Talk:The Second Stage Turbine Blade

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Correct Website?[edit]

I was just reading this article and there is a summary from "Sanchez's website, www.evilinkcomics.net" I was searching for the website, and I can't find it. Is that correct or is something wrong there? Also, doesn't that summary need a citation? (that's the whole reason I was looking)

Sorry, I'm not too great at this editing stuff yet.
Zatbofhbq (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Cobalt and Calcium has information on Evil Ink Comics... I don't think the site exists anymore. Leave the summary there, it's pretty accurate. Anybody who follows the story can confirm it. 68.155.224.93 (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Characters[edit]

Does the characters list really need to include characters that don't even appear in this album? Especially the 10 speed? 66.31.6.101 (talk) 04:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No; removed. ≈ The Haunted Angel 21:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Time Consumer[edit]

I seem to have a different version of Time Consumer than my friend. His has a techno sound clip leading into the song from about 0:02 to 0:03, where I do not. I'm assuming this is because of the re-release, but does anyone know which track is the original? Note, the song sounds different and of a bit higher quality on his version. Because of this, I'm guessing his is on the re-release and mine is the original. Can someone confirm this? --- 70.232.59.249 20:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I have the reissue, and I don't hear what you're talking about at all. I've also heard a friend's original (non-reissue) copy of the CD, and her version is the same as mine. C.V. Reynolds (talk) 06:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I have both versions of this cd and time consumer is definitely different on the reprint version than it is on the original. The original version sounds cleaner and has more samples in it. the guitar is a bit different (or at least mixed differently) also the chorus has some sort of electronic echo sounding vocal effect on it. Why they changed it on the reprint I don’t know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.240.17 (talk) 23:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't even remember writing in this subject before, but apparently I did earlier this year. Odd. Anyway, I may have been mistaken or listening to some crap rip. I'll try to compare the two side-by-side and check for differences. C.V. Reynolds (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I see a lot of differences between the two versions... The reissue songs sound better in my opinion, with some more samples. The original songs I was listening to sound almost like demos, without the samples in EE, no solo or synth in TC, the opening riff in DT sounds like synth instead of guitar, etc.68.155.224.93 (talk) 02:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The Plot[edit]

I've decided to take out the whole "The Plot" section, as it is an unupdated interpretation taken from the Cobalt and Calcium formu. If anyone decides to put it back, please add a note with a link to the original post. I don't agree with it being here, as it doesn't have an 'official' status. It is, though, a good resource to understand the story up to this disc, but there are some mistakes according to the official comic.

That's the thing though, the plot category was in regards to the songs on the album, nothing more. The comic contains the meat of the backstory and etc.
Yet they are interpretations. I think it'd be more accurate to point in general lines to what the disc is about rather than specifying what each song is about. Some of the songs don't make a lot of sense without the comic as a background anyway. user:TetsuDC

The Plot[edit]

