Talk:Fettuccine Alfredo

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Untitled comment][edit]

I would like to add some important distinctions: in Italy "pasta al burro" is usually something home cooked and served when people is sick, using whatever pasta, long or short, you like and dressed with butter, typically melted. Pasta in bianco is pasta without any sauce, dressed only with butter or even just plain oil, typically olive oil. None of these two is prepared using pasta all'uovo but instead using just regular pasta. Pasta all'uovo is traditionally in the shape of fettuccine but fettuccine are NOT made only with eggs! Infact they're often used in recipes with fish, where nobody would ever dare to use pasta all'uovo! Pasta all'uovo is better served with creamy sauces and, indeed, at least in Northern Italy cream (panna da cucina) is found in any grocery store and used in many recipes. Therefore is very much possible that someone, may be even the original mr Alfredo, may have added some cream in the recipe, although I'd say this is not at all common in Italy. Last, I wholeheartedly disagree with the definition of comfort food: in Italy pasta al burro, or in bianco, is more something you serve to a sick person, in the assumption they couldn't retain and digest a proper sauce, than a comfort food. Which would, in case, be pasta served with "aglio, olio e peperoncino", i.e. garlic, oil and hot pepper flakes. Or, expecially in the Rome area, what is called "pasta al cacio", using caciocavallo cheese melted in some oil. Back to pasta al burro, I've never seen it prepared with pasta all'uovo, only with regular pasta. From the WP article it seems that the recipe, as served in the restaurant, was calling for pasta all'uovo: if so it would have been, in my opinion, an evolution from the original recipe, dictated to add to the richness of the dish. If that's the case, it would also be improper if not plainly incorrect to state that fettuccine Alfredo are, in Italy, pasta al burro: they are not, expecially considering how the Alfredo sauce has evolved in the US vs. the original dish of pasta al burro. In case it would be more correct to state that fettuccine Alfredo have evolved, in the US, from a recipe that in Italy is simply pasta al burro. Thanks Renato — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:400:A1E0:B581:4B19:3EF1:27A (talk) 09:17, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Untitled)[edit]

Parsley? I've never heard of it as an essential ingredient in Alfredo sauce. Anyone have proof? Kent Wang 21:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I always thought parsley was optional - AKeen 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

alla Carbonara[edit]

Just adding bacon does not make it "alla Carbonara" Eggs are an essential ingredient and many versions do not include cream. Calling "alla carbonara" alfredo sauce with bacon is wrong.

I completely agree. Also, it's important to inform people in this article that Alfredo is essentially American food, not Italian.72.78.154.193 (talk) 06:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lelio/Lello[edit]

Someone recently changed the inventor from Alfredo di Lelio to Alfredo di Lello. Both turn up hits on google - Anyone know the correct spelling? - AKeen 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

di Lelio is correct, I believe. At least it is spelled that way on the Alfredo's website. - Athos23 17:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
di Lelio is also the way it is spelled in the New York Times article referred to but not cited untiul I added it. I really do wish contributers would do their own research Mike Hayes (talk) 01:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recipe[edit]

The infredients are mentionned but that's it. How about a recipe and more importantly instructions on how to make the sauce?

How-to articles are not considered appropriate in Wikipedia. I have added a link to the Cookbook article. Mike Hayes (talk) 01:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alfredo Sauce[edit]

It is sheer, easily disproven fallacy to claim that there is no such thing as alfredo sauce, only fettuccine alfredo.

All you have to do is go to any grocery store. They sell the sauce.

