Talk:Karen Blixen

Pseudonym

Isak Dinesen (a mans name) was the pseudonym for Karen Blixen.

Shouldn't the current redirect (Karen Blixen -> Isak Dinesen) be inverted? Alfio 11:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yep. Agree. I made the switch now. Shanes 21:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

In the German speaking parts of Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) she is known and published under the name "Tania Blixen", so I guess it would actually be fair to say that she "was a Danish author also known under her pen names Isak Dinesen and Tania Blixen."--85.178.192.65 (talk) 09:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the article, she wrote in English, Danish, and French. I've never heard about any of her tales being written in French, although they were of course translated? She spent her early years at Rungstedlund, not at Mattrup, which she only visited during holidays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.163.141.13 (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Nobel Prize

The mention of Nobel Prize nominations seems odd. I seem to recall that the Nobel Prize organization does not mention who they have or haven't considered.

I concur. Strictly speaking, there are no official nominations for the prize. --SydSid (talk) 21:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree and have removed the reference to the nobel prize. --Peter Andersen (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That doesn´t seem correct: I recently read an article in the German Newspaper "Die Zeit" where a reference was made to a certain book by a former jury member of the Literature Nobel Prize Comittees. The Swedish Academy and the Nobel Prize in Literature by Bo Svensen Hardcover, Swedish Academy, ISBN 9113008781 (91-1-300878-1). There - to my knowledge- all the nominees until 1950 are listed. So it might well be that Karen Blixen is among them.--85.178.192.65 (talk) 09:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Article placement: Karen Blixen or Isak Dinesen?

I don't get the article placement. Almost all authors with pen names are placed at the pen name, not the real name. Most people have heard of Isak Dinesen, not Karen Blixen, so that's where the article should be. See Mark Twain, Voltaire, George Eliot, Stendhal, Molière, George Orwell, Saki, Lewis Carroll, C. S. Forester, Anatole France, H.D., O. Henry, James Herriot, George Sand, James Tiptree, Jr. I am moving to Isak Dinesen. john k (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While I admit to having limited knowledge of how she is known in the English-speaking part of the world, in Denmark I don't recall hearing her referred to as Isak Dinesen at all and the name Karen Blixen is certainly much better known. While that probably shouldn't be the determining factor on English wikipedia, it does make me wonder: Do you happen to know if the pen name is best known across all of the English-speaking part of the world or just in the United States where it was first introduced? (I tried using google-searching to get some sort of usage ratio, but didn't manage to get a clear result either way.) Hemmingsen 18:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the article renaming should have been discussed here first.

Like Hemmingsen says, in her native Denmark she is very famous by her own name, and totally unknown under her pseudonym. This is probably true for most of the world.

If you use Google searches as a guide, searching the English-only sites gives a 56%-44% split (215000 - 168000) in favor of Isak Dinesen, not a very significant difference. (Nothing like the Mark Twain example.)

Searching with Google for all language sites gives a 65%-35% split (423000 - 228000) in favor of Karen Blixen, a pretty massive difference. I.e., world-wide she is twice as well-known as Karen Blixen as she is known as Isak Dinesen. Taking into account that the English Wikipedia is used by many non-English speakers because it is the most well-developed, I think it makes much more sense to call the article Karen Blixen.

If there are no objections I'll rename the article back tomorrow. --RenniePet (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This is different from the examples given above in that she is very well known under her real name. Myself, a Norwegian, hadn't even heard about the name Isak Dinesen until a few years back. But everyone in Norway, at least, know Karen Blixen. And when I hover the interwiki-links, I notice that all the other wikipedia-languages with an article on her have their article on her under the name Karen Blixen. So should we. Shanes (talk) 22:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree as well. A further argument is that the two museums dedicated to her both bear the name Karen Blixen. IbLeo (talk) 12:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And her Asteroid as well. Named after her real name. As opposed to (from the examples above) Marc Twain's, Voltaire's, Molière's, George Orwell's, James Herriot's and Lewis Carroll's which all have their asteroid named after their much more well known pen names. Shanes (talk) 14:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither her asteroid nor her museums are as well known as her books, which say "Isak Dinesen" on the cover. john k (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've now moved the article (and talk page) back to Karen Blixen. --RenniePet (talk) 17:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but this is ridiculous. We are meant to use the most common name used in English, not the name most commonly used in Danish and other Scandinavian languages. This is particularly true given that, although Danish, she wrote in English. Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, and Britannica all list her under Isak Dinesen. So does Oxford Reference Online's "Dictionary of Writers and Their Works." These are the comparable works that we should be modeling issues like article naming on, I think. And, of course, the main way that people in the English-speaking world have heard of her is through her works, which are universally printed under the author "Isak Dinesen". (And I don't understand the claim that this is America-centric. British Amazon, for instance, also lists her books under Isak Dinesen.) john k (talk) 15:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

> This is particularly true given that, although Danish, she wrote in English.