The Second Stage Turbine Blade
"...and with that he gave them this riddle: 'If man decides to dabble in my affairs, then guardian must intervene. But should I decide to bring my change across the face of man with you there to challenge me, then I shall return with the fires of Sirius to destroy all I have made. Whether man or I present that danger will not be told until the coming."
Time Consumer
Coheed's point of view
Coheed and Cambria have lived in ignorance of their past lives and now reside in Sector Eleven. They've had four children: Josephine, Claudio, Maria, and Matthew. Coming out of work one day Coheed is met by Mayo Deftinwolf (seemingly an android, though he was passing himself off for a man) who says he is the general of Ryan's Red Army. He explains to Coheed what he is (as the Mages would see it, a terrorist and a threat to the Keywork). He tells him that the Monstar virus is curable, but that he passed on a mutated strain to his children called the Sinstar. This is supposedly incurable, and the children must be terminated to save the Keywork. He's "nice" enough to leave the nasty deed to Coheed, but says that if it's not done by 2:00 AM the next morning others will see to it that the job is done. He then gives Coheed a case containing poison, and tells him that a car will pick him up at 2:00 AM to take him to a starport. The ship will first fly to the Gloria vel Vessa (a space station that serves as a relay point for planet-to-space to space-to-space travel. Anyway, Coheed returns home (at 21:11) to find Cambria waiting for him (when he bumps into her it's 21:12). Being the Knowledge, and being tied to the Beast, she overheard what Mayo told him and understands what they must do. However, Josephine has been gone and has not returned since she and Coheed got into a fight and Claudio is being naughty and is out late with his girlfriend Newo. He said he'd return around 1:00 AM, but for some reason he doesn't...Figuring there's not much to be done, they poison the twins, Maria and Matthew. Afterwards, they're picked up by some of Mayo's men.
Mayo's plot is to bring Coheed to Sector Twelve and to have the virus triggered so that they can shut down that sector's Star of Sirius and effectively remove it from the Keywork and thus eliminate Mariah's little rebellion while showing the other sectors that Wilhelm Ryan is still the boss and that his power is insurmountable.
Devil in Jersey City
Coheed's point of view
On the drive to the starport, Coheed sees some boys on the corner "fucking shit up" and he immediately thinks of Josephine out there, and fears that the soldiers who find her will rape her before her termination. He then falls into a restless sleep and dreams about the soldiers and other freaks taunting her before doing the deed. During this time when he's vulnerable he's infected with the Ciache and upon waking up, seeing Cambria triggers the awakening of the virus, and he falls into a fit. He's the "bleeding bastard" who's "down on the floor." By the end of the song he's burst awake is demanding to be taken home and save Josephine. Being too strong to restrain he breaks out of the car and makes a run for it with Cambria, and Mayo screams after him that "they'll follow you."
Everything Evil
Multiple characters: Jesse/Coheed/Cambria
Mayo sets up Jesse and has him invited to Coheed's house, in part "staging a reenactment". Considering Jesse was a clone of the doctor it would be a reenactment of when Coheed kills the doctor. Mayo is "waiting for everything evil in [Coheed]" to come out (because upon eye contact with Jesse the Monstar evolves). When the fight is happening (between Coheed and Jesse & his men) Josephine walks in and is killed by Coheed accidentally. Josephine then calls out to Jesse while she's dying saying to "come look at what your brother did here he did away with me". Patrick, who came home with Josephine, was also harmed. Later Claudio comes home while Cambria is trying to escape the chaos (with Patrick who is dying) and screams to him "dear Claudio, god damn-it well make it if you believe", not having a lot of time to explain the situation, and they get away. At that point the FBI busts in and tries to capture the lot of them and Coheed and Jesse escape.
Delirium Trigger
Coheed's point of view
Not flinching from the obvious, Coheed's going delirious as the virus begins to take full effect as they're flying through space. And he eventually goes into a rampage around the ship, destroying things and killing people. The song doesn't start with a main character's point of view, it starts with one of the crew of the ship they're on. This man, unfortunately, encounters the Monstar. Coheed passes out, and awakes, coming to his senses a little. Seeing the planet Earth of Sector Twelve out the window helps to clear things up. A phone rings nearby, startling Coheed. Cambria's still with Coheed, but when he was passed out, people began to "do" things to him. Coheed rises up to being the Monstar again. I will say now that Jesse may have accompanied Coheed and Cambria on this little trip. And seeing him come to what he was built for makes him ecstatic and remembers why all this started.
Hearshot Kid Disaster
Multiple characters: Coheed/Cambria
Either in Delirium Trigger, or in this song, or between the two, Sector Twelve is removed from the Keywork when Coheed somehow reaches that Star of Sirius. The scream at the beginning may have something to do with the flies released in the sector to cause confusion. These kill many, including the President, and completely "bury" the area. The beginning may have to do with Wilhelm speaking to Mariah. Mariah, on the other hand, is still searching for a sign that Wilhelm was the one who brought this hell upon Earth. As things have gone against the original plan, and Mayo is in the sector, and the ship he's captain of is having some trouble.
33
Cambria's point of view

Pattrick being chased by the FBI because he's witnessed too much.

