Talk:Irene Papas

Date of Birth

Can anyone confirm Irene Papas' birth year. While researching, I stumbled on many dates, however 1929 seemed the most common. Aggelophoros 07:01, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC) It is not possible to confirm the exact birth year given records in that part of Corinth - if not destroyed by the Axis in WWII, would have been destroyed by the Communists during the Civil War.

IP's song repertoire included many recordings of Mikis Theororakis songs, and she rivaled the more famous Greek interpreters of his songs - Soula Birlbili, Maria Farandouri - and was a strong rival for Mela Mercouri as a singer, although IP had a much wider range as an actress. There is some confusion whether she is an art gallery director, or still pursuing acting, in this time frame. Sidney Orr (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The Enciclopedia Italiana shows the birth year of Irene Papas as 1926. However, the date is March 9, not September 3 as the article reads right now. http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/papas-irene-nata-lelekou_(Enciclopedia-Italiana)/ CryMeAnOcean (talk) 19:24, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

There has been an extensive discussion on this point, and it appears that the Enciclopedia Italiana is mistaken. A Greek IP editor has located the Greek Interior Ministry's database of births at http://www.ypes.gr/ypes/eterodhmotes3/wizard.asp. Entering 3014929000653 in the E.E.A. box and clicking on Αναζήτηση returns (with English glosses added in parentheses):

Ειδ.Εκλογικός Αριθμός : 3014929000653 Φύλο : ΘΗΛΥ Επώνυμο : ΛΕΛΕΚΟΥ - ΠΑΠΑ (Lelekou - Papa) Όνομα : ΕΙΡΗΝΗ (Eirene) Όνομα Πατέρα : ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ (Stavros) Όνομα Μητέρας : ΕΛΕΝΗ (Eleni) Όνομα Συζύγου : Γένος : ΛΕΛΕΚΟΣ (Lelekos) Ημ/νια Γέννησης : 3/9/1929 (3 September 1929) Αρ.Δημοτολογίου : 31114/6 Δήμος ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΩΝ Νομός : ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΑΣ Δημοτική Ενότητα : ΤΕΝΕΑΣ Εκλογικο Διαμέρισμα : ΧΙΛΙΟΜΟΔΙΟΥ (Khiliomodiou) Εκλογική Περιφέρεια : ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΑΣ (Corinth)

This has convinced Greek Wikipedia to adopt this 1929 date of birth as definitive. I've therefore updated this article accordingly. Please do not change it without presenting fresh evidence here first. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:51, 14 October 2018 (UT

The purported government links cited above used to support the change of Papas's year of birth from 1926 to 1929 are invalid (404 message), although this GREEK SOURCE cites 1926. Greek actresses are among the most equivocal regarding age in my experience. Melina Mercouri's year of birth has still not been determined, despite her fame and that of her family, to within a period of five years (1920-1925). Zoe Laskari's YOB is questionable as well, IMHO. I strongly doubt the economically bankrupt Greek government is going to spend money to create an online index for us Internet "Lookie-loos". MORE DISCUSSION and more sources needed before changing Papas's year of birth, IMHO. Also, IMDb lists Papas' height as 5'10". Any ideas, anyone? Seems a tad hard to believe but anything is possible, I guess. UnhappyCanuck (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts. Please note that this has been extensively debated - a lot of ink for one Byte of information, to say the least. Please also note that this is Not a Forum for discussion of Greece, its actresses, or its government (or indeed, anything at all except the article). As for the Greek ministry's database, it was genuine but I'm not surprised they've taken it offline for the public. On the date of birth, the only thing we can say for sure is that at least one of the dates is wrong. I'm inclined to write "is commonly given as" and cite the Enciclopedia Italiana to that effect, i.e. we should avoid using Wikipedia's voice for any particular date, given the continuing arguments. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, the database query (ref.1) is a dead link, as pointed out it gives a 404 file not found error. I've tried rescuing it and found this archive. I tried typing in the EEA given (3014929000653) but it said "Δεν υπάρχουν αποτελέσματα για τα κριτήρια της αναζήτησης σας" meaning "There are no results for your search criteria"
Going back to the current home page for the Greek Ministry of the Interior, I found a Special Registry page, but the birth records only go back as far as the 1980s for some reason, so that's not a lot of use.
This recent electoral roll looked promising too, but if I type in the EEA and Surname Παπάς there are "no results found". If I use her birth name Λελέκου I do get a result but alas it does not include her birth date!
It seems wrong to uphold the 1929 birth year without concrete evidence, when all the other sources seem to refute it. Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I did the same a while back, and it worked, so it looks as if the Ministry has closed it to the public, as I already indicated. Whether that's because of confidentiality or anything else... Obviously navigating to a now-locked database via an archive link isn't going to return a result. I'm going to indicate that the date of birth is said to be 1926[ref], rather than claiming that we know. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey. What's up. What about this link? I don't read Greek but I saw the year 1926. :::::::Yours, UnhappyCanuck (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