My understanding is that she wrote in both Danish and English - she was her own translator. (Not 100% sure...)

> These are the comparable works that we should be modeling issues like article naming on, I think.

I disagree. Although Wikipedia claims repeatedly that it is an encyclopedia, it is actually a rather different beast. It is a modern and rapidly evolving child of the Internet age, and has long ago broken out of the encyclopedia mould. What encyclopedia has 1000 articles about The Simpsons? What encyclopedia has the scope and international orientation of Wikipedia? We Wikipedians decide what Wikipedia is, not the dusty old editors of encyclopedias. (How's that for flights of prose? :-) --RenniePet (talk) 21:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Being your own translator is not the same thing as writing in multiple languages. Her major works were first written in English. She later translated them into Danish. As to what Wikipedia is, I don't see how any of that is relevant to this issue - whatever Wikipedia is, broadly speaking, its article on Blixen/Dinesen is pretty comparable to a dusty encyclopedia article about her. john k (talk) 13:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

>We are meant to use the most common name used in English, not the name most commonly used in Danish and other Scandinavian languages.

Going back to your previous message, what you say there is misleading. As I proved previously with Google searches, world-wide "Karen Blixen" is twice as well-known as "Isak Dinesen". "Karen Blixen" is definitely not just a "Danish and other Scandinavian languages" thing.

>As to what Wikipedia is, I don't see how any of that is relevant to this issue ...

My point is that we should be more concerned about the best placement of this article from a pure Wikipedia viewpoint, not from a "how does everyone else do it" viewpoint. And I still think that because of Wikipedia's very international orientation, and the 2-to-1 clear preference for Karen Blixen world-wide (which includes English sites), it makes much more sense to go with that name. --RenniePet (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I am Danish, living in France so presumable not part of the "English-speaking world" you mention. Does that mean that the English Wikipedia is not for me?? I think you are entering dangerous territory here. Besides, I find your statement about British Amazon biased. As far as I can see, some of her books are credited to Karen Blixen [1] while some are credited to both Karen Blixen and Isak Dinesen [2]. Finally, in the Petit Larousse (1995 version, I don't have a more recent one) she is found under Karen Blixen. So it is not just in Scandinavia she is mostly known as Karen Blixen. – IbLeo (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Articles in the English Wikipedia are to be named based on usage in the English language, not overall usage. This of course does not mean that the English Wikipedia is not for you. But naming articles should be done based on English usage. We have Copenhagen, not København, after all. john k (talk) 02:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Copenhagen is the English word for København just like Florence is it for Firenze. So we agree on that example. It is however, in my eyes, a different discussion than Karen Blixen vs. her writer pseudonym Isak Dinesen. Both are valid English (and Danish, French, German, etc.) names. Talking about German, although her books are issued under the pseudonym Tania Blixen [3], she is listed as Karen Blixen in the German Wikipedia. – IbLeo (talk) 04:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) For what it's worth, I didn't claim that using the pen name is America-centric, I only wondered whether it might be and I was asking out of interest, not proposing to revert your move. If I search google with site:.uk, site:.au or site:.nz, I get (slightly) more results for "Karen Blixen" than for "Isak Dinesen",[4][5][6][7][8][9] so it's not an entirely Scandinavian thing. That being said, how those reference works you list refer to her, is in my humble opinion the first convincing argument for either of the two titles. Hemmingsen 17:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

As both her real name and pen name seem to have substantial usage, I think her real name makes more sense to default to. In terms of how she is best known in the modern English-speaking world, I would suggest it is perhaps (unfortunately) not as an author, but rather as a character in a movie.--Trystan (talk) 17:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

That's another good point, but wouldn't using her real name mean Blixen-Finecke (or maybe the maiden name Dinesen)? As far as I know, neither Karen Blixen nor Isak Dinesen are actually correct names, only commonly used ones, but I might be wrong? Hemmingsen 18:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely "Isak Dinesen" is the "correct" name in the same sense that Mark Twain, et al, are "correct"? john k (talk) 20:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not convinced that using the real name would be the solution. Then, by the same rationale we would also have to move Roger McGuinn (another person who has made himself known under several names) to James Joseph McGuinn III, which I doubt anybody would support. I rather think we should use the name under which she is most widely known worldwide today. – IbLeo (talk) 12:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Reviewing List of notable pen names, there is ample precedent for using either her real name or her pen name for the article. I would suggest, given that both names are widely used, that her real name would make the most sense to default to. Karen Blixen may not be her full legal name, but it seems to be the name by which she is generally referred to.--Trystan (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the precedents on that page argue fairly strongly in favor of Isak Dinesen. The ones who have articles at their real name are usually either writers who wrote some works under a pseudonym and other, more famous works, under their real name (e.g. Richard Bachman for Stephen King); or else people who were once pseudonymous, but are now published under their real name (e.g. Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell for the Brontë sisters). The situation is admittedly somewhat complicated - Blixen, under her real name, is the main character of the most famous of Dinesen's books (and the well-known movie based on it). I'd still tend towards the pen name, though. john k (talk) 13:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Tania vs. Tanne

