Talk:Knights Templar

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opening synopsis

The wikipedia article on the Swiss Guard starts: "The Pontifical Swiss Guard (also Papal Swiss Guard or simply Swiss Guard; Latin: Pontificia Cohors Helvetica;[2] Italian: Guardia Svizzera Pontificia; German: Päpstliche Schweizergarde; French: Garde suisse pontificale; Romansh: Guardia svizra papala) is a minor armed forces and honour guards unit maintained by the Holy See that protects the Pope and the Apostolic Palace, serving as the de facto military of Vatican City."

That opener tells me concisely what the Swiss Guard is, what its purpose is/what it does, who it answers to. Below I have pasted this article's opener with some extraneous words, footnote markers, etc removed in order to focus in on my point - after reading the opener I don't have a clear sense of who/what the Knights Templar was. Was it just an army/military order? Was it a charity (for what?)? Was it a whole society (a la Freemasons)? Did they, like the Swiss Guard and the Freemasons, have a core ideology or mission/purpose?

The the Knights Templar was a Catholic military order founded in 1119, headquartered on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem through 1128 when they went to meet with Pope Honorius II. They were recognized in 1139 by the papal bull of Pope Innocent II. The order was active until 1312 when it was perpetually suppressed by Pope Clement V by the bull Vox. The Templars became a favored charity throughout Christendom, and grew rapidly in membership and power. They were prominent in Christian finance. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles with a red cross, were amongst the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades. Non-combatant members of the order, who made up as much as 90% of their members, managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, developing innovative financial techniques that were an early form of banking, building its own network of nearly 1,000 commanderies and fortifications across Europe and the Holy Land, and arguably forming the world's first multinational corporation. Niccast (talk) 20:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

FA concerns - bad sources

Several of the sources used in this older FA do not seem to be sufficiently reliable, especially since this subject has attracted some fringe views.

• "Stephen A. Dafoe. "In Praise of the New Knighthood". TemplarHistory.com. Archived from the original on 26 March 2017. Retrieved 20 March 2007." - this appears to be someone's blog
• We shouldn't really be using snopes for an FA, FA sourcing is suppose to be higher standard
• This article uses the History Channel a lot - it's now considered unreliable due to publishing all sorts of fringe stuff; so we really shouldn't be using it to site stuff in a FA when the subject has attracted sizable fringe views
• I don't think urbanlegends.about.com should be used
• "The Order of Christ and the Papacy". 6 May 2008. Archived from the original on 6 May 2008." - from jvarnoso.com. What makes this high-quality RS or even RS?
• What makes medievalwarfare.info RS?
• Red Wheel Weiser Conari mainly just publishes New Age/occult stuff, I'm not convinced books published by it are a sound source for this subject.
• "Clausen, Daniel (2021). Templar Succession: Establishing Continuity 1307-Present. Codex Spiritualis Press. pp. 21–61. ISBN 979-8465277525." - doesn't appear to be reliable, possibly fringe
• " Louis Charpentier, Les Mystères de la Cathédrale de Chartres (Paris: Robert Laffont, 1966), translated The Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral (London: Research Into Lost Knowledge Organization, 1972)." - what makes this RS? RILKO looks pretty fringy
• "Isle of Avalon, Lundy. "The Rule of the Knights Templar A Powerful Champion" The Knights Templar. Mystic Realms, 2010. Web" - doesn't appear to be reliable
• Newman mainly writes fiction, what makes her high-quality RS for this article?

Someone way more familiar with this subject than me should also give this a run-through to make sure this isn't giving undue weight to fringe viewpoints and is adequately representing scholarly consensus. Hog Farm _Talk 15:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• Doesn't look great - the sources are variable, but seem generally (from memory) to reflect modern historians' views. The main problem, it seems to me, is the very skimpy account of the order's history in the Middle East when at the height of its importance, a big hole in the middle of the article. The early rise & later fall are dealt with in far greater detail. Some of the phrasing seems iffy too - they weren't monks & the order shouldn't be called "monastic". Would need a deal of work I think. It averages over 4,000 views pd, so it would be good if it can be improved. Johnbod (talk) 04:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
• Thanks for the great list, I'm reviewing now. As regards snopes.com and urbanlegends.about.com, at the time they were worth including because of the issue with the "Friday the 13th" (incorrect) association with the Templars. It's difficult to prove a negative - There are no reliable sources that state the Friday legend originated with the Templars, but plenty of unreliable sources that do. Even our own Friday the 13th article doesn't seem to tackle it. And our Knights Templar in popular culture article uses the same Snopes and Urban Legends sources. I haven't looked recently to see if any reliable scholars have decided to publish about this, so if anyone else knows of a good source to prove the negative, that would be very helpful. --Elonka 17:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

King Philip VI of France 1312

The name of the king of France is wrong. It was king Philip VI who sentenced them to death. 2804:1B3:A8C2:DF1F:DD1D:35A0:48DD:B7AC (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

First off, Philip VI of France was not king in 1312. Philip IV was king.

Also,

• "On 13 October 1307, the regional officials of the French king, Philip IV, acting on royal orders, arrested the Templars throughout France." --The Templars: Selected Sources", edited by Rosemary Horrox, Malcolm Barber, Keith Bate, page 191.

Philip IV was king of France until 29 November 1314. --Bradbury, Jim (2007). The Capetians: Kings of France 987–1328, page 276. Kansas Bear (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Knights Templar

[moved from Wikipedia talk:Be bold]
Quote: While the "Roman Church" has been used to describe the pope's Diocese of Rome since the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and into the Early Middle Ages (6th–10th century), the "Roman Catholic Church" has been applied to the whole church in the English language since the Protestant Reformation in the late 16th century. Further, some will refer to the Latin Church as "Roman Catholic" in distinction from the Eastern Catholic churches. "Roman Catholic" has occasionally appeared also in documents produced both by the Holy See, and notably used by certain national episcopal conferences and local dioceses. This article identifies the Templars as founded in 1119 sometime before the Reformation, yet states it was a Catholic Military Order. Saying it was "Endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church" feels imprecise. Would prefer the church to be called the Christian Church as it would be identified at the time and Christian Military Order. Shanno52 (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Hierosolymitanis/Jerusalem in the name

The infobox's Latin title for the order ends in "Hierosolymitanis," which wiktionary says means "of Jerusalem." But, that's not mentioned anywhere in the intro text or "Name" section. If it was part of the full name, perhaps that should be included in the English somewhere. SSSheridan (talk) 11:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)