Junesong Provision
Claudio's point of view
Claudio fled Newo's house as the FBI basically tried to hunt him down, and Claudio's feeling really confused. Claudio returns back to his house, crossing the yellow caution tape of the neglected crime scene and returning to his hiding place. He starts writing Newo a suicide letter, but doesn't finish or send it. In other news, the Gloria vel Vessa is having some problems and is sending out distress signals. Essentially, it goes down. After getting to a stopping point in his letter to Newo, he pockets it and grabs Coheed's gun. No longer able to stand the slight of the yellow tape, the blood, or the white chalk lines, he sets the house on fire and leaves.
Neverender
Claudio's point of view
Claudio watches from a distance as the fire destroys the house, and is in turn, put out by firefighters. He returns to the smoldering ruins, 'here in there after the fire'; burying himself amongst the ashes, gun in hand. His letter to Newo is unfinished, and he tears the bottom half of the paper off and starts a letter to his parents. Depressed and suicidal, he cries himself to sleep cradling his gun, with the letters crumpled in his other hand, tucked against his chest. He's probably having romantic thoughts of living out on his own, constantly on the run and writing to Newo. (The first four tracks in In Keeping Secrets of Silent Earth: 3 he dreams about, but they really did happen. It's kind of like he had visions of what was happening. He awakes in The Crowing when Ambellina, one of the Prise comes to him.)
Godsend Conspirator
Wilhelm's point of view
This is Wilhelm thinking/talking to Mariah, and he's expressing his frustration at not having killed her. I'm thinking Jesse's conspiring with Mariah now, if he hadn't been earlier (this is at the end of the song). They hide the IRO-Bot children in the floor as they prepare for the battle that will come early in the next album against the Red Army.
IRO-bot
This is about Jesse, or Hohenberger, and their IRO-Bots. Hohenberger was the "bad boy" though. But the song is about IRO-Bot's strengths, and it deals with Jesse's memories of being in the KBI (which is what I think will be described in the prequel to all of this). But it also deals with what Jesse has now.

Personnel[edit]

The Personnel list does not mention a pianist or keyboardist, yet the Trivia section mention a piano part on the last track of the album. There is another piano part audible at the end of "everything Evil."

Attys (talk) 04:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently that piano part was played by Josh Eppard. 68.155.224.93 (talk) 02:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CoheedAndCambriaSSTB.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Genres - pop punk, emo, post-hardcore[edit]

Fellow editors,

Recent additions of the genres pop punk, emo & post-hardcore have been made to the Infobox; supported by the following sources: [1] [2]. I suggest that the sourcing for these additions is poor; particularly that for pop punk & emo, which suggests the artists working within that scene, but does not support the album as a work of those genres.

I am removing the additions, pending formation of a consensus.

Thoughts? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 09:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

The source for pop punk and emo is talking about it in the context of the album though. The antiMusic link is a review to this album, and it says "CoCa took the greatest risk of all; in the grossly ballooning pop-punk/emo scene..." Why would they say that if they weren't calling it a pop punk and emo album? As for post-hardcore, if it's the site's reliability you're contesting, it's been discussed at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES before, and no one contested it.
In any case, Coheed and Cambria and this album are described as more than just progressive rock and I was trying to reflect that. I could probably also find more sources for these genres. Kokoro20 (talk) 09:45, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm just tagging you, @Ryk72:, so that you see my post. Kokoro20 (talk) 04:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Kokoro20, Thanks for the ping. I had missed the response. I have been trying to review the sources; and appreciate the link to WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES. Neither antimusic.com nor mindequalsblown.net appear there; and I am not able to determine whether there is a wider consensus that these are reliable sources for this purpose.
I suggest that we do not need to include the opinion of every reviewer from every website in the Infobox on albums. And certainly that these sources do not reliably verify the inclusion of the information as fact in this instance.
Suggest maybe listing for discussion at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES or seeking a third opinion; or finding additional supporting sources. NB: I am an editor who provides third opinions, but do not believe that this will influence any opinion provided - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 22:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Ryk72: Yeah, but that page also notes that not all reliable music sources will appear there. Mind Equals Blown was determined reliable at the talk page by a user there with no objections, even though it wasn't added to the list. I haven't seen anything about antiMusic, so maybe I'll bring that one up at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES.
I think it's important to list more than just progressive rock, because Coheed and Cambria are known for mixing up elements of various genres, not just progressive rock, and this album is no different, so to have progressive rock as the only genre, to be blunt, is inaccurate. Also, since the genres were cited, there's no good reason they shouldn't be listed in the infobox, unless it can be determined that they fail WP:DUEWEIGHT. Not to mention, this article originally listed many more genres ([3]), until someone came to cite progressive rock and removed the rest, and nothing was ever discussed then. Kokoro20 (talk) 23:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I found another source for emo.([4]) It says "That something is an unusual blend of prog-rock, emo and sci-fi fantasy. Consequently, the band has often been described as an "emo Rush" due to its elaborate concept albums, 2002’s The Second Stage Turbine Blade and 2003’s In Keeping Secrets of Silent Earth: 3". This is from MTV, so it's safe to that's reliable.
I found another source for post-hardcore too. ([5]) This is another source that's safe to say is reliable. I haven't really seen anything else for pop punk though. I still might bring up antiMusic at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES though. Kokoro20 (talk) 00:05, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Kokoro20, I agree that the additional sources make the inclusion more verifiable, and more due; and that MTV.com is likely a reliable source. An issue that remains is that a couple of the sources, including MTV.com, are describing the band, not the album. I do think we would be better with another opinion, and will place a note at WP:ALBUMS later on; if you have not already done so. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 01:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Ryk72: The MTV source says that they've been called emo due to their first two albums. So, how is that not calling this album emo? Also, what about the other source for post-hardcore? I'll be asking for another opinion soon too, as well as bringing up antiMusic at WP:ALBUMS. Kokoro20 (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72:: So any word on this? I've asked another editor for their input, but he has not gave one, and I brought AntiMusic up at WP:ALBUMS, and I've gotten one reply, where I was simply told to use it with caution. Since I'm citing a review and considering that reviews are meant to be opinion pieces, I think it should be fine. If we still need any more input, just maybe I'll either have to take up your suggestion and take it up at WP:Third opinion this time, or start an WP:RFC. Kokoro20 (talk) 01:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