You can put alfredo sauce on any noodle, 'though it doesn't work well with spaghetti-type noodles, needing more surface area. It does do well on, say, penne and other hollow noodles. But, at the very least, it works on linguine almost identically to fettuccine. The core article should be Alfredo (dish) or Alfredo (sauce), not Fettuccine Alfredo. I'm sure some chefs think it can ONLY be the latter, but that's just their narrow view. This isn't a science, where we only define according to some authority. If people and food distributors refer to the sauce separately, then it is separate. Kaz 17:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I guess you're right that we need to present "Alfredo sauce" on an equal footing with "fettuccine alfredo", since it was after all made famous in the US. On the other hand, I don't agree about injecting POV and advice to use a particular brand of butter (I like Plugra, but it only has 3% more fat, anyway). I am not sure what is meant by "using... Parmigiano Reggiano cheese instead of ... parmesan": I guess to use real Parmesan rather than US-made imitations? But the article already talks about the common substitution of imitations. As for "This creates a very rich sauce that might horrify fat-watchers, but thrills devout Italian food fanatics and low-carb dieters" -- this is pure editorializing, which isn't WP style, and neither is "an excessive amount" of cheese. --Macrakis 20:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I've thought a little about this, and I think you're right. We need to hold our noses and deal with reality regardless of how revolting it is. The fact is, as you say, most Americans have never tasted anything like the original fettuccine alfredo, and for them, the version that comes from a bottle with starch thickening and ersatz cheeses is fettuccine alfredo. The fact that Italians don't think of pasta dishes as composed of pasta plus a separate sauce is irrelevant; we need to deal with mass-market American food habits. The question is how to present the evolution from the original fettuccine alfredo, which was just di Lelio's fancy name for a rich fettuccine al burro prepared at table, to the current American dish. I suppose we should put in the context of American eating trends: mass-market chain faux-Italian restaurants (PappaRazzi's, Olive Garden, etc.); convenience foods (as though fettuccine al burro was hard to make from scratch!) made industrially with low-quality ingredients, and all that. To do this the WP way, we'll need to find good sources, though, not rely on our personal opinions. John Hess would no doubt have had a choice word or two.... Ideas? --Macrakis 21:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


At www.foonews.net , Filipo wrote ythe following:

"le fettuccine al burro...(doppio, triplo..)

sono piu' recenti e non fanno parte della tradizione romana, ma sono un piatto di un ristorante romano (alfredo). poi sono piu' famose perche'

venivano servite con una forchetta d'oro che per il piatto in se"

"Fetuccine al burro (double, triple ...)
is very recent and is not part of the Roman tradition, but is a dish from a Roman restaurant (Alfredo). It is famous because it was served with a gold fork ..."

Mike Hayes (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the redirect from Alfredo sauce is inappropriate. Alfredo sauce, as sold in the United States, is a distinct product. Fred Talk 18:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ingredients[edit]

The article heading mentions the sauce containing Parmesan cheese, butter, and heavy cream. Our current "history" section mentions adding more butter to the older recipe, but it does not mention how the cheese or cream were added to make Fettuccine Alfredo. This should be explained. Thomprod (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found a reference saying that Americans added the cream to the recipe, but the source is a blacklisted website. Thomprod (talk) 14:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Popularity[edit]

I'm italian and I added to the text the main caratteristic of this receipe: it's by far much more popular in USA than in his homeland Italy. Like for "Latte" and "spaghetti with meatballs" this food is considered in Italy "poor simple stuff" you make at home and you hardly find them in restaurants or cafè. Alfredo himself have prepared this first for his sick wife at home. Anyway in Italy it is usually not known as "Pasta Alfredo" but like a variant of "Pasta al burro"/"Pasta in bianco" (means respectively "Pasta with butter" and "Pasta in White") these are usually prepared with less butter than the Alfredo one and rarely with cream (in my experience all american versions of italian receipes have more cream than the italian ones). Corrado PS Put bacon in "Alfredo sauce" and call it "Pasta alla carbonara" it is not only wrong, I guess you could be arrested in Italy!!!:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.145.139.13 (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone correct my correction this way: In Italy, though fettuccine al burro is widely known, the name 'alfredo' and the American variants with chicken, vegetables, and so on are unknown. The last part of the sentences is absolutely wrong! All pasta in north of Italy (let's say from Emilia Romagna to alps) is with butter. If the sentences was true in North Italy we do not know any pasta with vegetables? And, anyway, Fettucine Alfredo is a variation of the Fettucine al burro it is not exctly the same stuff. The quantity of butter is different. Therefore I make a correction to the sentences. If somebody does not agree and could make it better ok but please be polite explain how and why.Do not put wrong sentences without citation. Corrado —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.145.139.13 (talk) 17:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Just to explain better: no Italian would ever spend money for a meal in a restaurant to eat simply boiled pasta with a chunk of butter and a bit of grated Parmigiano tossed on it. That's something anyone would cook for themselves coming home after an hard day at word and without the energy or time to do anything more complex.
Apart from that, I'm sure that most Romans finding themselves in that situation, would rather prepare and eat agio, olio e peperoncino. Butter is used mostly in the North.--Dia^ (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is international cooking, not Italian[edit]

