Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics)

This discussion was begun at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nicholas J. Hopper, where the early history of the discussion can be found.

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See Wikipedia:Notability (academics)/Precedents for a collection of related AfD debates and related information from the early and pre- history of this guideline (2005-2006) and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive 2 for lists of all sorted deletions regarding academics since 2007.

Jeff Da Costa

Hi, not sure this is the right space for this so please help me out. There is an academic turned whistleblower who caused national scandal in Luxembourg bearing his name. Events are related to the deadly European floods of 2021 and the gridlock in the Early Warning Systems. Sources below: [1]https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/19/world/netherlands-germany-flood-defense-warning-system-intl-cmd/index.html[2]https://delano.lu/article/researcher-claims-he-got-fired Foxhiding (talk) 16:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The links are below:

Jeff Da Costa

The Conversation

CNN Foxhiding (talk) 16:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The Case of Jeff Da Costa

More detail on the above

more.. Foxhiding (talk) 16:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Foxhiding: Subject certainly fails this notability guideline. I don't think you could make a case for WP:GNG, either, which is what you're really asking for. WP:BIO1E applies, too. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

A PhD student with only one publication in Google Scholar, in a middle position in the author list, does not meet WP:PROF, not even #C7 because that's for people who are quoted broadly as an established expert on a topic through multiple events and stories, not so much for people who get involved in a media storm without yet being an established expert. So if he is to be notable, it could only be through GNG, but it seems likely that WP:BIO1E applies. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

An option that might be better than creating a page about the person might be a page about the scandal. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with Tryptofish and David Eppstein on this. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 00:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

agreed as well with points made above.

Maybe include here [3]https://w.wiki/9jk4 Foxhiding (talk) 13:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed addition in C6 explanation

Vice chancellors of Central Universities (India) are notable per WP:NPROF C6, however, more often than not, their pages are marked for deletion (in good faith) by unaware editors/reviewers. It is therefore requested that a one line note may please be added to say that Vice chancellors of Central Universities in India are notable.

Examples: Talk:Sanjay Srivastava (academician),

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tankeshwar Kumar where I said -- ...the VC (highest functionary) heading a Central (Federal) public university. Appointed by the President of India after open-applications, search and selection by the Ministry of Education... Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- User4edits (T) 16:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The VC position is largely a political one in much of current-day India and has little to do with academic (or even administrative) excellence. Automatic notability is best not included anywhere. Shyamal (talk) 16:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I will push the other way and suggest the deletion of C6 completely. The wording (and I think consensus) is that Deans and Provosts don't qualify just by virtue of their position, I don't see why anyone else should. They should either separately qualify for WP:NPROF by virtue of their academic career, or qualify by a general notability criteria.

To give one contemporary example to illustrate, I would not support a notability claim for Richard Corcoran based upon his appointment as President of the New College of Florida -- he qualifies as notable outside of academia and independent of this appointment. There have been several other cases where non-academics have been appointed as executive heads of universities or other academic institutions, some less contentious but none should automatically qualify IMHO. Ldm1954 (talk) 18:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Additional context: in general notability is not inherited, WP:INHERITORG, and the heads of academic institutions are really CEOs so their position notability is more WP:NBUSINESSPERSON. Ldm1954 (talk) 19:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I think (for @Ldm1954) that if you want to make a change to the notability criteria here it would be more helpful to bring an example of someone who qualifies under WP:PROF that you don't think is notable in general, rather than someone you agree is notable but disagree is notable because of his work in academia. It is unlikely to move the community to say that these criteria are broken, but the people qualifying under it are still notable. He has absolutely been in the news hundreds of times for this role. Whether that qualifies under this rule or another is largely immaterial and not something I want to put my effort to nitpick. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 09:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

As the criteria is currently written, it is correct that vice chancellors of major Indian universities meet C6. Curbon7 (talk) 22:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of C5

