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Shouldn't it be renamed? Panelak is word in foreign language that likely has no associations in English. Pavel Vozenilek 23:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not think so. I have heard English people using it. Juro 22:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have heard English people talking Czech, does that mean that we can write Czech on English wikipedia? --Josef Sábl cz 10:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. Anyway a photo would be the best. Do you have some? Pavel Vozenilek 22:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course not :), but in the German de:Petrzalka article, there is a picture of Petrzalka, maybe we could use it...Juro 23:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article surely is double for Tower block. I would suggest to merge it... And I don't think that this word (panelák) settled in english enough to be considered an english word. I would recommend renaming it to: Tower block so we get back to problem of merging... --Josef Sábl cz 10:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pánelaky and tower blocks are not the same thing. "Pánelak" refers specifically to apartment buildings made of prefabricated concrete in the former Czechoslovakia. A modern high-rise apartment building in Chicago would not be a pánelak, nor would a similar building in Prague. As far as the name goes, everybody in the English-speaking expat community in Prague calls them pánelaky. Of course, most English speakers outside of Central Europe don't know the word, but that's why we've put it into the encyclopedia. Mwalcoff 18:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please, take a look at this page. It is not an article about buildings in Chicago it is an article about "Panelák". An equivalent of word Panelák is Tower Block in english, just face it. You don't mean that there need to be separate article for each architecture type of tower block, I hope cuz it is ridiculous:-) Předpokládám, že umíš česky, když mluvíš o panelákách ;-), je to to samé, jako kdybys vedle artiklu "Music" založil artikl "Hudba" protože česká hudba je jiná než zahraniční... Promiň, ale kdyby se takhle choval každej, vznikne tady pěknej bordel. Když už, udělej na stránce Tower block kapitolu Czech "Panelak" a vysvětli důvod, proč jsou české tower bloky jiné než v jiných zemích (Jestli tedy vidíš rozdíl, já ne ;-) --Josef Sábl cz 20:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
According to the "Tower block" article, a tower block is "a high-rise apartment building." That says nothing about prefabrication, which is the essence of a panelak. The Lake Point Tower is a "tower block" but certainly no panelak. Mwalcoff 10:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, in Tower block article in See also section there is link to prefabrication and there is picture of prefab (panelak)... but OK, maybe that just that article is wrong and you are right... than I vote for changing name of this article to Prefab as it is english equivalent for Panelak... also picture of Panelaks of Petrzalka is not good as there is no visible panelak at all :) maybe some picture from Most article can be used or I can make some pictures with my camera as I live in prefab ;) --Josef Sábl cz 10:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The tower block article has a link to prefabrication in the "See also" section. That's because some tower blocks are prefabricated. If their article is confusing to you, perhaps the tower block article writers need to make it clearer.
I would recommend against adopting the name "prefab" for this article. All of us English-speaking expats in the CR call those buildings "panelaks" or "panelaky." I've never heard someone refer to "a prefab." The only English-language equivalent of "panelak" would be something awkward like "prefabricated apartment buildings in the former Czechoslovakia."
Finally, if people object to the Petrzalka photo, I've got a shot of panelaky in Kamyk we could use, although I personally find the Petrzalka picture OK.
Well OK, I've searched internet and pages concerning panelaks and found no pages about prefabs.
Perzalka photo looks nice but prefabs can be seen only in the distance. --Josef Sábl cz 15:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I put the Petrzalka photo here because and only because it was available immediatelly. Other photo (of Petrzalka) exists on German Wiki but I didn't like it and was too lazy anyway. Please feel completely free to insert better picture(s). Pavel Vozenilek 18:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely, it is good that this picture is there. The more there are the better :-) I just suggested to add another picture with more detailed view of building.
Thanks for your interest in the article. Mwalcoff 19:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion use of these buildings in Czechoslovakia is so important that it deserves article of its own. Also puting countries specific informations into one page makes such page (a) unmaintainable, (b) unreadable. Pavel Vozenilek 20:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree. In addition, panelák should be conceived as a prefab tower block in (former) Czechoslovakia, that's a slight shift in meaning. Juro 00:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No fajn, jestli je tak zvlast dulezity pouziti panelaku v Cechach, at se ten clanek jmenuje "Pouziti panelaku v Cechach" nebo "Era stavby panelaku v Cechach". Kazdopadne ten clanek jak je takhle, je hrozna hovadina. Minimalne v tom, ze Panelak je i v cestine nespisovny slovo, melo by to bejt Panelovy dum. Ale OK, je vas vic, tak budiz po Vasem ;-) --Josef Sábl cz 10:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anyway article surely should be renamed to something in English, what if some russia commrade would like to rename it to something in azbuka... he has same right to do it as you have to name it "Panelák", we work on English version of wikipedia so it should be in English... Navíc, když do česko anglickýho slovníku zadáte slovo Panelák, vyleze vám Prefab --Josef Sábl cz 10:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know a lot of English people who use the term "panelak" as a specific term. Juro 19:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
IMHO (or not that humble -- being a native Czech living for couple of years in USA, I have some experience), the proper translation of panelák into English is "project", which actually has its own Wikipedia article -- project. This picture A local authority tower block in Cwmbrân, South Wales looks to me really like a Czech panelák. Moreover, it is really non-sense to make this into separate article, because there is nothing that specific in Czech paneláks (not only that they were all over the former Soviet block, but French, American, or any other projects are not that different -- as building). The only specific (correctly mentioned in the article) is that in former Communist countries projects were not only for poor, and there is no stigma attached on living there. So, I would suggest to rename this article into "Projects in the former Czechoslovakia" (translated "Panelový dům" -- panelák is really colloquial).