This dish simply does not exist in Italy, it might be a personal invention of a local restaurant in Rome, but you can find this stuff all arond the wrorld apart Italy. This is reallt odd! Ask all italians you meet on the road and for "fettucini alfredo" (gosh, 108.000 hits on google!) they will look at you like an alien. I am Italian and I knew about the existence of this dish traveling in Germany. Kind regards --57.90.36.29 (talk) 11:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC) The article should reflect the fact that not a single italian who hasn't been abroad knows of the existence of this dish and that it is not part of italian tradition.[reply]

I absolutely agree. I'm Italian and I first heard of "Fettuccine Alfredo" travelling to the USA. It is definitely not a typical Italian dish, not even in Rome. --TheLoneTraveller (talk) 18:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree: Fettuccine Alfredo is not a tipical italian dish, it could probably be a "name substitution" usually done in italian restaurants... The fact that "fettuccine alfredo" is not present in italian version of Wikipedia should be relevant to highlight this fact... It is a US creation, not italian.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.236.47.196 (talk) 10:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. As the article says, the dish is nothing more than Fettuccine al burro e parmigiano, a staple food, at least in Rome. If there is something that is not Italian, is the name. The dish is not present in the Italian Wikipedia because it is too simple to deserve an article. moreover, I don`t agree on the categorization in the Italian-American cuisine. It is an Italian dish, its origin is well documented (it is present on some among the most important books about roman cuisine) and the fact that it is immensely popular in the States is not enough to make of it an Italian-American dish. I think that an Italian-American dish can be defined as a dish that has been created by the Italian community in the US or has evolved from an Italian one. Alex2006 (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm Italian and know very well italian food, this name is a clear misnomer used only outside Italy for a very common dish. I tried to specify this in the main article but got reverted and this feels like a wrong doing. It must be clear on wikipedia that maybe an italian knows better about Italy than an American. Why is it not possible to clear this FACT: "This name is NEVER used in Italy and every italian who hears it ridicules it"? Whoever had the courage to undo this truth should come here to Rome (Italy) and check. This is the end of Wikipedia, where an ignorant mass of people believe to know better than a well-informed minority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.205.216.49 (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dear ip, the fact that you "are Italian and knows very well Italian food" means nothing. Wikipedia works with reliable sources, and the sources (among them, Luigi Carnacina and Vincenzo Buonassisi: as Italian I am sure that you know both of them) describes well the history of the dish in Rome . Moreover, reading what you wrote above, I don't understand yet what is you find not ok. Could you explain better what is wrong in the article? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"A" in "Alfredo" should be capitalized[edit]

I moved the page from "Fettuccine alfredo" to "Fettuccine Alfredo" as the "A" is always capitalized (cf. wikt:fettuccine Alfredo, etc.). --MZMcBride (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes section[edit]

Hi. I removed the "Quotes" section from the article in this edit:

Quotes

"Fettucini alfredo is macaroni and cheese for adults." - Mitch Hedberg

This content probably belongs at Wikiquote or somewhere like that. It doesn't belong in this article unless the quote is particularly notable. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I thought it was a great explanation to the hoi polloi of defining the dish and providing a smile to the in crowd; but I'll accept your decision. Thank you very much for your courtesy of notifying me.Foofbun (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fettuccine and cream in Rome[edit]

I recently came across an interesting passage in an Italian book which confirms that fettuccine all'uovo were served with "burro e crema di latta" in Rome (among many other styles): 'frasi', Ristoranti a Roma, A.B.E.T.E. 1967, p. 52. The cheese seems to be taken for granted. --Macrakis (talk) 22:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Inconsistent with Italian Wikipedia[edit]

This article is total nonsense in trying to attribute this dish to Italy, or even the city of Rome. At that, mentioning old fashioned American movie stars Pickford and Fairbanks is an interesting anecdotal story for American interests and possibly explains how this recipe took to popularity here in the United States, but it in no way makes for an adequate explanation of how this should be attributed to Rome or Italy itself, especially when most Italians themselves don't even identify with the dish, or even recognize it whatsoever, and that this attribution would have originated ages ago in what's rather irrelevant to Italian culture and history. Heck, even many Italian-Americans can fathom that this is the silliest attribution and that Alfredo Sauce is nothing more than a bechamel sauce with likes of imitation Kraft parmesan cheese added into it rather than a French cheese in Mornay-style sauce. A proper Italian "pasta al burro" has no bechamel, and no cream or flour. It's just "burro fuso" (or emulsified butter) with "real" grated Parmigiano Reggiano. And it's typically served to children, or persons who are seeking comfort food when sick. Most Italians would scoff at the idea of Alfredo sauce on pasta, aside from requesting "pasta al burro" at a formal dinner table with adults.