RFC[edit]

Okay, I think I'll go ahead and start the RFC now so that we can solve this disagreement. The question is, are pop punk, emo, post-hardcore and hard rock eligible to be included in the infobox alongside progressive rock? Here a list of sources I've gathered for each genre:

Progressive rock (currently the only genre in the infobox): AllMusic, Melodic.net, SputnikMusic Staff Review
Pop punk: AntiMusic
Emo: Melodic.net, MTV, AntiMusic
Post-hardcore: Mind Equals Blown, RTE
Hard rock: Melodic.net

Be sure to check just what the sources say before giving input. If someone else finds any sources for these or any other genres, feel free to bring them up here too. Also note that some, but not all, of these sources are listed as reliable sources at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES (which naturally won't list every single reliable music source). Kokoro20 (talk) 05:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Yes: First of all, the RTE source very explicitly describes it as a post-hardcore album. RTE (short for Raidió Teilifís Éireann) is also a broadcasting network, much like BBC, so it's safe to say that's reliable. Also yes to emo from the MTV source, per my argument above. And if AntiMusic would be considered reliable, I support pop punk based on that source too. Yes to hard rock too, from the Melodic.net source. However, if we must, I would also be fine with just narrowing it down to progressive rock, emo and post-hardcore, since those have stronger support than pop punk and hard rock. Kokoro20 (talk) 05:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I support the addition of emo and post-hardcore to the infobox alongside progressive rock only; the Melodic.net review doesn't seem professional, so I'm having a hard time thinking it's all that reliable, and the AntiMusic article doesn't explicitly state C&C or their album as pop-punk, but rather the scene that was current back then. As for emo and post-hardcore: MTV's article calls C&C an emo band based off listening to both SSTB and IKSSE:3, and since the latter already has a reliable source for emo, I don't see the harm in adding the genre here, either. The sources for post-hardcore look pretty reliable as well. RHedmi (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@RHedmi: Well, Melodic.net may not look reliable at first glance, due to their grammar, but the site is listed at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES, which is obviously listed there for a reason. Would you support hard rock based on that source? Kokoro20 (talk) 06:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Kokoro20: I am aware that it is technically a reliable source, I was merely pointing out that I personally thought it didn't look professional and therefore didn't appear reliable. Personal opinion aside then, I'll agree to having hard rock listed as it does come from a reliable source. RHedmi (talk) 01:12, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@RHedmi: Fair enough. Well, since I now have two people agreeing with me to add emo, post-hardcore and hard rock, and three people against the AntiMusic source, I think I'm going to request closure here soon, if there's no further input from anyone. Kokoro20 (talk) 02:41, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
I request that it not be closed yet. It's only been open 3 days or so. I would like another couple of days to examine the sourcing & opine. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 04:03, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72: Well, I guess I can wait a little longer for you to give your own input, if that's what you want. Kokoro20 (talk) 11:33, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72: It's been 10 more days now. I think it's time to have this closed with the consensus of post-hardcore, emo and hard rock being added. Kokoro20 (talk) 15:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Kokoro20, I am happy for you to seek an uninvolved close. I would however, not concur with your estimate of where the consensus lies; there are unresolved synthesis & quality of sourcing concerns with emo and hard rock, as described below. I would also encourage editors involved in discussions not to claim a consensus, which may be seen as influencing the close. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 21:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