The projects as a derisive, slangy term for public housing is exclusively American English. They don't call them that in the UK, although young people might have picked up the term from TV. In addition, most Americans would only refer to "ghetto" public housing as "the projects;" the newer, mixed-income publicly subsidized homes wouldn't get the moniker.
I wouldn't say public housing is the same all over the world. They did build some buildings similar to panelaks in the U.S., but they aren't the same thing, and the story behind them is certainly very different from the story of panelaky. However, the panel apartment buildings of the former Czechoslovakia are probably little different from those built elsewhere in the Soviet Bloc.
I'm all for expanding this article and renaming it Public housing of the Soviet Bloc or something, but I'm only familiar with the former Czechoslovakia. -- Mwalcoff 04:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Plattenbau is the DDR equivalent of Panelák and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it in this discussion. Given that this is the English Wikipedia, I would suggest combining Plattenbau and Panelák into a new article by the name of 'Panel house' (created 2006-01-13 by Darwinek), and redirecting Panelák, Plattenbau, Panelka, Panelház and other country-specific forms to the main article. After all, there isn't that much difference between Panel houses of different countries. I'm from Hungary myself, where the landscape is dotted by the same types of buildings. —UED77 07:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, there is apparently an article at Commieblock as well. These pages really need to be merged. —UED77 07:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. IMO there should be general overview article and leaf articles on individual countries, where applicable.
Strong oppose regarding the proposed merger. There are many country-specific pieces of information related to prefabricated tower blocks, such as the ones already included on the Czech version of the page. I suggest to remove the merge template JanSuchy 19:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to adopt an idea that these buildings should be called Panelaks, than I came across this paradox:
1) Panelaks had not been built only in Czechoslovakia but in all socialistic states during era of communism: Russia, Poland, Germany, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia.
2) If we want to preserve term panelak we should describe it as Czechoslovakian type of some kind of building that was build in other countries as well (I suggest term prefab for now) and there should be an article desrcibing this "regular" prefab.
3) But!!! an idea of prefab comes from prefabrication and prefabs all across Europe (especially in post-communistic countries) are completely identical because they are made after one Russian design.
4) So now we have two articles panelak and prefab. But like I said, they are identical and both articles are identical as well. Is there any sense making such nonsense:-)
I'm asking you:
Q Is panelak article about a) Czechoslovakian panelaks or b) Europewide prefabs
a) Please read paradox thing again and remove pictures of Russian prefabs from article.
b) Alright, lets rename the article.
I see two solutions.
a) We will create separate article about prefabs in global scape, that would describe architecture. Than we can keep information about Czechoslovakian panelaks and info about their background, history and why they deserve to be in separate article;-)
b) We will keep only one article but we will remove information about Czech and Slovak republic and create one section about use of panelaks in Czechoslovakia. Than this article needs to be renamed. I doubt that people in russia call their homes Panelak.
Both solutions require renaming main article and it is just what I am fighting for. But I like solution b) better.
The article contains some specific information for Czechoslovakia (though possibly shared by Poland, Hungary etc). After someone creates article on Bulgarian panelaks then its time to coordinate/change the structure, IMHO. About your solution (b): it may be quite hard to maintain such article and it takes a lot of time to review updates.
Perhaps one solution would be to create category "Tower Block like structures" or so (as [[Category:Architectural_styles]] subcategory), have one general article and then country/building type/ etc specific ones. Pavel Vozenilek 20:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think we should keep the panelak article (why not?), even if we create a new article on panelak-like apartment buildings in general. Perhaps someone can start an article on "Apartment buildings of the Soviet Bloc" or something. Mwalcoff 08:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think that italics should be used only in case when we are talking about word panelák not the panelák building. It is regular word as any other, there is no need to write it in italics.
example: Word panelak comes from word panel. Panel is matter that panelaks are built of.
I have reverted all of the edits by Mr. Sabl while including his note about the equivalent of panelaks in other countries. Mr. Sabl's edits, while showing a healthy interest in the article, were not in great English and made the article somewhat confusing. I also removed the Russian picture, since the article refers specifically to buildings in the former Czechoslovakia. Finally, I agree with Mr. Sabl that the word "panelak" should not be in italics all the way through -- that would go against the assertion that "panelak" should be the English term. So I de-italicized it throughout, except where it falls under the "words as words" rule.
I've also cleaned up the lead paragraph a bit in a way I hope clarifies exactly what the article is supposed to be referring to. I think part of the confusion came from the probably erroneous information that "panelak" in English is "prefab." If that were true, the article should have been called "prefab." But "prefab" is not the equivalent of "panelak" -- it is just short for the adjective "prefabricated." There is no such thing as "a prefab" as far as I know. Mwalcoff 20:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, we have a quite interesting article now. Thanks. Juro 00:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Alhought the sentence with "protruding satellite dishes" sounds great, the implication is problematic. Satelite dishes were popular in early 90s. Now, "normal people" in cities have cable tv. People may have satellite to save $10-20/month :-) --Wikimol 23:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's interesting, because in America, DTH satellite dishes are considered superior to cable TV. You can get something like 300 channels with a satellite dish, compared to about 60 with standard cable. That's why I thought the satellite dishes indicated wealth. Mwalcoff 15:27, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Before 1989 dishes were the means to see Western TVs (the dishes and electronics were often hand made) and in early 90's cables didn't exist. Today dish + equipment could be bought for few thousands of CZK (few hundredths $). Several dozens of free channels + paid ones are available, in several languages but not in Czech. I do not know whether they even have subtitles in Czech. Pavel Vozenilek 17:10, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The difference may be in this: in America big part of the 300 channels is in English language. The same holds in Czechia ;-) If you compare the number of Czech language channels cable tv is superior to satellite.