All one needs do is take a look a the Italian Wikipedia translation which reads: "Alfredo fettuccine have become a widespread dish in Italian American restaurants in the United States and a symbol of "Italianness" [8] ; the recipe, however, is not that of the Roman restaurant of Alfredo Di Lelio, but a variant that involves the use of cream (instead of the creamy butter originally intended) [5] and other ingredients, such as chicken breast, that little or nothing they have to do with the original.

The fettuccine Alfredo are practically the same thing as butter and cheese or butter and Parmesan pasta, one of the oldest and most simple ways to season pasta. This recipe, known in Italy as "white pasta", with oil instead of butter, a little garlic and pepper, is consumed at home, especially when there are small children [9]. Despite the Italian origins, the name "fettuccine Alfredo" is practically unknown in Italy [10], usually this type of pasta is reported almost exclusively in the menus of tourist restaurants." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.202.143.106 (talk) 10:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

this isn't an italian dish at all[edit]

this dish only exists in the USA, it was created in New York, it is not available in ANY italian restaurant anywhere in europe, let alone italy

and, more important, it goes against the whole idea of italian food, italians don't put cream in their pasta !

im editing the first line of this article, find a restaurant any restaurant in italy that serves this disgusting dish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martijn Scheffer (talk • contribs) 21:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with you....there is no Fettuccine Alfredo Dish in Europe/Italy its American like Spaghetti and Meatballs,been to Italy and people never heart of Fettuccine Alfredo before...its just marketing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.199.228.211 (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC) Yes you're right. It is 100% not Italian. --79.19.219.156 (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the article and try to understand what is written in it. Alex2006 (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not interested in some kind of American propaganda/ignorance or such. Just write it is Italian-American. If you ask for this dish in an Italian restaurant in Italy no one even knows what it is... --79.19.219.156 (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not true: you can ask in Via della Scrofa or in Piazza Augusto Imperatore in Rome, and they will know it all too well. And being a variation of fettuccine al burro (as the article says), in Italy it is prepared everywhere. And since "origin" of a dish denotes where the dish was attested for the first time, origin of Fettuccine Alfredo is Italy. Alex2006 (talk) 06:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok we have a couple (yet only 2!) touristy restaurants who do it. Otherwise it is called everywhere "pasta al burro", so at least the name should be changed if we want to insert it in the "Italian cuisine" template. Its origins may be in Italy, but now it is an Italian-American dish, especially as in the US there are dozens of variations with nothing in common with the original pasta al burro recipe.--82.55.136.167 (talk) 10:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They are not two touristy (?) restaurants, but two tradition restaurants (one 110 years old, the other 70) competing for the invention of the dish: and both also have faithful roman customers that go there to eat pasta all'alfredo. The dish was born in Rome, there is no discussion about this in both Italian and American sources, and pasta al burro was first attested in Italy, therefore it is an Italian dish. About the diffusion, again, it is not a dish of Italian American cuisine (like pizza, another dish born in Italy but now an integral part of American culinary culture), but of American cuisine, Italian Americans have nothing to do with its diffusion.
The only thing worth discussing is the name change in the template: this would make sense, but since pasta al burro in America is known as pasta alfredo (and on Wikipedia we only have one article for both denominations), because of WP:COMMONNAME the name of the dish on the wiki:en Template must remain pasta alfredo, even if for an Italian (I am Italian - roman - too) this sounds strange (but not stranger than "I would like to buy a cannoli" :-)). Alex2006 (talk) 11:48, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Alessandro57: look at this edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fettuccine_Alfredo&diff=prev&oldid=1219144501. JacktheBrown (talk) 02:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://genius.com/Captainsparklez-revenge-lyrics. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, provided it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 20:26, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro aren't the same dish[edit]