  • First, I don't think Antimusic is a RS. Second, I agree with RHedmi that it doesn't explicitly state the music is of the stated genres, only "in the grossly ballooning pop-punk/emo scene". Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:17, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Walter Görlitz: Okay, I guess we'll avoid using that source then, unless we get anymore objections. What do you think of the addition of emo, post-hardcore and hard rock, based on the other sources for them though? Kokoro20 (talk) 06:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes and I would add that not only do I think that it is appropriate, but when evaluating questions about whether to include something or exclude it, if there is any relevance at all I think that more information is better than less -- provided there is relevance, references, citations included. Wikipedia seeks to be useful as well as informative, after all. Damotclese (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I would concur that more information is better than less, but would also caution that more data is not the same as more information. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 20:08, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support post-hardcore (multiple sources, direct reference to the album, no WP:SYNTH required); Very Weak Support emo (sources support this as a qualifier of genre, not as a genre itself; requires WP:SYNTHesis to turn band descriptions into album descriptions); Oppose pop punk (per WP:SYNTH reasoning by RHedmi, above) & hard rock. Melodic.net source has CAC doesn´t play 100% pure progrock, the influences are there but this band has taken their own road with a more modern emo/hard rock sounding progrock which works from time to time but the band has a hard time reaching out with their complex melodies.; I would suggest this supports only prog rock, not emo or hard rock. MTV source has descriptions of the band, not the album, using "scare quotes", and more fully supports prog rock. I would not regard an unusual blend of prog-rock, emo and sci-fi fantasy as supporting emo any more than it supports sci-fi fantasy as an album genre. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 20:08, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72: But why exactly don't you think emo and hard rock are supported by the Melodic.net source? To me, it reads like they are saying the album is emo, hard rock and progressive rock, rather than a progressive rock album influenced by emo and hard rock, because they use the word "sound", rather than saying "progressive rock with emo and hard rock influences", "characteristics" or "elements". This suggests they are also calling it an emo and hard rock album, as opposed to saying it's influenced by those genres. Kokoro20 (talk) 03:12, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi Kokoro20, In the Melodic.Net source, a more modern emo/hard rock sounding is a compound adjective, serving to qualify the categorisation "prog rock". I cannot concur that it supports an interpretation that the adjectival terms be given the same weight as the categorical noun; nor to agree that such is a reasonable reading of the source. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 03:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72: Maybe not the same weight, but it still should provide some weight, at least additional weight to emo, since that's supported by another source too. And regarding the MTV source, sci-fi fantasy is not an established music genre (nor does any such term even have a page), but rather a term for an album theme. Kokoro20 (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I would be concerned that the entirety of the support for emo is a synthesis of these tiny pieces of weight such as this; as we do not have a singular reliable source which categorises the album as being of this genre, I can, at best, only weakly support such an addition. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 06:10, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
@Ryk72: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Either way, I think it's time for a closure now. This has been up for a whole month now. Kokoro20 (talk) 17:32, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi Kokoro20, Given that there have been no new voices, I am happy to concur that we should likely close. If you are happy to go with progressive rock, post-hardcore, emo, then I think we can agree a close; failing that, I am happy for you to seek a formal close. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 04:32, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I went ahead and added them now. I didn't do it before, because I've been doing other things lately, and haven't had much time to edit here on Wikipedia. So, I guess that's that. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC)