Talk:Sullivan Expedition

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Terminology[edit]

Tories? In 1799? Where did they come from, Canada? RickK 02:41, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Good. We'll get it right eventually. Actually I didn't realize that "Congress" cross referenced automatically to United States Congress. Thanks. Pollinator 06:21, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The following sentence links to a Civil War battle of 1864: "The Iroquois warriors continued their devastating raids throughout the war (Burning of the Valleys campaign of 1780), rolling back white settlement to Albany for a time." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.194.32 (talk) 21:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Why say this?

"against Loyalists ("Tories") and the four Nations of the Haudenosaunee"

Why not say this instead?

"against the four Nations of the Haudenosaunee and Loyalists ("Tories")"

The campaign was explicitly, specifically directed against the Haudenosaunee, was it not? It's not like it was "Oh, yeah, and perhaps also the Haudenosaunee". Sheesh. This was a wipe-out-the-Iroquois Sherman-style, leave nothing standing campaign against a civilian population. It wasn't a seek-out-the-Tories operation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.23.5 (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pennsylvania battle(s)[edit]

Some references describe battles in PA, possibly including the first one. I'll investigate next time I'm at the Newtown museum. Below from The Pool Tribe of Bradford County by George Lasco, 400 Main, Athens PA, Copyright 1987, George Lasco. Reprinted here.


Pioneers began settling along the Susquehanna in the early 1700s but due to an Indian uprising in the 1760s, settlements were uncertain at best. When the war for independence began in 1776 Indians joined the British, pushing pioneers eastward to the Stroudsburg area. This was called The Great Runaway of 1778 caused mainly by the Iroquois. In a strategic response George Washington sent General John Sullivan and an army of four to six thousand to Tioga Point which is now called Athens [about 20 miles north of Towanda]. Sullivan’s brutal and brilliant campaign of 1778 crippled the Iroquois at Newtown Hill. Genacgenacgenac (talk) 18:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

I think it would be useful if someone could get a map of his route if its well enough known.24.182.142.254 (talk) 02:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Cleansing?[edit]

Is there a compelling reason for not mentioning ethnic cleansing at all in this article? 132.236.106.237 (talk) 20:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath[edit]

I removed the word "controversial" from the Aftermath section. Use of the word 'controversial' necessitates an explanation of the controversy. Using 'controversial' without an explanation does not enhance the understanding of, or inform, the reader. If 'controversial' is used, the situation needs to be described in context, in a way which makes the controversy understandable and apparent. It cannot be assumed that the reader understands the controversy. Hackercraft (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Town Burner nickname[edit]

"Notes 1" claims that Washington earned the nickname of "Town Burner" from this expedition, which is false. Washington had this nickname since the 1750s, when he was given the nickname by the Iroquois when they learned he was the great-grandson of John Washington, who also had the nickname.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.58.160.51 (talk) 12:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is your source for verification? —ADavidB 00:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I found some sources and have updated the note accordingly. —ADavidB 02:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Location of events[edit]

Would someone with accurate knowledge of colonial geography please clarify the locations of the various battles. I believe that “Wyoming Valley“ is now in the state of Pennsylvania and “Cherry Valley“ is now in the state of New York. But were they part of those states at the time of the battles? I believe there was uncertainty over the boundaries of states in that era, and the boundaries might not have stretched to these communities at that time at all. I haven’t found a contemporary map which resolves it in my mind. The journals of Butler and Sullivan don’t seem to attribute them to any state. For that matter, were the communities distinct villages or larger areas of settlement? As a previous editor pointed out, a good map of the area showing the locations of communities and the routes taken by Butler’s Rangers, the Haudenosaunee, and Sullivans Continental Army. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 03:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Battle of Wyoming took place in what is now northeastern Pennsylvania. At the time the Wyoming Valley was claimed by both Connecticut and Pennsylvania. The Cherry Valley Massacre occurred in Tryon County, New York. The Battle of Newtown occurred in what is now the southern tier of New York but at the time was the territory of the Haudenosaunee. Brodhead's expedition operated in what is now western Pennsylvania and southwestern New York. Once again there were overlapping claims, but the area was officially part of the Province of Quebec and was the territory of the Shawnee, Lenape (Delaware), Mingo and Seneca. Griffin's Sword (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overview and Notes in the Introduction[edit]

In many places this section repeats information that was previously stated (e.g., the numerous references to breaking the power of the Iroquois. This section also contains some awkward sentences and curious phrasing (e.g., ruining the Iroquois technological infrastructure.)

The last sentence of the Overview is inaccurate. Large raids continued in 1780 in the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys. After wintering at Fort Niagara, many of the Seneca and Cayuga resettled at Buffalo Creek south of Fort Niagara. Iroquois settlement at the Grand River and the Bay of Quinte Region in what is now Ontario didn't begin until 1784.

One officer who participated in the Sullivan Campaign noted, ""The nests are destroyed, but the birds are still on the wing."

My intention is to simplify the Overview and also remove the notes from the Introduction. The information contained in the notes may be moved elsewhere in the article or deleted. Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Massacres[edit]

The article names three "massacres" of "American villagers" in the lead, falsely inferring that the mass killing of non-combatants occurred in all three places. While non-combatants were killed at Cherry Valley, there were only three deaths at German Flatts, and it was Patriot soldiers fleeing from the battlefield that were "massacred" at Wyoming. The phrase "where the Iroquois and British massacred American villagers" will be deleted.

The categories "Massacres of Native Americans by the United States military" and "Massacres in the American Revolutionary War" will also be deleted since it is clear from the article that no massacres of Native Americans occurred during the Sullivan Expedition. Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Illustration of the burning of Newtown[edit]

All the illustrations of memorials and commemorations show only one side of the story. Would someone with the necessary skills please add the illustration of the burning of Newtown. It is commons file Sullivan01.jpg Humphrey Tribble (talk) 01:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is a bit busy with images, though I added the Sullivan01.jpg file to the Expedition section. —ADavidB 06:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Moderation Continues to Whitewash Genocide[edit]

Using phrases such as "met little resistance" fails to recognize the reality that Washington expressly ordered systematic ethnic cleansing. A quote from Washington to Sullivan:

"I would recommend, that some post in the center of the Indian Country, should be occupied with all expedition, with a sufficient quantity of provisions whence parties should be detached to lay waste all the settlements around, with instructions to do it in the most effectual manner, that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.”

The constant desire for many with moderation duties to paint these events as equitable to active military engagements between belligerents is ahistorical and serves political ends instead of a record of facts.

Ultimately this is not the work of archivism or historical accuracy, but a form of propaganda that takes the shape of sourced articles.

This page needs a mass overhaul. 71.176.66.98 (talk) 12:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Scalp Bounty Claims Discredited[edit]

Wyoming, German Flatts, and Cherry Valley didn't happen because of scalp bounties, nor is it within the scope of this article to explain why the attacks occurred. It is sufficient to state that George Washington's response was to order "the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible."

Although it has often been claimed that the British paid for scalps during the American Revolution there is little evidence to support this. British scalp bounties were largely Patriot propaganda. One noted example is A Supplement to The Boston Independent Chronicle — a forgery authored by Benjamin Franklin that falsely detailed the aledged atrocities committed at the behest of the British army.

In her comprehensive 1984 biography of Joseph Brant, historian Isabel Thompson Kelsay wrote:

No British officer and gentleman sent the Indians out for scalps in the enlightened era of the American Revolution. What the officers did was send the Indians out on the warpath. Bringing back scalps was the warriors' own idea — an idea which was very distressing to the while military, especially when the scalps belonged to women and children. (p. 303)

Gregory Down echoed this in his 2016 Groundless: Rumor, Legends, and Hoaxes on the Early American Frontier.

The article cites Seaver's A Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jemison as its source. Published in 1824, Seaver's work is based on the recollections of an eighty-year-old women who had been taken captive and adopted by the Seneca when she was twelve. The account is obviously coloured by Seaver's biases, and reflects the zeitgeist of early 19th-century America.

The reason why the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga and Cayuga supported the British was not because they were "hired to commit depredations upon the whites." Such a claim diminishes Indigenous agency. The main reason for Indigenous involvement in the Revolutionary War was the threat of European encroachment on their land. The British Crown appeared willing to preserve Indigenous territory. The American Congress did not. Griffin's Sword (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the text from Jemison in question:

Thus, at peace amongst themselves, and with the neighboring whites, though there were none at that time very near, our Indians lived quietly and peaceably at home, till a little before the breaking out of the revolutionary war, when they were sent for, together with the Chiefs and members of the Six Nations generally, by the people of the States, to go to the German Flats, and there hold a general council, in order that the people of the states might ascertain, in good season, who they should esteem and treat as enemies, and who as friends, in the great war which was upon the the point of breaking out between them and the King of England.

Our Indians obeyed the call, and the council was holden, at which the pipe of peace was smoked, and a treaty made, in which the Six Nations solemnly agreed that if a war should eventually break out, they would not take arms on either side; but that they would observe a strict neutrality. The Indians returned to their homes well pleased that they could live on neutral ground, surrounded by the din of war, without being engaged in it.

