possibility of disasters to bring in donations -- show "art imitating life." Actually, Crichton's notion of a global eco-terrorist conspiracy, aided and abetted by leading environmental organizations, seems more than a tad conspiratorial."

I'm cautious about how good a source that is for a BLP, but we certainly shouldn't represent Crichton's science fiction as having any scientific credibility.

Unfortunately it's paywalled, but can someone see what this says about Crichton's views? Kerr, R. A. (2006). "CLIMATE CHANGE: Politicians Attack, but Evidence for Global Warming Doesn't Wilt". Science. 313 (5786): 421–421. doi:10.1126/science.313.5786.421. PMID 16873615. could be useful. . . dave souza, talk 22:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

@dave souza - With regard to Crichton's views having been discussed by RS's, sure it's good to cite those, but we don't have to rely solely on them to say what the mainstream view is. We get to do that ourselves. Sounds like SYN, but in this case, it's simply NPOV -- it's how we handle fringe stuff. (You may well know this; just saying for everyone's sake.) This has been discussed a lot in RfC's and Arbcom cases involving fringe topics, especially fringe science.

The basic idea is that in order to properly cover fringe views, we don't have to sit around waiting for a reliable source to say "this view is fringe and here is why and here is the mainstream view" (because not every fringe view gets the full mainstream rebuttal treatment: qualified sources have better things to do than rebut every piece of pseudoscience that comes along). It's nice if we can do that, but we don't have to -- we can just say what the mainstream view is. That's the way global consensus has evolved. So that's why just coming out and saying "the mainstream view is....." looks SYN-ish, but is really an accepted form of NPOV.

There is currently a source cited criticizing Crichton's views, but it looks too much like a difference of opinion, which is why I added the paragraph being debated in the RfC. BTW, this isn't a BLP anymore -- Crichton died in 2008. That source looks fine from what you cited & quoted; can't access full text or even much of an abstract. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair points, I'll have to bring myself up to speed with Arbcom cases on fringe science. Of course this falls under WP:ARBCC and my tendency is to err on the side of caution. Having said that, the section had a ludicrously bad source with "Swiftboating" Marc Morano's blog being used to describe a RealClimate posting, so have sourced it to the original with a bit more info about Crichton. It's good to show the mainstream, ideally it should be more closely directed to the point of the various sections. Many of which need improvement. . dave souza, talk 10:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

@dave souza - Agreed. BTW, I'm pretty sure that the relevant ArbCom rulings (in general, not necessarily climate change specifically) have by now been integrated into UNDUE and FRINGE and the like. Middle 8 (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• No Correction - he says what he says. Leave it at that. --Nouniquenames 19:56, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.