From Italian to read that the fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro are the same thing is bad. "Fettuccine Alfredo" originated in Italy, but over time the Americans have Americanised it by adding random ingredients (e.g. chicken), ignoring the right combinations of flavours (for people with a food culture, chicken on pasta isn't a respectable combination), as unfortunately they still do very often, and now there is no longer an Italian dish called "fettuccine Alfredo" (except for only two Italian restaurants that still prepare it). In Italy we have a pasta dish called "pasta al burro", but it isn't the same as "fettuccine Alfredo"; they're two different dishes, although a bit similar. I propose deleting the "or fettuccine al burro" phrase (in the second line). JacktheBrown (talk) 22:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dishes have variations and can evolve but still have the same name. To say you can't add chicken to a pasta dish is the worst kind of pedantry – it's one of my favorites whether it's common in Italy or not! This kind of food purism often has little basis in history and I'd suggest reading [1]. Perhaps the intro could be worded differently to indicate that the names don't proscribe just a single universal recipe but there's no need to excise this nomenclature, and the article should describe them together with a description of how they are served. Fettuccine al burro redirects here since it's a legitimate name, and covering close concepts in a single article as such is the most appropriate. It's still an Italian dish, even if "Alfredo" is less used there and Americans often add cream. Reywas92Talk 01:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Reywas92: I said that, for people with a food culture, it isn't a respectable combination; I don't want to list the reasons here (if you like eating it, I'm happy for you). The Americans have their strengths, such as cinema, just as we have ours, such as cuisine, so if we Italians say that, for people with a food culture, it isn't a respectable combination, we're very reliable. Anyway, let's go back to the original topic, which isn't that. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JackkBrown, you have been an editor long enough to know quite well that your personal opinion is utterly irrelevant on Wikipedia and that a statement like we Italians say it's an objectively wrong combination, we're very, very reliable constitutes Original research which is forbidden on Wikipedia. Who appointed you the spokesperson for "we Italians"? Hundreds of millions of people worldwide frequently eat chicken and pasta dishes without being poisoned or vomiting, so your objectivity in this matter is in question. All that matters is what reliable sources say, not what anonymous Wikipedia editors say. You know this. Cullen328 (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article describes the closely related fettuccine al burro and fettucine Alfredo, both invented in and still served in Italy. It is objectively correct to say it's Italian cuisine, and then we can say the heavier recipe with cream is an American variant. Just because your nonna makes it a certain way doesn't mean this can't say how these recipes are related. Reywas92Talk 02:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point is: nobody (or their nonna) makes "Fettuccine Alfredo" in Italy. It really doesn't exit outside of the restaurants that sell this supposed Italian "dish" to tourists (see Gambero Rosso article here). A savvy waiter may offer it up if asked, and at least one Roman restaurant offers "Fettuccine Alfredo" variants with truffles and/or caviar, but that's about as far as it goes. Elsewhere, it is just what you feed to children and convalescents, and it is not referred to as "Alfredo" anything. (Also, in my view, an Italian editor sharing local knowledge on an article's Talk page does not seem like a violation of WP:OR policy. Whist we can all probably agree that simply saying: "I'm Italian" doesn't necessarily make someone an expert, the project as a whole does does benefit greatly from local knowledge.) -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cl3phact0: exactly. As an Italian I cannot express my culinary knowledge, because I risk, as has already happened here, being labeled, without any respect for myself or for any other Italian, as "original research"; it's clear that I, as an Italian (and as a very important contributor to the encyclopedia of topics concerning Italian cuisine), know much more about the cuisine of my country than an American. Since when did Wikipedia become a place where only Americans can speak?. Wikipedia isn't the Nazi Germany, Wikipedia is a MAGNIFICENT place; let's try not to ruin this very beautiful environment. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JackkBrown, you are not a reliable source just as I am not a reliable source. The role of Wikipedia editors and the purpose of Wikipedia talk pages is to identify, evaluate and summarize what reliable sources say about a topic. Literally nobody said or implied that only Americans can speak here. But you need to follow policies and guidelines just like every other editor. Cullen328 (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cullen328: if we're all on the same level in this encyclopaedia, I'm happy. Thank you for your comment. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another related observation about the content and accuracy of this article[edit]