The rationale of C5 is I think more than a little outdated. It was based upon the days when only a few full professors had named chairs. However, now in many major university at least 1/3 and often more Profs have them, named chairs have proved to be good fund raising tools. Even Oxford and Cambridge, who used to have only 2-3 "Professors" now have Profs of almost everything. KISS principle, anyone truly notable for C5 should have other means of verification so we don't need it. Ldm1954 (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree. There are some historic and prestigious chairs (Rouse Ball, Lucasian, Regius...) but nowadays it seems like every large department at every large university has at least a couple. This criteria would be redundant for truly notable academics, since they would only have a chair because they already passed one of the other criteria. So seems like this criteria will only introduce 'false positives' when universities make up new chair positions for marketing, or reward academics who are simply good at fund-raising or politicking. WikiNukalito (talk) 20:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The rationale may be outdated (as for C6 in the section above) in the Western world, but it may not be outside of it. It is hard enough for even the most notable academics outside the West to get published and cited in journals that are indexed online. and the other criteria of this guideline, without people here automatically saying that their universities are "minor" simply because of where they are located. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this refers to positions like Vice Chancellor or heads of large departments. If anything, western Universities seem more likely to invent the Bob Roberts Professorship in Whateverology precisely in order to make their academics appear more notable. WikiNukalito (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What if we add a date cutoff to account for this, like "was a named chair prior to 2015", or whatever year the recognition became discernibly devalued? BD2412 T 01:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

There are many kinds of named chairs. Named chairs given to junior faculty to give them a step up, named chairs given to administrators as a slush fund, named chairs given to people who hold some kind of service position, the named chairs that every single full professor in the German system gets, ... and then there are also named chairs reserved for faculty of outstanding scholarly achievement, beyond that of an ordinary full professor. It is only the last kind of chair that C5 is supposed to cover. "Distinguished professor" is not the same thing as a named chair but it also means roughly the same thing, a step beyond ordinary full professor. Similarly, Canada Research Chairs come in two tiers, tier 2 is for more junior faculty, and only tier 1 really corresponds to the intended meaning of C5. I would be opposed to getting rid of C5 altogether; I think that using it for distinguished professors and tier 1 Canada Research Chairs, for instance, is still valuable. But if there's some way of clarifying that only certain named chairs should count, I'd be in favor of that. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Stepping back slightly, I think most respondents here are approximately in agreement about what academic notability is. However, if you have spent any time on NPP/AfD/AfC and probably a few other places, the definition of academic notability is often tweaked, or even manipulated. I would like to simplify as much as possible.

I am a scientist, and maybe in other areas it is less clear. All the higher level Canadian Research Chairs I know would amply qualify from their other achievements. Similarly for really major chairs, for instance those that come directly from University Trustees.

The same goes for #Clarify C8 below on being an editor. If there are special cases where being an editor is really highly prestigious and is done at the expense of other academic achievements, please correct me. My experience is that it is really expected as part of service, along with reviewing papers, proposals, appointments etc. Peer recognition via citations, awards, reviews and sometimes news and a few other is what matters -- peers are "secondary sources".

Less is more. Ldm1954 (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

There are several areas of academic biography that I sometimes work in where markers of success such as citation counts are totally worthless, either because everybody lists everybody else as authors and they all get thousands of citations (high energy physics) or because citations are handed out like very valuable keepsakes and consequentially nobody gets any (pure mathematics). For those areas, it is important to be able to point to indicators that within the field certain people are seen as standing out above the others. Buggy as they are, C5 and C8 both provide that sort of indicator. C3 is maybe more consistent, within a specific field, but it doesn't have the same consistency from one field to another. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I think (hope) that everyone here knows that citation numbers are field dependent. If unsure, compare to others in the field as has been mentioned various times, with various recipes provided. To me high, discipline adjusted citations are a strong peer vote, and I will take that every day over university chairs which are often retention/hiring enticements. Similarly senior awards matter. Best is both peer citations and awards, although I know of several where the publications were weak but the awards were convincing, e.g. from industry, and another where the citations were suspicious; careful analysis is needed.

Being an editor, WP:MILL, not notable. I have never seen that claimed as a significant tenure achievement, it is expected service. My personal experience is that almost everyone will review/act as a editor for Nature or Science, but in strong, second level journals it is very hard to get academics to be good citizens. Ldm1954 (talk) 23:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

If they were merely "field dependent" we could adjust for field and be done. No, there are fields where they are totally useless. Do you want to kill off other notability criteria, because we have C1, and then lose most of our coverage of people in those fields, because C1 does not work for them?

Also, being an editor, meaning on the editorial board, is so run-of-the-mill that I prefer not to mention it at all. It is only being editor-in-chief of a major journal that counts for C8. And no, it is not true that "almost everyone will review/act as a editor for Nature or Science". Maybe almost everyone in experimental physical science will act as a referee for those two journals, but referee is even less exceptional than editor, and even some STEM fields like mathematics and computer science are very poorly covered by those two journals to the point where I think very few mathematicians and computer scientists have done any form of editorial work for them. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but I see no difference in editorial roles. I also have experience with people declining to be editors, so do not agree with you there. As Ghandi said,

"honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress."