We need to make the article plain, clear, and not misleading. Enciclopedia Italiana is a careful and reliable source but nothing is perfect, and the date has been challenged. Further, non-official Greek sources are unfortunately exactly the ones we must be most suspicious of: if someone produced 20 theatre reviews and programme notices, all presumably copied from I.P. or her agent (or each other), it would add no reliable evidence. I do not think we can do better than attributing a source at the moment; to justify putting it in Wikipedia's voice as something definite, if that's your intention, is impossible without evidence as solid as a birth certificate, so until an obituary notice in The New York Times appears, we'll just have to wait. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The page on Greek Wikipedia however has several citations for 1929. Maybe we need a footnote at least. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

OK. I got it. Just curious, if you are a fan of Papas, do you believe IMDb is accurate regarding their claim re her height, i.e. 5'10"?

Also, September 3 is 03/09 in dd/mm/yyyy format style. You mentioned (above) that the now defunct Greek government index indicates

Ημ/νια Γέννησης : 3/9/1929 (3 September 1929)

so is it March 9 or September 3? UnhappyCanuck (talk) 22:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no doubt some of the proposed dates are mistaken, the only question is which. We should cite the (other) Greek sources also rather than talking ad infinitum. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I've added three Greek sources which concur on the date; it looks indeed as if Enciclopedia Italiana has swapped the 3/9 for 9/3; there is at the moment no usable source for 1929 but if one appears we can add it in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Age at death

Alright, now that Papas is dead, I felt like this was probably worth discussing again, given that her age has been changed a few times on this page and others. 96 seems like the most common age sources went with, but several went with 93 - Deadline (which specifically says born in 1929), Washington Post, The Independent, etc. Most interesting to me is this Bloomberg article. It says 93, and quotes Papas herself saying she was born in 1929 and sources made her look older. Judging from the records mentioned out there, this is probably true, so IMO, it should at least be noted in the article. Nohomersryan (talk) 21:52, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I really don't think the jury is out on this one. Just lazy journalism from some otherwise respectable news sources. Both the Hollywood Reporter and Bloomberg quote Papas clarifying that she was born in 1929 (she also addresses the erroneous 1926 year). If further evidence is needed, there are Passenger and Crew Lists that record her from November 1962 and December 1962. They both state that Irene Papas / Irene Lelekou Papa was born on 3 September 1929. There is also a birth record from the (now defunct) online Greek records here which once again states 3 September 1929. If there are no objections, I think we should scrub the 1926 birth year as there is no real evidence that supports it. --Jkaharper (talk) 08:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I suspect you are correct; the confusion (probably due to the respected Enciclopedia Italiana) is widespread and long-standing. It would help if we were sure that the " (now defunct) online Greek record" that you picture was indeed genuine; I visited it while it was up and running, and it certainly looked like a not-very-navigable official database; its demise is a bit puzzling, however. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:16, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Why is it lazy journalism from those who write 96 and not 93? There are multiple reliable sources on both dates. Kirill C1 (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

The trouble is that the one mistake by Enciclopedia Italiana has been repeated and multiplied by other "reliable sources", resulting in an exceptionally long-running confusion, which we are now at risk of propagating. The Bloomberg quotation from Papas affirming 1929 and directly addressing the 1926 mistake must however be decisive. I'll fix the article now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:07, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Greek media seem to be just as divided as international media, some say 93 and some say 96.

