Talk:Cello sonata

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Crumb?[edit]

George Crumb sonata? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.142.112 (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment[edit]

The usual form is something like Basic (Symphony eg) No. ___ (Composer), no "No. __" if it's a singleton in the genre for them of course. (I messed up all through that, with lower case for sonata, which creates a different link than upper case. Er-hrm.)

With Friedrich Kiel- here I do think there's more than one sonata; at least his cello music's all been recorded so it's easy to check.

The Prokofiev solo sonata — see http://www.prokofiev.org/catalog/work.cfm?WorkID=127

Ropartz — second sonata (of three I think) is not op. 119#2 but I forget what it is. The recording that coupled the first two is OOP, but I should be able to find out.

Not sure if there is a fixed naming convention for solo cello works as there is for Symphony No. () (...). (no No. 1 if a singleton.) Schissel : bowl listen 18:59, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions as they stand are at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pieces of music). Not writ in stone, of course, but I think it covers common practice and is as good as any other convention we're likely to devise. On "violoncello" versus "cello": it's not something covered in the convention, but I think common usage would suggest "cello" (and we do have a convention written down somewhere to use common names, unless said names are plain Rong, of course). --Camembert

In which connection I'm just a bit disappointed in myself for having edited a [[Cello sonata]] page and then having gone on to create page and category for Violoncello concerto/i (also because I've come to much prefer os to i, and because I really don't like to waste space on unnecessary redirects, but that's just icing on cake. Grmblgr.!) Schissel : bowl listen 14:55, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

Zoltán Kodály Sonata for Solo Cello[edit]

Is the video and audio for this piece on this page really the most appropriate selection? As the article states itself, the most common instrumentation for a cello sonata is cello and piano. Perhaps the Kodály's video and audio should be replaced with something more standard, such as one of the Beethoven or Brahms sonatas?--Hilsa 22:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guywithmako (talk • contribs)

It has been considered a virtual standard for the modern cellist for the last 40+ years that I am aware of. It is also one of most freak difficult level to play, and Starker is pretty much one of most famous 20th century cellists, WHY NOT?Coal town guy (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As the author of Sonata for Solo Cello (Kodály), I have to agree with Guywithmako here. The default understanding of the term "cello sonata" is cello + piano. Kodály wrote a Cello Sonata and a Sonata for Solo Cello, and nobody ever confuses the two. It's reasonable to include solo cello sonatas in this article, but we should have a video of a typical cello sonata, i.e. one with a piano as well. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:35, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have played the cello for over 20 years, Kodaly was the Everest of technique and to watch Starker playing it and discussing it in live interview, I am puzzled at why this sonata, by name and definition, is not to be considered the epitome of a sonatas. As to a "typical" sonatas, I will agree to disagree. Do all of the editors actually play the cello? I am in no way claiming to be an expert or ownership, I am however puzzled by this arbitrary distinction.Coal town guy (talk) 23:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This has nothing to do with the quality of individual sonatas or the virtuosity of individual cellists. Or the cello experience of any editor here. Of all the pieces with "cello" and "sonata" in their title, I would guess about 95% are for cello and piano, and the remaining 5% are for cello and a different instrument or cello alone. That's what I mean by a "typical" cello sonata: one for cello and piano. That's what I mean by the "default" understanding of the term. It doesn't exclude other sonatas, but they shouldn't really be chosen as an example of a typical cello sonata. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WHY?, what data do you base this on? Lets all pretend just for a moment, that none of us played any musical instrument. OK, now, based on the dictionary definition of a sonata, WHY do you maintain, that you GUESS the population of said pieces are of a specific type and composition? I would logically say, Oh, OK, nice feeling, BUT where is the data? UNLESS we get data, how you feel, or how I feel is not at all relevant. Its 2014, not 1890, nor is it 1980, the notions of a default are fine, and great, BUT, I dont want your feelings, I want data that states, OH LOOKY HERE, it just so happens that the default format or venue of a cello sonata is x. Which, is fine. We are not there yet. If you dont want my help, GREAT, I a asking though, WHY. This is again, and I state CLEARLY AGAIN, another roadblock to edits on a topic, where folks feel a certain way, and when another person asks why, I get told, oh, I think its this. Fine, but you willo note, I did not ask how you felt. I asked, WHYCoal town guy (talk) 14:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Webster says..Coal town guy (talk) 15:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Cello sonata[edit]

I propose that List of solo cello pieces be merged into Cello sonata. A solo cello piece is usually, a sonata. Those pieces that are for a solo cello can be noted as such within the main sonata list Coal town guy (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. There may be more sonatas in the list than any other title, but that doesn't mean they're "usually" sonatas. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Question, Then what are they? The attitude that I appear to be encountering does not foster growth. I have hit 3 brick walls while editing material on the cello. One wall, Oh no, they are not usually a sonata, with NO data for an answer. Not helpful and I do want to contribute and I do want to help. Second wall, we appear to have some perceptions about certain composers being noteworthy. IF a known, internationally recognized cellist plays a piece, and then, IN INTERVIEWS, states it is a)difficult and b)virtually part and parcel of the modern cellist list...WHAT is the issue? Third wall, we had a GA (former) for the actual instrument, that article is at best, not complete and at worst, filled with data that really should appear on a How its Made TV show, not an encyclopedia article......I am very very willing to help, but this does in some way, I HOPE mean all of us can cooperate in an environment in which ideas are exchanged, not a the simple gainful naysay of an idea. Coal town guy (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - There is also the page List of compositions for cello and piano. It might make more sense to merge with that one, since the majority of cello sonatas are accompanied. Or, I suppose all three pages could be merged, but I don't think that would be useful. While I'm sure there could be some tidying up of these pages or cross-checking for consistency, they do each appear to me to fulfil a different purpose. Two are extensive lists of compositions and transcriptions of works for solo cello and cello and piano, the other a list of works in the Sonata genre. I find it useful to keep these distinctions, and while they could be highlighted on a single page "List of compositions for cello with or without piano accompaniment", the resulting page would be that much longer and IMO unwieldy. I find it much easier to have a single short page listing just the sonatas, for example. Gpky (talk) 08:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree - there are so many pieces for solo cello, that it makes sense to have a page dedicated to music written for that one instrument. A solo cello piece is not usually a sonata, as stated in the proposal, but literally, for cello solo (alone). Sonatas, by the way, into the Romantic period, was often written as "Sonata for Piano and Cello", a vestigial hint that the cello was originally an accompanying instrument before its rise to a more prominent voice. I also oppose to saying that a sonata is a piece for solo cello because that implies that the piano part is a mere accompaniment - and the truth couldn't be further. A concerto might be for solo cello and orchestra, but a sonata is for (usually, depending on the period it was written in) two equal partners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.214.168.29 (talk) 19:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree to disagree, however, I do not recall being told, hey here is a sonata, by the way, the pianist (fill in the blank accompaniest) will be etc etc, BUT hey, thats me, its all good, lets have several lists for every instrument.....Coal town guy (talk) 17:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Cellists will find this list very useful in locating solo repertoire. Sonatas are a particular form, and having a list of cello sonatas is less useful than the complementary list of pieces for cello and piano. Rconroy (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

SO, we dont have a reference section in this article?? I added one, and golly gee, looks like the definition of a sonata is NOT the commonly accepted non referenced wisdom.......I dont care if we dont agree here, but if you cant back it up with research and a ref, dont waste my time. I know I feel that way when I asked for a merge..ooooooooCoal town guy (talk) 02:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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REFERENCES[edit]

This page has one ref......I do not think anything else needs to be said at this pointCoal town guy (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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