Our article reads: in Italy this dish is usually called simply "fettuccine al burro", although outside of Rome, "fettuccine" is called "tagliatelle" (Italian wikipedia redirects from the former to the latter). Also, in Italy, the "dish" itself – in so much as there is such a thing beyond the restaurant that makes it – would likely be called "pasta in bianco" or "pasta al burro e parmigiano" (as it would likely be made with pretty much any pasta that's laying about in the pantry, not specifically "fettuccine"). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Help desk too. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PPS: The folks who have one of the Roman restaurants that sells this "dish" have opened a branch in Saudi Arabia. [NB: One has to wonder if the whole story is a clever marketing ploy (cooked up by the nonno, with a wink and a grin, way back in the day).] -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tell the tens of thousands of Italian-American restaurants who sell this dish and the hundreds of millions of Americans who eat this dish and have for 100 years that the whole thing is a clever marketing ploy cooked up when their great-grandparents were young and gullible, Cl3phact0. While you are at it, examine the pasta sauce section of thousands of American supermarkets. Arguing against a century of reality as reflected by countless reliable sources is not a good strategy. Cullen328 (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but personally I don't understand the eternal discussions about this dish. Fettuccine all'Alfredo (or "al triplo burro": so it is mentioned by Carnacina) was born in Italy as a local variation of Fettuccine al burro, which is a typical home cooking dish. Then it was adopted in the states, where it changed again, and got an enormous popularity. Its origin is well attested, its later developments too, where is the problem? Alex2006 (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem (except that we may inadvertently be propagating a myth invented by nonno "the King of the noodles" Alfredo), though it seems that this subject is something of a gastro-cultural third rail (oddly). Perhaps we could paraphrase the title of the Gambero Rosso article mentioned above (The strange case of Fettuccine Alfredo, an almost unknown dish in Italy that's famous in America) and use it as a title for this article. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where would the myth be? Alex2006 (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any such alteration of the article title would be a serious violation of the Neutral point of view, which is a core content policy. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cullen328: It was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment (in order to underscore the core point about "Fettuccine Alfredo" not really being an Italian thing – do read the article if you have time). Fear not, I would never attempt to rename an article (especially one of such grave import and potentially contentious nature) without clear community consensus! Sorry if any confusion. All's well. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Myth No. 1 would be: that Italians (apart from those who are in some way involved with or knowledgeable about the two or three Roman restaurants that serve this dish, or perhaps those who have read about or otherwise discovered the Italo-American dish by this name) have any idea what "Fettuccine Alfredo" is;
It's also possible (though much harder to prove or disprove) our Myth No. 2 is: that nonno Alfredo's version of this history is in fact true (rather than a good-natured, tongue-in-cheek story that proved to be highly profitable, and which eventually took on a culturally significant life of its own – as is my suspicion).
[NB: Being of a sceptical nature, and reading in one of our sources that the "famous" gold cutlery was melted down to support Mussolini's war effort – and yet, lo and behold, there it is on display in the restaurant did tweak my bs meter.]
In any case, I've tried to wikify the syntax a bit (and strengthen the article's sources) to reflect some of what I understand to be the concerns initially raised above and elsewhere by JackkBrown. Please let me know if we're moving in the right direction to help establish truly NPOV here (there's room for improvement still, in my view). Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cl3phact0, what is your reliable source for Myth 1? Americans who know anything about cuisines all know that Italian-American cuisine differs from Italian cuisine, just as Chinese-American cuisine differs from Chinese cuisine, and Mexican-American cuisine differs from Mexican cuisine. As for Myth 2, the origin stories of many culinary dishes worldwide are often based on legends and lore, and there are often rival contenders for original creator. Consider an article that I wrote, Florentine (culinary term). The common origin story has been debunked but it is still worthy of mention in the article without saying in Wikipedia's voice that it is true. Helpful would be a reliable source that debunks the Fettucine Alfredo origin story. Cullen328 (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Myth No. 1, the Gambero Rosso is pretty authoritative (in Italy anyhow). If they say it's "almost unknown" (Italian: quasi sconosciuto) in Italy, I'd give that high-marks for reliability. The WineAndFoodTour.it! site is probably less authoritative (and may or may not be WP:RS), but again, we have an Italian foodie source that states unequivocally "to be honest almost no Italian knows it" (Italian: anche se a dirla tutta quasi nessuno italiano lo conosce). We also have the title of Maurizio Pelli's book: Fettuccine Alfredo, Spaghetti Bolognaise & Caesar Salad; The Triumph of the World's False Italian Cuisine (to which I do not have access, but we have it in our "Bibliography" section).
[NB: I made no mention of "Americans" per se. Perhaps I implied that this is primarily an American dish (which I would say it is) by referring to it as "Italo-American", so I'm not sure what your point is when you say Americans who know anything about cuisines all know.]
PS: Cullen328, here is another pretty solid source for the claim that this is essentially an Italo-American dish – this one from the Corriere della Sera, a highly reputable national newspaper (and also in Italian, I'm afraid). The claim is that the two competing Roman restaurants ("Scrofa" and "Vero" for short) are "almost the only ones to offer [Fettuccine Alfredo] in Italy" (Italian: gli unici quasi a proporla in Italia). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cl3phact0: YES, I'm Italian and, literally, Italians who don't know Italian-American cuisine don't know this dish; only two restaurants in the whole of Italy offer fettuccine Alfredo. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Myth No. 2, again difficult to prove or disprove. There is an enormous amount of recycling of our article in the more recent sources, and the older sources are a lot more vague about some of the salient details (e.g., name of dish, golden cutlery, etc.). We're stating these things as facts. They may be myths or apocrypha.
For what it's worth, I do find the fact that we repeat the "origin" story three times, mention Di Lelio(s) a dozen or more times, and evoke the Pickford/Fairbanks story a few times (and that we also have a stand alone article about at least one of the restaurants) to be somewhat promotional in nature – all things considered.
Nice Florentine article. Who knew. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cl3phact0: exactly. If we consider Gambero Rosso unreliable, then we must also consider American Cookery not authoritative, because, as Cullen328 implicitly wrote in response to a comment of mine, in this encyclopaedia we are all on the same level, so an authoritative American cookbook cannot be worth more than an authoritative Italian cookbook. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Piano sano e lontano. If you, Cullen328, et al. are in agreement with the direction we're heading, I'd be happy to continue re-working the article per above comments to see where we land. Neutral about anything else. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cl3phact0:, thanks to your answer. Now,