Greek Wikipedia apparently have taken the easy way out, they state both birth years and ages.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B7_%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%AC

It seems to work, because no one has wanted to change it (yet). Maybe it is preferable instead of the constant

changing back and forth that seems to be a recurring tedious theme on the English Wikipedia. 194.69.14.132 (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the thought. However, we certainly don't want to propagate uncertainty, any more than error. The article has today been edited to provide an explanation of the date and evidence that it is correct, both in the citation and in a footnote. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Why are we so sure that that date is the correct one. Why we should eliminate the sources that cite 96? If the reliable sources are divided, we should cite both. We are not to make conclusions on what is mistake and what is not Kirill C1 (talk) 17:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I saw that you restored url, I think that is right thing to do. I personally think that both dates should be in the article Kirill C1 (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Why you think that Enciclopedia made mistake? I think that both source should be listed. We do the same for other articles Kirill C1 (talk) 17:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The EI and its date-with-two-mistakes is cited in a footnote. Both errors are 6/9 replacements, which certainly sounds like a mixup; but the reason I think so is that the quotation in the footnote makes clear that Papas knew of the error, found it funny, and stated on the record, cited at the top of the article and in the footnote, that she was born on the later date. Please read the quote and you and others will see that it is decisive. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I saw the footnote. "This error was propagated by other sources (for example, Finos Film)" How can we know it's an error? She stated the date, Ok. Don't get me wrong, and I do not want to sound disrepectful. But how can we be 100% sure the date is correct? Did anyone, a journalist or biographer research this and has made any conclusions ? Kirill C1 (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Associated Press states the following: ' "She was 93. ... Papas publicly joked that she was often quoted as being three years older than her actual age. She started a 2004 interview with Greek state television by saying, “I was born on Sept. 3, 1929. All the papers are there in Chiliomodi,” which is located near the southern Greek city of Corinth." ' We thus have a reliable independent source reporting 1) that Papas was aware of the 1926 error; b) that she found it funny; 3) that she was 93, not 96, in 2022; 4) that her date of birth was 3 September 1929 (rather than Enciclopedia Italiana's doubly-wrong 9 March 1926). More conclusive than that it would be hard to imagine. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

These articles said she was 96. Matt Campbell (talk) 20:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the reason for this discussion was as Papas said that an earlier date for her birth had wrongly got about. It seems that one source copied another, based on the Enciclopedia Italiana error, as discussed. The error is already described in the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:25, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm all for a proper debate on this, but users/anon IPs coming on here saying "but the NYT says this" isn't a valid enough reason in itself to include both years. We must take what the subject said herself as truth, unless there is evidence to the contrary that she wasn't being honest. That, and the screen grabs of the Greek birth index and the passenger records from her trips to the States all suggest 1929 is indeed correct. I am yet to see anything concrete that suggests 1926 is plausible. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

After corresponding with a journalist at The Guardian, her obituary there has been changed to say that she was 93 and born in 1929. After I raised this with them, they fact checked it with one of their Greek correspondents who confirmed she was indeed born in 1929. Her obituary now says "This obituary was amended on 22nd September to correct Irene Papas’s age and date of birth. She was born in 1929, not 1926. She was 93 when she died, not 96.". The NY Times have barely any useful contact info available to non-subscribers and generally ignore emails, otherwise I would try to get it amended there too. EDIT: I see The Telegraph have also amended their obituary following my email to them. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that! Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

References

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dementia

She has dementia. (217.42.104.187 (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC))

Do you have references for that? The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

There are multiple reports from the Greek media online. (217.42.104.187 (talk) 23:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC))

I can't find a good reference in English, and I'm not familiar with Wikipedia rules/guidelines for references in a language other than the entry's. But if you can list your best references (the ones used in her Greek Wikipedia page about her dementia, if it mentions that, are probably best) here, maybe someone more familiar with that aspect (or bolder than me) can add that info. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Albanian claims