About a year passed off, and we, as usual, were enjoying ourselves in the employments of peaceable times, when a messenger arrived from the British Commissioners, requesting all the Indians of our tribe to attend a general council which was soon to be held at Oswego. The council convened, and being opened, the British Commissioners informed the Chiefs that the object of calling a council of the Six Nations, was, to engage their assistance in subduing the rebels, the people of the states, who had risen up against the good King, their master, and were about to rob him of a great part of his possessions and wealth, and added that they would amply reward them for all their services.

The Chiefs then arose, and informed the Commissioners of the nature and extent of the treaty which they had entered into with the people of the states, the year before, and that they should not violate it by taking up the hatchet against them.

The Commissioners continued their entreaties without success, till they addressed their avarice, by telling our people that the people of the states were few in number, and easily subdued; and that on the account of their disobedience to the King, they justly merited all the punishment that it was possible for white men and Indians to inflict upon them; and added, that the King was rich and powerful, both in money and subjects: That his rum was as plenty as the water in lake Ontario: that his men were as numerous as the sands upon the lake shore:—and that the Indians, if they would assist in the war, and persevere in their friendship to the King, til it closed, should never want for money or goods. Upon this the Chiefs concluded a treaty with the British Commissioners, in which they agreed to take up arms against the rebels, and continue in the service of his Majesty till they were subdued, in considerations which were stipulated in the treaty to be performed by the British government and its agents.

As soon as the treaty was finished, the Commissioners made a present to each Indian of a suit of clothes, a brass kettle, a gun and tomahawk, a scalping knife, a quantity of powder and lead, a piece of gold, and promised a bounty on every scalp that should be brought in. Thus richly clad and equipped, they returned home, after an absence of about two weeks, full of the fire of war, and anxious to encounter their enemies. Many of the kettles which the Indians received at that time are now in use on the Genesee Flats.

Hired to commit depredations upon the whites, who had given them no offence, they waited impatiently to commence their labor, till sometime in the spring of 1776, when a convenient opportunity offered for them to make an attack. At that time, a party of our Indians were at Cau-te-ga, who shot a man that was looking after his horse, for the sole purpose, as I was informed by my Indian brother, who was present, of commencing hostilities.

In May following, our Indians were in their first battle with the Americans; but at what place I am unable to determine. While they were absent at that time, my daughter Nancy was born.

The question is not whether Washington ordered an attack on the Indians, it is why the Indians had earlier attacked Cherry Valley, etc. You say it's beyond the scope of this article, but in fact, it crucial to this article.MorganDWright (talk) 14:36, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you say "The British Crown appeared willing to preserve Indigenous territory. The American Congress did not." That may have been true in 1763, but now that the Revolutionary War was on, the Crown was hiring mercenaries from all quarters. Were the German Hessians and Brunswickers not employed? Did it "diminish their agency" as you said? The Crown hired soldiers whenever and wherever it could. The brass kettles mentioned in the above text can still be found in the Rochester area.MorganDWright (talk) 14:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The soldiers of Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Hanau, and Brunswick-Wolfrenbüttle did lack agency. They were hired out as auxilleries to Great Britain by their respective rulers, all of whom had family connections to George III.
The English, French and Dutch were trading brass kettles for furs to the Iroquois long before the Revolutionary War.
The use of The Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jeminson as a sole source is problematic. In her 1992 edition of Jemison's narrative, University of Alaska Anchorage historian Nina Somebody noted that there is "an unavoidable problem" in determining which were Jemison's own words, and which were "doctored up" by Dr. Seaver.
The reason why four of the six Iroquois nations eventually supported the British is complex. An "alliance" between the Iroquois and the British had existed since the conquest of New Netherland in 1664. Officers of the British Indian Department such as John Butler and Daniel Claus had considerable influence, building on the relationship nurtured by Sir William Johnson. Most historians agree, however, that ending the encroachment upon Indigenous lands was the major factor. Barbara Graymont, author of The Iroquois in the American Revolution wrote: "The steady loss of land aroused in the Iroquois a pervasive anxiety ... coupled with this anxiety was a resolve that this fate should never befall them."
The British government did try to restrict the flow of settlers into Indigenous territory. In the Royal Proclamation of 1763, the Crown established the Appalachian Mountains as the limit of colonial settlement. The 1768 Treaty of Fort Stanwix refined this boundary. The 1774 Quebec Act (one of the Intolerable Acts) assigned the Ohio Country and the Illinois Country to the Province of Quebec, shutting out land-speculators including George Washington. Among the charges levelled against King George III in the Declaration of Independence was that he had “endeavoured to prevent the population of these states.”
The Declaration of Independence also declared that George III "has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions." When the Declaration was published, the Iroquois were still neutral.
This article, however, is about the Sullivan Expedition and should therefore explain why George Washington ordered the campaign, as opposed to why the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga and Mohawk supported the British. Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath of the Sullivan Expedition[edit]

The "Aftermath" section is rather disjointed and would benefit from a more chronological organization. Some of the information is incomplete or misleading. Revisions are forthcoming.