Let's switch things slightly so we can perhaps come to an agreement of sorts. Do you agree with my argument that academic notability should be based upon peer review? If so we can start to discuss more definitively, including perhaps votes. Ldm1954 (talk) 00:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You see no difference between editor-in-chief, member of editorial board, and referee? Ok.

I do think that using signs of recognition by other people in the same discipline is better than using hype for one's research (the usual way WP:GNG might be accomplished for academics) and better than trying to determine for ourselves based on its content alone whether some piece of research is significant. I would not call this "peer review" because as Wikipedia editors we do not actually seeing the things that usually count as peer review: referee reports on papers, reviews of grant proposals, letters of recommendation for tenure and hiring, etc.

One of those signs of recognition is being given an advanced title (C5). These things typically happen only after peer review, letters of recommendation, etc. We don't see the peer review but we see the result. Another sign is being chosen to head a major journal (C8). —David Eppstein (talk) 01:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

If there's no difference between referee and editor-in-chief, my CV just got a heck of a lot more impressive. XOR'easter (talk) 03:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I at least meant editor-in-chief and editor. Of course not referee. Ldm1954 (talk) 04:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ldm1954, I've tried to do quantitative analysis of HEP citations based on the Scopus metrics of a subject's coauthors. It is impossible to determine what is "well above the average" number of citations when hundreds of people of wildly varying writing/experimental involvement and seniority are cited in every new consortium update on form factor measurements or whatever, each of which gets thousands of citations. There are assistant professors with Scopus h-indexes close to 100 for whom I could not find a single paper with fewer than 25 coauthors, much less anything secondary highlighting specifically their contributions. C5 can at least serve as a proxy for how a subject's scholarship has been received within their subfield, as evaluated by their university; the nuance and subjectivity then passes to how prestigious the school is (overall or in that subfield) and how prestigious a named chair or distinguished professorship is at that school. If we're to adjust C5, I think it should be to clarify what shouldn't count and to discourage knee-jerk "passes C5" assessments when it's not clear what the status of the position and/or the university is. JoelleJay (talk) 02:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I am happy with the idea of clarifying what C5 (and perhaps C8) are not, small steps (?). Related, maybe I should have used "peer recognition" as we generally do not see reviews as @David Eppstein says, and words matter. I understand @JoelleJay's point about HEP, which is why I '''always''' look for awards and similar '''plus''' the citations. Ldm1954 (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the profusion of chairs would make a presumption of notability for professors of no note who only have mention of their named chair on their employer's website. We can't write a biographical article on something like that. The notable named chairs might provide notability for holders per ANYBIO but the usage of C5 is probably over. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh boy, it's the GNG-fanatics again trying to rework everything into a clone of GNG even when it makes no sense. "We can't" = "I don't want to because GNG tells me not to", very different from "it is actually impossible". —David Eppstein (talk) 01:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

We could swap the order around and say something like, "The person has held a Distinguished Professor appointment, a named chair that indicates a comparable level of achievement, or an equivalent position in countries where...". XOR'easter (talk) 03:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I like the way this wording suggests that only this kind of named chair should count. I think it more accurately reflects our actual practice in AfDs. For instance, named chairs like Cambridge's Dorwart Professorships aren't generally taken as satisfying C5. These are visiting assistant professorships, basically postdocs with a fancy title, not permanent or higher-rank positions. The criterion-specific notes, 5(b), make clear that this doesn't count, but your wording matches this better than the status quo. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with both of you on this. Qflib (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that WP:NPROF C5 is the most problematic of the NPROF criteria. General comment that I've seen a few cases going by recently where a named chair was tied to a dean-ship. It might be good to add language to indicate that such named chairs are not a pass of WP:NPROF C5. On another note, perhaps it would be good to explicitly say that WP:NPROF C5 is a proxy for WP:NPROF C1, and that there should be at least some plausible case for the kind of impact we're looking for in C1. (I think this is generally along the lines of what XOR'easter is suggesting just above.) Russ Woodroofe (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Re "is a proxy of C1": plenty of distinguished professors are in non-journal fields such as the humanities where there is little hope of passing C1 (or C3). C1 works well only for journal fields. That's another reason why we need to keep C5; it helps normalize our standards across different fields of academia. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein, surely a notable academic in these areas would have awards (C1d/e and C2) and/or C3 & C4 and C7. As has been said here (not just by you), citations are not everything. If there is no peer recognition, just some Dean's award of a named chair then I would not be convinced, no verifiable evidence. Ldm1954 (talk) 18:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