The highest concentration of satellite antennas I have ever seen was in some village in Ruthenia - definitely not very wealthy region of Europe. The reason was exceptionaly bad reception of terrestrial tv. --Wikimol17:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Exactly same buildings were built in other european communist countries. I see no difference between Paneláks and Bloks in Poland. They are just as common here. Article needs to be renamed and cover similar buildings in Central and East Europe. exe 01:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The article was originall smaller and focused on Czechoslovakia. Over time people added more and more of general stuff. The general stuff should be moved into overview article. Pavel Vozenilek 21:31, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I left this discussion some time ago, giving up my tendency of persuading you to change this articles caption and I am pretty happy something has changed. YES YES YES Merge this article pleaaaase. It is absolutely stupid idea to pick one Czech word and start explaining why is this object different in Czech Republic than in other countries. It is not anyway. You can write article about "Auto", we don't call it "Automobile" in Czech Republic, explain the difference between Skoda and Mercedes, and pretend that Skoda is actually something absolutely different. These tower blocks, or as you call it "panelks" are build all over Europe and I doubt they call them panelak in France. --Josef Sábl cz 08:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the phenomenon od Panelaks has two important sides
the physical aspect, prefabrication, construction practice,..
the social aspect, urbanism, social developement
I think the social aspect is at least as important as the physical. On this bsse I would be against merge with articles about prefab buildings all round Europe on the base of physica characteristic. I would be for merge of all CEE (former Soviet satellite) articles. I'm quite sure in PL,CZ,SK, HU its all the same including social aspects. I'm not so sure about former core USSR countries such as Russia. Often "the Soviets were the example" thus many thing there were taken to the "next step", copmaared to satellites. --Wikimol 00:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, panelak is not "Soviet" invention. I am living in Wien-Leopoldau in the same "panelak". Huge parts of Paris are formed by "panelaks". Do you want to say Paris or Vienna are Soviet cities?
Idea of "panelak" was invented by French architects after II World War.
I agree with all those who expressed concerns about this article. It really makes no sense to create a new page for each name use by all local languages to indicate "panel houses". A panel house is a panel house. Full stop. You can see very similar one (sometimes the same) all around the globe, since in the 2nd half of the XX cent it was a vey widespread way of building. I live in one of those buildings in Bologna, and it's also not "soviet" city (although very leftist, lol). The only differece is that, while in formet soviet or socialist countries it had no low-class attached meaning, in other places it had. But I really don't think this is a good motivation enough to start a separate article.
In addition, "Panel house" redirects to this page, with a Czech name. Why should wikipedia, under "panel house" refer only to its Czech application?
I think it should all be in a common article about panel buildings, with a subdivision by countries explaining differences and similarities (if there are).--Desyman44 (talk) 11:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Man, this article is still called "Panelák"? I check once in a while and it feels more creepy every time I visit. When will "počítač" article emerge, describing the typical Czech computer with the most common feature of stolen software installed. You are crazy, people, crazy :-) --Josef Sábl cz 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
English-speaking people in the Czech Republic call them "panelaks." There is no English-language equivalent, just like there is no equivalent to sudoku, filet mignon or piñata. -- Mwalcoff 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Panel building. There is. They use it or as a joke or because it's shorter (in some cases they just don't know the term)--Desyman44 (talk) 21:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that article demonstrates that the term could be literally translated as "panel building" but doesn't demonstrate that it actually IS used, (certainly not more commonly than panelak) by actual english speakers. Moreover, if you look at the only citation on that article, it seems to show brick buildings that look nothing like panelaks. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comes a bit late, but here is the problem: a specific word on a specific language is used for something, that has many different names in many different countries, but in all of those countries its quite the same thing - and in english it's called a panel block. Every article considering this type of building should be merged into one with the name I just pointed out. I haven't heard anybody use the word "Panelak" in english. A new article should be formed, including the information about these buildings from all over the (former) communist world PLUS the Swedish and American projects.