It is unclear how John Butler's quote about food shortages in 1778 applies to the aftermath of the 1779 expedition.

The attack on Canojaharie (anachronistically called Minden) in August 1780 was just one of several devastating raids in 1780. A raid on Harpersfield in April led by Joseph Brant killed three and took 11 prisoners. In May 1780, Iroquois warriors accompanied Sir John Johnson and the Kings Royal Regiment of New York in a raid that burned every building in Caughnawaga except for the church. In October, Johnson led a second expedition against the Schoharie and Mohawk valleys in which 200 dwellings were burned and 150,000 tons of grain destroyed. 265 Iroquois warriors including Brant, Cornplanter and Sayenqueraghta participated in this expedition during which 40 patriot militia were killed at the Battle of Stone Arabia. Butler reported that 59 war parties set out from Fort Niagara between February and September 1780. Barbara Graymont, author of The Iroquois in the American Revolution, writes that in 1780, the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys saw 330 men, women and children killed or taken prisoner, six forts and several mills destroyed, and over 700 houses and barns burned.

The use of the phrase "four-year civil war" is confusing. The Revolutionary War began in 1775 with significant Iroquois involvement beginning in 1777 and continuing until 1782.

Roughly 5000 Iroquois fled to Fort Niagara, but by November 1779 the number of refugees had dropped considerably. Two Seneca villages west of the Genesee River had escaped destruction and were able to absorb some of the refugees. A number of refugees at Fort Niagara relocated to Carleton Island, and some returned to their razed villages. After wintering at Fort Niagara, most of the remaining Seneca and Cayuga resettled at Buffalo Creek to the south of Fort Niagara. Iroquois settlement on the Grand River and in the Bay of Quinte area didn't begin until 1784.

For her 2018 article, Rhiannon Koehler used questionable methodology to estimate that 55.5% of the Iroquois (4,500) died as a result of the Sullivan-Clinton and the related Van Schaick and Brodhead expeditions. Her source, Anthony Wallace's Death and Rebirth of the Seneca, however, clearly states that this estimated halving of the Iroquois population happened over a much longer period of the time, specifically the start of the Revolutionary War to the 1797 Treaty of Big Tree.

Koehler fails to account for most of the 4,500 deaths. She acknowledges that primary sources do not record the number of deaths at Niagara during the winter of 1780 but still estimates that one in five of the refugees died from starvation, exposure or disease. She further asserts that between 473 and 580 deaths occurred due to direct military action. The primary sources she cites, however, fail to support these numbers. Perplexingly, she records that more than 400 of these deaths happened on three dates that do not correspond to any known events.

In 1784, when Governor Haldimand granted the Iroquois land along the Grand River, only 1,450 followed Joseph Brant there. Others settled with John Deseronto on the Bay of Quinte. A significant number remained at Buffalo Creek while still others returned to their traditional territories.

The relocation of some of the Seneca and Cayuga to Oklahoma happened in 1831. The relocation of some of the Oneida to Wisconsin happened in 1838. New York still has a sizeable Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga and Oneida population. Griffin's Sword (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "technological infrastructure" has been removed from Overview as it is anachronistic when applied to the Iroquois during the Revolutionary War. "The strength of the Iroquois Confederacy was broken" has also been removed (reason given above). Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article cites Allan Eckert's Wilderness War. Although Eckert says that his book "is fact, not fiction,” it is written as historical fiction and contains some notable errors. For example, Eckert mangles the names of Sayenqueraghta and Cornplanter and claims they died at Newtown. Better sources are Graymont, Mintz and Williams. Griffin's Sword (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Expedition[edit]

Considerable detail was missing from the section. Important events such as the Battle of Newtown and the Boyd-Parker Massacre were barely covered. Section has been revised using William's Head of the Hangman and Mintz's Seeds of Empire as the principal sources. Still need to copy edit the sections on Broadhead's expedition and Teantontalago, and add a section about the British response during the expedition (e.g., Haldimand belatedly sending reinforcements in a case of "too little, too late." Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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