David Eppstein, when I refer to C1, I mean the broad sense of having had a substantial impact on an academic field, and not the narrow sense of having a high citation count. As Ldm1954 suggests, there is usually some other signal of this. Perhaps it would be good to think about C5 as a little more like C2, where we disregard a lot of early-career and otherwise more routine prizes. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This discussion began with the comment that 1/3 of all profs at major universities have named chairs to which I would reply [citation needed]. Across most of the US a named chair requires an endowment in perpetuity for the position, which can be $1-8 million dollars, which is a huge stretch for all but the most significant positions. Yes, you can look at the Harvard or Stanford faculty lists and say, "See! 1/3 of their full-professor faculty have named chairs!" but I don't think that you'll find anything like this across the "major university" landscape (in the US R1, R2, and significant liberal arts colleges), where most departments are struggling to get their first endowed chair. And if this criterion makes 1/3 of the faculty at Harvard notable, are you really willing to make the argument that 1/3 of the Harvard faculty are not significantly more notable than the average professor?

Can we make a meta-rule for this guideline, that "changes to the guidelines without examples of 'professors who shouldn't be notable but pass a current criteria' will be rejected without discussion"? I'd really like to know one deletion argument for an existing article on a professor who passes this case. Then I could consider changing my views. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 09:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about the 1/3 number, and I am sure that almost all Harvard professors are indeed notable. But it does not take much searching to find other places with a large number of endowed chairs e.g. this was the first result on Google for 'university of Arizona named chairs', and this is just one school/college. Now maybe all of these people are notable, but the proliferation of chairs does kind of devalue them and make them a weak indicator of notability. WikiNukalito (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

One data point is an anecdote, but: in my R1 department of some 50 regular-rank faculty members, we currently have zero of them with endowed chairs. (We have roughly two chairs empty from recent retirements that we can hire people into, but they are unavailable to already-hired professors; we are working to fill those empty chairs, but that is a slow and difficult process.) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Different universities, different fund raising. Taking Northwestern University Computer Science here as a comparison, the university is R1 and aggressive about fundraising. I counted 18 full professors (exclude by courtesy and adjunct) or which 6 have endowed chairs. (A fortuitous match to my 1/3.) Ldm1954 (talk) 18:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

So, to clarify, instead of "1/3 of the faculty", as MSC interpreted your remark earlier, you really mean "1/3 of the full professors in certain STEM disciplines"? I imagine that at least 1/3 of the full professors in CS at Northwestern are notable by other standards as well. Having that many notable by C5 is non-problematic, and makes it easier to identify the notable ones both for article creators and in deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I meant full profs, and not adjuncts/courtesy since the latter are padding. Northwestern has some junior chairs but less as it is harder to sell those to donors. Ldm1954 (talk) 22:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Shifting back

I would like to return to XOR'easter's proposal and vote Support for it as a good compromise that seems (?) to satisfy most participants of this debate. Ldm1954 (talk) 18:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. XOR'easter's proposal seems reasonable. - Enos733 (talk) 19:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if it makes things clearer. It seems to be the way C5 is interpreted at AfD anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the change. I don't think it affects how people who often participate in academic AfDs will interpret the guideline, but it will help people who are trying to read the guideline for the first time and understanding what it means. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 21:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, I understand this to be the change to: "The person has held a Distinguished Professor appointment, a named chair that indicates a comparable level of achievement, or an equivalent position in countries where...". Assuming I understand that correctly, I support that, too. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I strongly recommend and request that a formal RfC be launched and subsequently advertised in relevant places to discuss a the proposed substantive change to this notability guideline. ElKevbo (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with that if we were discussing the deletion of C5. But (assuming I understand correctly) what we are discussing here is the wording change that I just quoted in my support comment. I have trouble seeing that as a substantive change. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with this change and fine with doing it without a formal RFC. I think it is a clarifying minor wording change without any intended change to the substance of the guideline. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the change on those grounds. XOR'easter (talk) 18:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Cheers, Qflib (talk) 19:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Clarify C8