And one more thing - the low-quality and low design of the buildings (an allegation for every product from the former Eastern bloc) is a complete myth. Simply the now-defunct State Standarts didn't allow for the builders to use low-grade materials or not to do their job properly, as they would be severely sanctioned - and back then sanctions of any kind were not pleasant at all. - TourbillonA ? 21:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you find some references that use the term "panel blocks" for buildings the United States? Thanks. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 22:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have heard "panel block" and "prefabricated panel building" to be used often enough in english, but here are some english-language references [1][2][3]. - TourbillonA ? 10:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean from a non-industry source... like a newspaper... and preferably talking about something that looks like the panelak featured in this article, not single-family dwellings, and ideally, not from a Czech website translated into English. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
These both refer to socialist-bloc buildings, while my request was for usage of the term describing large panelak-style buildings in the united states. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently I misread, I thought you wanted sources for the usage of the term only for the Socialist bloc, so sorry for the time waste. Anyway the point is that it's useless for all this information to remain separated in several very similar to each other articles. I suggest this article, Panel building, Plattenbau, Ugsarmal bair and Khrushchyovka to be merged in a single article (either Panel block or Prefabricated panel building), containing additional information about Million Programme and Pruitt-Igoe. - TourbillonA ? 10:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that I disagree that they could probably be merged, but I'm not sure they should be. First, I'm unconvinced that Panel building or Panel block are appropriate terms. I think they are neologisms and generally not used in English. Rather, I think people tend to use the local terms depending on what country they are talking about. Bear in mind that Krushchyovka is referring to something rather more specific than this article or Panel building. Secondly, while there is some repetition in these articles, there is a fair bit of country specific information in most of them that doesn't need to be dumped. While creating a main article to tie everything together might not be a bad idea, I don't necessarily think that means these other articles should cease to exist. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 02:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well that might be a good idea, but considering the fact most of the information on these pages is very similar, a new article seems a rather logical and easier way to present all the common information. It wouldn't be a problem having "main article" links in the new page where all the country-specific info will be preserved (and possibly, reworked). Well, Google at least gives a reasonable result 201 000 for prefabricated building, apartment building and so on...In case a proper name can't be found, the article may be called Prefabricated panel constructions in the former Socialist bloc or something like it. - TourbillonA ? 15:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I remain unconvinced. Prefabricated building can mean a lot of different things, most of which don't need to be placed together. Does former Socialist Bloc include Yugoslavia? TheMightyQuill (talk) 02:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is why "...in the former Socialist bloc" will make it clear what sort of prefabricated buildings are these. Yes, it does include Yugoslavia, and if applied more broadly can include Mongolia, Cuba and Vietnam (as members of the COMECON, although I have no information if panel buildings have been constructed in the latter two). - TourbillonA ? 10:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. I still think it's a neologism that isn't used by almost anyone. If you want to create it, I won't stop you, but I still oppose merging at this point. I think there is plenty of information in these articles to make them worthwhile on their own. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well at this point we can wait for more opinions...- TourbillonA ? 09:24, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think Themightyquill has a bit "localist" view. Panel high- (or medium-) rise buildings exist all over the world, not only in the former soviet block (i personally live in one!). What do those have so different from those in the rest of the world? If there are some differences, let's explain them in specific sections of a single article (es. panel building), but to have an article in any language is just ridicolous and result of "linguistic localisms".--Desyman44 (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit to a localist view, but I'd argue you both have an overly technical view. Panelaks and other similar buildings constructed under socialism are not simply a method of construction, like Stonemasonry. They are significant cultural elements, representative of socialist production, socialist planning, and ongoing legacies of these. When Václav Havel called them "undignified rabbit pens, slated for liquidation," he's not talking about a method of construction. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 14:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have no intention of moving the article. In my edits, I'm just not writing as though [panelák] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) is an English word, in order to reduce astonishment of English readers, as well as do the right thing by screen readers, text-to-speech, and the like, by labeling it with template:lang-cs.
If, later, there were a merge of articles, there should definitely be strong sections for any meaningful variants, with their local terms. I wouldn't want to lose interesting information from the articles.
Panelák, though, is certainly no more an English term than blok. Practically and personally, I would use neither when referring to one to an English-speaking person with little prior contact with Czech, Slovak, or Polish language, unless I wanted to say something like, "the Czech call them [paneláky] Error: {{Lang}}: unrecognized language code: cz (help)." I'd say something like "they lived in a concrete block of flats (from the Communist era)." Or, more American, "concrete apartment block." Both of these phrases are also very common in English search results, incidentally, often preceded immediately by "Soviet-era" or "dismal".
I have renamed the article from "Panelák" to "Czech panel apartment building", to match its current scope. The headword "Czech panel apartment building" is rather imperfect, as "panel apartment building" seems to be a rare term with its 10,000 Google hits. The term "panel apartment house" has some 5,000 Google hits. The term "prefabricated apartment building" has 8,400 Google hits. A better headwords is needed.
Renaming seems to be an improvement over "panelák", which is hardly an English term. Searching for "panelák" in English Google books[5] finds "panelák" in italics, meaning that it is treated as a non-native word.
The current scope of the article is Czech panel apartment building rather than, say, Soviet-bloc panel apartment building. Judging from the images in the article "Microdistrict", the panel apartment buildings from Soviet-bloc look all basically alike. However, apartment buildings made from concrete prefabricated panels are also found in Germany, Sweden, Mongolia and probably elsewhere around the world: see the gallery below.
As regards the scope of the Czech word "panelák", I doubt that it applies only to Czech panel apartment buildings. I would spontaneously apply it to various apartment buildings in Germany, Sweden, Poland, Estonia, and elsewhere, and in particular to those shown on the pictures in "Microdistrict". See also the section #same builidings in other countries above.
The differentia "panel" in the sense of "made from concrete panels" seems apt, where as the differentia "prefabricated" seems rather inapt. Judging from Prefabricated home, prefabricated dwellings are manufactured off-site in advance, and not necessarily made from concrete.