Βατο: Some unreliable Albanian sources have claimed that Papas has Albanian descent. A popular Albanian newspaper claimed to have interviewed Papas, and claimed that she had said she "probably" had Albanian descent. There is no evidence either for the actual descent or for what she really said (or even that the interview actually occurred, I am afraid that newspapers of a certain sort make stories up in many countries including my own). It's all uncertainty piled on uncertainty; and having it repeated by an uncritical author in a book doesn't make it any better. Such material must not be (re)inserted into the article without solid proof. If a reliable scholarly source were to provide evidence that would be another matter, of course. Chiswick Chap (talk) 00:15, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Chiswick Chap, I thought that the original interview recorded by Costanzo Costantini was enough. If you think it's not good, I agree with the removal of that information. Cheers! – Βατο (talk) 00:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't; having Papas wonder in an interview about what her ancestry may probably have been is not reliable evidence. She actually makes it clear that she does not know, so repeating it in print doesn't make it any better. However, since people keep on raking up the same vague and unsubstantiated assertions, it'll probably be best to put them in a footnote with the sources, such as they are, so that everyone can see that even Papas had no usable evidence for the claim. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Page protection has recently been lifted, and I'm sorry to see that the same trouble has immediately broken out again. I've requested renewed protection. Meanwhile, could User:Alltan, User:Khirurg, User:Ahmet Q. and any others involved or interested please note that a) there is no consensus to make a change here - quite the reverse, the change has repeatedly been reverted by different editors, so it is simple edit-warring against a rather clear consensus; b) there is no reliable evidence of Albanian descent; c) Papas's remark about her ancestry is NOT evidence either, as it seems to have been an exasperated joke about the Albanian press's claims. In the absence of actual proof, the matter is basically WP:TABLOID press fluff, i.e. unreliable gossip, and we should not be including it in any article. On the content of the article, could editors note that Status quo ante (phrase)Status quo ante should be observed until this is resolved amicably here on the talk page, i.e. the article text should stay as it is unless and until consensus is reached to change it. In particular, removing notices from the article and adding flaky "sources" is not and never has been acceptable conduct. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, and thank you for your input. I completely agree. Unfortunately, the article is a magnet for POV-pushing, given the nature of the subject, so it needs to be watched carefully and sourced to a high standard. Khirurg (talk) 13:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes. If there is any more trouble, do request extended page protection (which should be permanent): the page has already gone through multiple periods of protection, and every time it stops, the trouble restarts. Go figure. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

It should also be noted that we have a biographical work co-authored by Papas; even though it includes information about her family and upbringing, there is no mention of an Albanian origin.

• Papas, Irene; Georgousopoulos, Kostas; Sakellarios, Alekos; Iliadis, Frixos; Maros, Basil; Cacoyannis, Michael (1997). Karakasis, Pantelis (ed.). Αφιέρωμα στην Ειρήνη Παπά (in Greek). Thessaloniki International Film Festival. ISBN 9780008657215.

Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

That Irene Papas had Albanian roots is just a hoax, unsupported by any evidence, spread by some Albanians. You did the right thing by removing it. Some Albanians tried to add that lie to several versions of Wikipedia, but they were all deleted by administrators. Only the Albanian version keeps mentioning that lie.--Vernel222 (talk) 19:15, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

IP Edits

I removed some IP edits which were unsourced. Ahmet Q. (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

You were quite correct in doing so. The IP was certainly correct in his assertion of humour in Papas's statement; shame we can't source it at the moment. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2022

Could you please add this obituary from the New York Times to the article :

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/14/obituaries/irene-papas-dead.html 194.69.14.132 (talk) 11:12, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Added. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Citations needed

The following claims have been made about Papas, but the source supporting them has been deemed unreliable (in general, not in this specific instance). If anyone can find suitable citations, these claims could be added back into the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

"Papas appeared on state in the Greek Popular Theatre in Athens in 1958, and in in Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee's Inherit the Wind."

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2022

Not a Greek Communist. She was a liberal. 71.105.239.79 (talk) 03:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The article says so. Nothing, therefore, to do here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Wrong person

This page mixes together (badly) in the filmography her [1] and the Australian Irini aka Irene Papas [2]. The former was not in 1994's Melvin, Son of Alvin, the later was in that film which was in 1984. Since this comes partly from the Mikrofwno source (currently number 7) it brings into question the reliability of that source. Melvin was IP introduced 2015 [3]. Source was published in 2018, did they get stuff (badly) from here or did they mess it up themselves, including Wong Boy for Wog Boy. Pinging User:Chiswick Chap who introduced it in 2018 [4]. Melvin was IP introduced 2015 [5]. duffbeerforme (talk) 08:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Melvin removed. The Mikrofwno source is not currently in the article, and nothing it may have supported relies upon it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)