Point b mentions that fringe and pseudo-science journals should not be included, but there are by some measure over 45000 academic journals, most of which have editors, most of whom are not notable. I think there should be some more clarity on what counts as a major well-established journal. Perhaps some combination of age, impact factor or association with important works, authors or events (though the last is a little circular). WikiNukalito (talk) 20:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Impact factor is only a used criteria for quality/notability/etc. in the sciences. What do you propose for the rest of academia? -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 09:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not necessarily crazy about Impact factor which is why I suggested some other ideas, though impact factor is a widely reported metric, even for many journals outside of the sciences. Another idea would be that notable editors edit notable journals? If a journal is notable enough to already have a page e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophy_journals, then no further evidence is required, otherwise there must be some evidence (including but not limited to Impact factor) to support the claim that the journal in question is a 'major well-established' one. WikiNukalito (talk) 11:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to using impact factor for anything at all. But whether a journal is notable is also a matter or some controversy; see WT:NJOURNALS. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I agree, impact factor is flawed but at present the word major is doing a lot of work (also true for the discussion about chairs above in C5). I am an academic, not a very notable one, but by replying to some of the half dozen emails I get a week I could soon be the editor of a journal Here's an example of a person who might not be a notable academic, but for editorial work at a MDPI journal, a questionable publisher. Perhaps simply a link between C8 and the notability guidelines for journals would be beneficial? WikiNukalito (talk) 18:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

In all, C8's not my favorite part of the guideline, and it's not used very much, but I'm trying to search my brain for a case where it has been invoked successfully to keep a biography that would otherwise have likely been deleted. I can't remember one. Do we have any such cases? -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 21:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I linked this one in the post above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kevin_Knuth WikiNukalito (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That wasn't a keep, it was a no-consensus close. And as I wrote in the AfD, the case for the journal he edits counting as major is weak. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Isn't that exactly the point? I happen to have reviewed for that journal and I don't think it's problematic but it isn't 'major and well established', it's mid-tier I suppose, though notable according to Notability_(academic_journals). So that's my question really, 'major and well established' is not the same as 'notable', so how should that be determined? You guys are much more experienced here, so I hesitate to offer any other suggestions, and maybe it doesn't arise much in practice, but surely it wouldn't hurt to have some guidance on what 'major and well established' means? WikiNukalito (talk) 07:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks WikiNukalito -- sorry I didn't see it. Whether delete or no consensus, it is an example of a case where discussing the criterion seems like a reasonable response. FWIW, my notion of "major" is substantially below "Science" or "Nature" but above the hundreds of journals that random predatory publishers create each year. Presumably there has to be prestige associated with editing the journal and numerous people who would be thrilled to be asked. In musicology (my field), out of the perhaps 150-300 serious, regularly publishing journals, I'd consider about 30 to be at the level where I'd make a C8 case (all of the editors are people I could make a C1 case for as well, but it just takes more time). -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

In terms of a page that is marginal for notability and tests the limits of C8 (WP:TOOSOON) is Draft:Benjamin Schlein, which is being debated by myself, Jähmefyysikko and TensorProduct with also some input from David Eppstein. He was one of four editors-in-chief for 2 years, but is not now. There is no question in anyone's mind (I think) that he is a strong mathematician. Also, I don't think that there is much doubt that the draft that was created directly in main space needed significant cleaning, which is slowly taking place.

However, with no great publication record, only relatively junior awards, the question is whether 2 years as one of the editors in chief meets C8 and WP:SUSTAINED. I am posting here to push forward the discussion of C8 which I personally am not a fan of. Ldm1954 (talk) 08:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion C8 should be limited to sole EiCs of prestigious journals, not every run-of-the-mill indexed journal. JoelleJay (talk) 00:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

C1,4,7 vs C2,3,5,6,8

I just went and re-read the whole C1-8 for the first time in a while and realized something that is quite confusing about the whole list. There are sort of two different types of criterion mixed together; three of which apply to 90% of academic notability cases, and five of which are specialized shortcuts. Compare the current list with some sort of reorganization like this:

General Criteria for Notability of Academics (passing any one is enough):

• The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. (=1)
• The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions. (=4)
• The person has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity. (=7)

Specific Positions, Awards, and Roles

Academics who have held any of the following positions or received such awards and recognition in their own field have sufficiently shown that their work has had significant impact in either their discipline, higher education, or outside academia. Thus passing any of these categories also satisfies notability:

• The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level. (=2)
• The person has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association...(etc.) (=3)
• The person has held a named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment...(etc.) (=5)
• The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed administrative post...(etc.) (=6)
• The person has been the head or chief editor of a major, well-established academic journal in their subject area. (=8)

---

It seems that somehow distinguishing the more general from the more specific cases might be helpful especially for newcomers to understand that there is a general way that academics are judged and then there are specific ways that save time at AfD. Drawback of course would be renumbering the criteria many of us know so well (call them A1–3, B1–B5?). The category labels and transition words are just things I came up with really fast, they're not important to the proposal, just the notion that these are two different things. Thoughts? -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that although this might have made sense to do at the dawn of time, this change would create more confusion than it would cure if carried out at this point. Just my opinion. Qflib (talk) 21:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)