A related article is concrete slab. Quoting Plattenbau, Plattenbau is a building whose structure is constructed of large, prefabricated concrete slabs. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gallery:
An apartment building in Ukraine
An apartment building in Estonia, looking like a Czech one
You didn't feel that discussion was necessary for a name change, even when the talk page was full of discussion of the name? I would argue that there are substantial differences between (both the fabrication and cultural meaning of) Panelaky and the concrete apartments in Sweden or Munich. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to revert. Anyone who's lived in Prague can tell you panelak is what English-speakers living in the country call those buildings. There are plenty of such "foreign" words as article titles in Wikipedia, such as börek, Birkat Hamazon, gaijin, matryoshka doll, etc. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you demonstrate that "paneláky" is an English word, by providing three independent quotations from durably archived sources? English dictionaries do not have "panelák"; I have failed to find quotations from primary sources that would show that "panelák" is an English word, such quotations that we use in English Wiktionary to attest words. Your claim that "paneláky" is an English word is non-trivial, and the burden of proof is with you. Anecdotal evidence such as "Anyone who's lived in Prague can tell you panelak is what English-speakers living in the country call those buildings" has no place in an encyclopedia; in particular, you have no access to "anyone who's lived in Prague" to ask them all. Even if most English speakers living in Prague indeed used "panelak" to refer to Czech apartment buildings made from prefabricated concrete blocks, that would not make "Panelák" a good title for an encyclopedia article. I have moved the article again to an English title, from which its has been moved back to "Panelák" by Mwalcoff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a discussion from a board for expats living in Prague in which the word "panelak" is used without requiring a definition: [6].
This took me all of two minutes to find on Google. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Mwalcoff. There are plenty of English media references to "Panelák" but a google search for "czech panel apartment building" yields only this wikipedia article. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Dan, if you had discussed this first, we could have avoided a revert war. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The quotations given above attest, as an English term, "panelak" without the accute accent rather than "panelák". The first quotation is from a discussion board, whose use for attesting terms is tricky. The two quotations from radio.cz are not very convincing, given they are ones from a web site of a Czech organization. The quotation from the BBC article[12] is hard to dispute, although the author is likely a non-native speaker of English, judging from his or her sentence structure used in the article. You had to go to discussion boards and to organizations specifically linked to English expats to find quotations of "panelak"; "panelak" is a not a term to be understood by a wide audience. OneLook finds "panelak" only in Wikipedia[13] rather than in other dictionaries. There is no quotation of "panelak" in Google books that I would know of; in Google books in English texts, I have only found "panelák" with the accute accent and in italics.
The term "Czech panel apartment building" may be uncitable, admitted, but it has the advantage that is a sum-of-parts term consisting of "Czech" and "panel apartment building". The Czech term "panelák" refers not only to Czech buildings but also to similar buildings around the world. It is unfortunate to treat Czech panel apartment buildings and, say, Polish apartment buildings as two different concepts: they are instances of the same concept at various geographical locations. There are probably some differences in the way Czech and Polish concrete prefabricated panel apartment buildings have been built, but I am unaware of any difference that would justify obscuring the common features of the entities by the use of intransparent language-specific terms "panelak", "blok", "Plattenbau", "Paneelmaja", "Panelház", etc., instead of treating the entities under a common English head.
There has already been a plenty of discussion on the name of this article, as this talk page shows. In that discussion, you, Mwalcoff and TheMightyQuill, have repeatedly supported the thesis that the article should be called "Panelák" with the accute accent. In the discussions above, you have not achieved a majority support, and I have found the arguments that you have brought forth unconvincing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the best name for "panel apartment building": The Google rates that I have found (they may differ with some search settings of the user):
"panel apartment building": 10,000 Google hits
"panel apartment house": 5,000 Google hits
"prefabricated apartment building": 8,400 Google hits
If you start by discounting quotes from Prague-based English-language media, we're going to have trouble. Naturally, it's going to be English-speaking journalists living in Prague that are most likely to be familiar with the cultural phenomenon. They don't tend to rank very high on guided tours of the city for short term tourists. If "panel apartment building" is really a standard term, I'm rather surprised there are only 10,000 hits from google. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is absurd, Dan, to base your objection on the fact that English-speakers tend to leave off the accent mark when using the term. English speakers regularly omit diacritics when using words of foreign origin like "naïve," "café," "jalapeño" or indeed "Anton Dvořák." Many English-speakers don't know how to type those characters on their keyboards or, not being used to them, simply think they don't matter. And I'm sure you know that Czech speakers themselves often ignore diacritics when typing SMS messages or e-mails. I also find it odd that you're discounting the articles from radio.cz; if anything I would think the use of "panelak" in the English texts of a Czech organization would be more authoritative, not less so. If you want to create an article on "panel apartment buildings" of Europe as a whole, you're welcome to do so, but this article is specifically about those in the former Czechoslovakia and therefore uses the term that English speakers in that region use. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Themightyquill and Mwalcoff, you may keep on moving the article back to the title "Panelák". Fact is, in the discussions on this talk page, you have achieved nothing like a plain majority support for the title "Panelák", let alone consensus. So arguing with consensus won't do. I have shown that "panelák" is not an English word by the criterion of the lack of attestability and the criterion of its absence in dictionaries. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is this? I re-stumbled on this article while writing a draft about Jižní Město and nearly had a heart attack, this is overtranslation at its worst. Dan, you have not gained anything remotely close to a consensus to move this article to "Czech panel apartment building". Yes, panelák is not an English word, neither are Medovina, Rakia or Ćevapčići, but we're not going about moving these to "Czech honey-based alcoholic beverage", "Balkan distilled fruit spirit" or "Balkan mixed meat kebab-style sausages" (although maybe you would want to). Similarly "cs:hot dog" is not a Czech term, however on Czech Wikipedia you can find an article with that name, which the editors there clearly don't feel the need to rename to "Americký parek v rohlíku". Some words do not have English translations, because they are so tied to a different country's culture and not ours that we would never need to evoke their meaning within the English speaking world. We don't have anything remotely like a Czech sídliště in England or America, we have housing estates but not these things! If you read any travel guide (try The Rough Guide to the Czech and Slovak Republics, Time Out Prague, Lonely Planet) and even some books about architecture (try [14]), they use panelák - in italics yes, because it's a foreign word, but it's the only word which conveys this meaning. The article should keep the Czech name. By the way, why "apartment building" and not "block of flats"? Why are you using American English when the Czech Republic is in Europe? - filelakeshoe 12:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with the above comment by Filelakeshoe. Panelák is the most common term for this type of building in the Czech Republic (and in Slovakia) and the article should keep the Czech name. The references provided in this discussion suggest that the word panelak is used also in the English speaking world (see the BBC link). Some words are simply untranslatable without losing the "essence" of their meaning. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 13:21, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If this is going to be a separate article, then Panelák seems a good name for it (no need to use an "English" phrase that English speakers won't understand any better than the foreign word). But I don't really think there need to be separate articles describing this same phenomenon in relation to individual countries.--Kotniski (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point, but the article contains a lot of useful information about living in one particular country. About one-third of the Czech population live in panelák and this fact itself implies that there is a room for describing many specific cultural and social elements. Perhaps we should create an article about Housing in the Czech Republic in general, because i. e. the term Satellite town has different (often pejorative!) meaning and social function in the Czech society than in the American or Japanese. Satellite towns in the Czech Rep. are sometimes called flat paneláks :) --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 15:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your statement about what satellite towns are called seems improbable: Google search for "flat paneláks" finds only one hit: your contribution on this talk page. Are you speaking of what "penelák" means in Czech or what it means in English? This is an English Wikipedia. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for notifying the WPP Czech Republic, I did not notice the renaming before. As some users stated above, I think the Czech name is a perfectly valid, since there is simply no better equivalent in English. The current article name is overtranslation. As for the need of a separate article, I am rather neutral. If improved however, this article should remain separate. - Darwinek (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my....a nice example of how quantity of people does not yield quality. Panelák is simply the short (and colloquial) form of "panelový dům" and has no other official or inofficial meaning than exactly this (you can find this even in the normative dictionaries of the Czech or Slovak language). It does not refer just to the houses in former Czechoslovakia, therefore there is absolutely no reason for having separate articles for exactly the same term in Poland, Germany etc. But if you do not find it weird that the Czech and Slovak article are named "panelový dům" instead of panelák and treat exactly a panel appartment house, while all the "experts" here assert the opposite, then just go on...Incredible. Visitor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.168.229.18 (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Panel building. We have a (rather incomplete) collection of articles, which could quite comfortably be merged into one. However merging isn't the matter in question, the matter in question is the name of this article, and if we are going to have an article about panel buildings in the Czech Republic and Slovakia (I really don't care either way), it should have the title Panelák, as this is the most frequently used word in English language sources. See WP:COMMONNAME - filelakeshoe 20:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and it also returns images such as this, which is a "concrete apartment block", that is, an apartment block made out of concrete, but not a panel building. Your WP:GOOGLEHITS argument, aside from being based on google hits, is analogous to saying that "a search for "ćevapčići" returns 20000 hits, whereas a search for "sausage" returns 2 million, ergo let's move ćevapčići to Balkan sausage". Here are a handful of English books using "panelák": [15][16][17].
Just to clarify, I wouldn't be against starting one article, Panel building, merging panelák, plattenbau et al into that, and describing each country's panel buildings and their significance in sub-sections. What I'm against is this article being titled "Czech panel apartment building" (and beginning "Panelák is a colloquial term in Czech and Slovak for...", which was the state of the article for 2 months after your move war) If someone reads a book about this topic they will encounter the word panelák. Should they want to come to Wikipedia to find more they would most likely type in panelák, not take a guess at some vague American English translation. - filelakeshoe 11:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So instead of ten, you provide three links to books as a support for the claim that "'panelák' is the most often used term in English". Why am I not convinced? What evidence can you offer to support your claim?
Re "If someone reads a book...": When a person types "panelák", he is automatically redirected to "Czech panel apartment building", "Czech concrete apartment block", or whatever. I do not see the problem. Redirects are exactly for that. As regards vague guesses, is the article "Panelák" about (a) Czech paneláks or (b) Czech and Slovak paneláks?