I just reverted an edit of Kelly A. Siebecke changing "Tania" to "Tanne". While I don't necessarily disagree with the change, I would like to see it referenced by a trustworthy source. Until then, I find "Tania" more credible knowing that her books in German are issued under pseudonym Tania Blixen. – IbLeo (talk) 04:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

On http://www.karenblixen.com/auto.html you will find the following statement:

"The car was given to Karen Blixen in 1936 by her relative, countess Wedel of Wedelsborg, one of Denmark's most affluent, noble families, and the adventurous author grew so fond of "Henry", as she nicknamed her Ford, that she kept it for 25 years. According to the customs certificate, "Henry" was registered to baroness Karen Blixen-Finecke, Rungsted, on May 7th 1936, and her own nickname within the family, "Tanne", appears in a metal monogram on the dashboard: "TBF", for Tanne Blixen-Finecke." Apparently the nick "Tanne" stems from Blixen´s way of pronouncing "Karen" when she was a toddler, which - if you consider how babies sometimes mix up and confuse sounds in language and if you pronounce the words in Danish - makes sense to me.I do not know the reason why she is published in German under "Tania", but I have a guess why it´s not "Tanne" since "Tanne" means "fir tree" in German.--85.178.192.65 (talk) 10:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The Catcher in the Rye

The first person of Salinger's "The Catcher in the Rye", Holden reads and recommends Isak Dinsen's "Out of Africa". I wonder if that is worth mentioning.--Timtak (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been reverted by a bot to this version as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) This has been done to remove User:Accotink2's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. VWBot (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted since the edit revealed no copyvios. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Bror Blixen Probably Not The Cause of Karen Blixen's Ill Health

There is plenty of evidence that Bror Blixen did not cause his wife's syphilis, according to biographer Judith Thurman. Although Bror had numerous mistresses as well as casual encounters throughout his life, none of these women developed syphilis, nor did he himself have any symptom of the disease. Thurman believed that Karen Blixen's claim to the contrary arose from the extreme bitterness of their separation, from her habit of self-dramatization, and from her denial of the far more likely scenario: that she had hereditary syphilis, inherited from her diseased father. Given these facts, the article should correct the long-standing misconception about Bror Blixen's culpability. Younggoldchip (talk) 18:32, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

"Hereditary syphilis" means you have contracted it from your diseased mother during childbirth. If your mother is not diseased, you cannot inherit it from your diseased father. Syphilis is not in the genes. 84.129.110.240 (talk) 21:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Dinesen's father (according to Thurman) contracted the disease when he lived among American Indians as a young man. She believed he probably infected his wife after marrying, and that that is how Dinesen contracted the disease. Of course it would be sacriligeous to suggest that Denis Finch-Hatton (who did have other mistresses) gave her the illness. Personally I think there's room for doubt that she ever had the disease. She tested disease-free, after treatments which, these days, we would consider worse than useless. Younggoldchip (talk) 21:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

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In 1959, Blixen made her only trip to the United States. ??????

There is no mention in the article of her appearances on Dick Cavett's TV show. I know they occurred, because I saw them and was aghast at how thin she was. I think they were after 1959. I will try to research this.TRIKER1 (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

why did she move to Kenya?

The article says her uncle suggested they go to Kenya to start a coffee farm, and he invested in such. Then it says "initially they planned to raise cattle but eventually became convinced that coffee would become more profitable." Which was it? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 03:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Geographical and other inconsistencies

The article states that the Karen Blixen plantation was to the NORTH of Nairobi near the Ngong Hills: however, the plantation is most definitely DUE WEST and SLIGHTLY SOUTH of Nairobi proper. The Ngong Hills are quite definitely to the south-west of Nairobi. Perhaps this should be fixed?

Also, the article states that the coffee plantation failed due to the altitude being too high: The altitude of Karen is approx. 5200 feet, which is ideally suited for growing coffee. The problem was not altitude but rather poor soils (and likely mismanagement).

Also, Nairobi (and Karen) are hundreds of kilometers to the east of Lake Victoria...not generally understood to be part of the "Great Lakes" region.

41.212.112.11 (talk) 06:28, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I corrected location but the statement that the elevation was to blame is supported by references. Ruslik_Zero 18:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)