On yet another note, what is wrong with American English? Is Brittish English somehow per default better than American English? Either a British title or an American title is going to be used; I don't care too much other than that there are more Americans than Britons, so American English makes more sensible default to me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Surely enough evidence has been presented by now to show that panelak is used in English discussions of the topic. Do you have a better (commoner) name - one that relates specifically to the Czechoslovak phenomenon, which is after all the subject of this article?--Kotniski (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paneláky in Estonia, by any means
(unindent) Re Kotniski: There isn't anything like a specifically Czechoslovak phenomenon of "panelák": I have collected a gallery of paneláks from various countries, posted at the top of this thread. There is no attribute-based selection of objects that picks Czech paneláks to the exclusion of Polish paneláks. Unsurprisingly, there is no English single-word term that picks exactly Czech paneláks. But there is also no Czech single-word term that picks exactly Czech paneláks. The Czech word "panelák" is not constrained to Czech buldings, and it is not constrained to Czech and Slovak buildings. If there should be an article about Czech paneláks to the exclusion of Polish paneláks, there is nothing wrong about this article having a multi-word name such as "Czech concrete apartment block": the length of the title discloses that there is no compact concept described by the name. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Enough evidence has been supplied to support the claim that the term "panelák" is sometimes used in English language literature as a foreign word, often written by non-native English speakers. No evidence has been supplied to support the claim that the term "panelák" is the most common one among those terms used to refer to the class of building to which the Czech term "panelák" refers. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the Czech or Slovak word panelak may not refer specifically to Czechoslovak buildings, but when used in English it presumably does. I don't believe that "concrete apartment block" is precise enough to specify this type of building. I haven't seen any evidence in favour of any alternative term.--Kotniski (talk) 12:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the situation is much like with "Czech national identity card, which could equally well be called "Občanka", and has been called "Občanský průkaz" before I have moved it. Check the category Category:National identity cards. The title "Czech national identity card" has four words while the colloquial "Občanka" has only one word. You can find all sorts of cultural references to "občanka", but it does not make "občanka" a meaningful title for an encyclopedia article. I admit, though, that "občanka" is hard to find in English texts.
On evidence for the alternative term "concrete apartment block", used in reference to Czech and also non-Czech buildings:
"...the anonymous concrete apartment blocks that occupy the edges of the country's towns and cities."[18]
"...Despite the recent economic boom, his neighborhood, south Warsaw's Bemowo, hasn't changed much -- at least not outwardly. The Communist-era concrete apartment blocks have remained the same, there is no historic center and there are no bars or restaurants."[19]
"...Which is why, on this particular evening, Karel von Schwarzenberg is in a smoky pub in Novo Dvorska, a Prague suburb filled with communist-era prefab concrete apartment blocks.[20]
"Its developer, Milan Ganik, said luxury builders in Prague had shied away from large projects because they might remind people of the dreary concrete apartment blocks built all over Eastern Europe under communism."[21]
"For decades during Communist rule, this small city at the southern edge of what was then Czechoslovakia was a dusty industrial town, best known for a massive oil refinery and a vast wilderness of decaying concrete apartment blocks on the north."[22]
"We passed utilitarian grey concrete apartment blocks and old, factories, reminders of Soviet days."[23]
"While there are a fair share of buildings that could stand a new coat of paint and some grim concrete apartment blocks, the historic nucleus of the city is a knockout."[24]
"I’d driven up from Vienna through the bleak Moravian plain and I didn’t really know what to expect. The city lies at the confluence of two rivers and is surrounded by forested hills, which all sounded promising enough, but, on approach, an outer circle of concrete apartment blocks — the paneláky of the Soviet era — does little to inspire confidence, and an inner circle of railway bridges and grimy run-down frontages from the Viennese Secession doesn’t do much to lift the spirits either"[25]
"From there you can see mile upon mile of dull concrete apartment blocks south of the river, built by the Communists to house workers. We also visited the Bratislava Castle perched on the hill above the city, ..."[26]
"Nove mesto part is a larger area just in the vicinity of the Old Town, still containing some locations considered as central (referred to as the wider centre or "sirsie centrum" in Slovak). Karlova Ves, Dubravka, Lamac, Devin (including the Devin castle), Devinska Nova Ves and village Zahorska Bystrica belong to district Bratislava IV. Bratislava V covers the largest part of Bratislava - Petrzalka (with its concrete apartment blocks) and the formerly independent villages Jarovce, Rusovce and Cunovo."[27]
OK but does the phrase "concrete apartment blocks" - on its own, without any "grim" or "prefab" type qualifier - specifically refer to the panelak building technology? I suspect its scope is wider.--Kotniski (talk) 13:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not. But what is the specific panelák building technology? What distinguishes paneláks from other concrete apartment blocks?
If you have concerns for specificity and accuracy, the title could read "Czech prefab concrete apartment block"--Google has some hits for "prefab concrete apartment blocks" in plural, even in Google books. I do not have any reference on what "panelák" means exactly; in Czech, it is a colloquial word anyway. Being a colloquial term, "panelák" does not probably have a wholly precise, sharp meaning. It refers to a certain vague class of buildings found in the Czech Republic and to all other buildings that are somehow similar. If I do not know what class of buildings exactly paneláks are, how is the reader of the encyclopedia article going to figure that out? Is the difference between "prefab concrete apartment block" and "concrete apartment block" significant enough to warrant a differentiation in Wikipedia? --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dan, "concrete apartment block" is a legitimate English term but it is not a translation of panelák! Your google image search for it returned plenty of images of apartment blocks made from concrete which are not paneláky. My problem with you using the word "apartment" is that it is a BrE/AmE false friend - in AmE it means a flat you live in, and in BrE it means a flat you rent when you go on holiday. I stayed in a "concrete apartment block" in Croatia once, it was a 2 story semi detached house which its owner had converted into apartments to let out to tourists, and it was definitely not a panelák.
I also disagree that the term panelák is usually used by "non-native speakers", and a lot of your extracts you posted weren't actually about paneláky per se, they were just describing a place - an extract saying that Prague's district "Novo Dvorska" (sic) is full of concrete apartment blocks in an article about Karel Schwarzenberg is not a reliable source about the name of these buildings, they're only mentioned in passing. A lot of the books using "panelák" are travel guides, as well as a few architecture books which I posted, which actually explain what they are. I believe the case of Občanka is slightly different, as "national identity card" is a clear unambiguous translation, and what I'm trying to tell you is that "concrete apartment block" is not. - filelakeshoe 21:32, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) Filelakeshoe, I think I can see your point with lack of specificity. This point can be handled by using "Prefab concrete apartment blocks in the Czech Republic and Slovakia", or something of the sort. The advantage of this title and all similar titles is that there can be a series of articles of the form "A in B", where A identifies the class of paneláks no matter whether in Czechia, Poland or Russia, and B identifies the place in which entities of this class occur. Having such a naming structure is my main point. I do realize that "Prefab concrete apartment blocks in the Czech Republic and Slovakia" has zero Google hits. The task is to find the best term for "A". "panelák" does not do for "A", or else you get "Paneláks in the Czech Republic and Slovakia", "Paneláks in Poland" and "Paneláks" in Russia, which is a terminological choice unjust to language-specific terms of Poles and Russians. My point, again, is to get rid of language-specific terms for what is basically one class of objects. It seems very hard to find a term that is both fitting and actually used. It seems that printed media do not consider this class of buildings worthy of consideration under one head. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the "občanka" case, "občanka", an abbreviation of "občanský průkaz", is not unambiguously translated as "national identity card": it was not a card but a booklet. By naming the article "Czech national identity card", a compromise is being made. The term "Czech national identity card" has 416 Google hits, hardly a convincing number. A more fitting term "Czech national identity document" has zero Google hits. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On another subject, there is a real problem with the lacking definition of the allegedly English term "panelák". Consider this quotation[28]:
"Panelak was one of the first words I learned in Czech. It refers to high-rise multi-storey blocks of flats, constructed of pre-fabricated, pre-stressed concrete panels, which dot the country."
Maybe the English term "panelák" only refers to high-rise buildings, but the Czech "panelák" definitely refers also to four-storey buildings that are by no means high-rise. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, according to the notorious thesis of many contributors to the discussion, this seems to be the only meaningful conclusion...!--Desyman44 (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the article is too focused on the Czech/Slovak instances of the Soviet-era panel apartment building. Those types of structures are prevalent in all of the countries who were under heavy Soviet influence at the time. This would include the likes of Poland, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Belarus. Plus, the article cites little to no references to the actual use of the term in Western media. And since that type of building is commonly found in other countries as well, I don't see why the article should be named with the Czech term. - Reanimated X (talk) 12:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It uses the czech term because it's focused on Czech/Slovak instances. Various artistic and architectural movements in different countries are "heavily influenced" by others, but can still merit their own article. There seems to be plenty of content here. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then another question pops up. Is it notable enough, are the Czech/Slovak instances mentioned enough in the foreign press to deserve their own separate article, since there isn't much difference between all the instances of this type of building in different countries. Shouldn't this article be reworked in order to encompass all of the instances? - Reanimated X (talk) 15:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A number of people, including myself, have argued yes several times. Please look back through the talk page to see why. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have read it, and no one has countered Dan's arguments so far. And nowhere did I find anything about the article's notability in the above sections. - Reanimated X (talk) 16:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A broader article is located at Tower bloc, and you are of course welcome to expand it to include details of other soviet-influenced architecture. I don't believe there is a more suitable term than Panelak for describing these buildings in the Czech Republic. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have not replied to any of the points I have made since we've started this discussion. For example, all the other instances of such panel buildings constructed of pre-fabricated, pre-stressed concrete in the other ex-communist countries being included here. And if not, is the Czech variant of the building notable enough to deserve its own article. - 19:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reanimated X (talk • contribs)
I have responded to some of your points, but you're right, I didn't respond to your suggestion that it isn't notable. I disagree that it isn't notable. I think there is plenty of content in this article without broadening the topic and I think there is a good, if not overwhelming, amount of press about them. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1) This kind of building technology in English is called Large Panel System or LPS.
2) This is not the same thing as a tower block, which only includes what in Slovakia are called "veziaky" rather than "radova zastavba" and it also includes non-LPS tower blocks.
3) The term "panelak" in Czech and Slovak is not restricted to only Czech and Slovak structures.
4) There should be a joint article on panel system buildings, history (e.g. the Ronan Point collapse in the UK).
5) There is no reason for a separate article on LPS buildings in the Czech Rep or Eastern Europe any more than there is a reason for a separate article on eastern european cars or eastern european women.
6) We English expats use all kinds of local words for things we come into contact with more here than at home - including "obcianka" actually as was mentioned above though we use it to refer to our residence permit cards - because that's what we have to show when someone in a bank or whatever asks for our "obcianka". Another example would be "cukraren" because there isn't really an equivalent sit-down business in English (actually cafe's sell the same range of things, but that word is already taken as the translation for kaviaren), it doesn't mean we could use those words with non-expats and they would have any idea what we are talking about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.237.234.5 (talk) 22:33, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Tourbillon A ? 21:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Tourbillon A ? 10:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
An apartment building in Ukraine
An apartment building in Estonia, looking like a Czech one
A prefabricated house, according to Prefabricated house
An apartment building in Gdansk, Poland
German Plattenbau in Munich
A concrete apartment building in Budapest, Hungary
A concrete apartment building in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
A concrete apartment building in Malmö, Sweden