  • about myth1: in Italy fettuccine Alfredo is known only as an italo-american dish, and the reason is that it is a dish invented in a Roman restaurant (now it is served in two, because di Lelio gave up his own restaurant with the recipe but then changed his mind and reopened another in the same neighborhood) and the recipe is secret. No one really knows how they are prepared, and being a variation of burro e parmigiano, people continued to cook plain burro e parmigiano. And no, Gambero rosso (like la Cucina italiana) is not really a trustworthy source anymore. They are two victims of the social media.
  • about myth2 (the golden forks): this is not a myth, because the thing is attested by several trustworthy sources, including Luigi Carnacina (1888-1981), who was roman and one of the most important Italian gastronomes of the twentieth century. In his book Roma in cucina (Ed. Giunti, 1975, p. 72), after hazarding a recipe for the dish ("Fettuccine al triplo burro"), he writes: "Il bravo Alfredo, purtoppo scomparso, sapeva servirle con la sua divertente e stuzzicante coreografia, munito di grandi e sontuose posate d'oro, che spiccavano sul colore candido del burro". So this is not a legend.

Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Alessandro57.
What concerns me about the golden cutlery – a spoon and a fork, to be precise (which are really only props in a potentially fabricated or highly embellished story that we're calling Myth No. 2) is not their existence or the claim that nonno Alfredo occasionally used them to stir the pasta; it is their origin and the inscription. A native English speaker would not write "the King of the noodles" (emphasis is mine), but rather "the King of noodles". (Interestingly, according to our Douglas Fairbanks article, he was know as "The King of Hollywood".) One has to wonder, though as Myth No. 2 is speculative, it will remain here on the Talk page until solid sourcing is found (unlikely).
Re: Myth No. 1, can we agree that the dish called "Fettuccine Alfredo" is essentially Italian-American (notwithstanding the existence of Italian versions called "fettuccine al burro", "pasta al burro e parmigiano", "pasta in bianco", etc.)?
Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Myth 1 as I interpreted it is that Americans widely think that Fettuccine Alfredo is just as popular in Italy as it is in the United States. I see no evidence for that claim. Only a very small percentage of Americans have visited Italy and the vast majority of Americans spend essentially zero time thinking about how often or infrequently Italians eat various dishes in Italy. As for Myth 2, that can be dealt with by attributing the origin story to the marketing statements of the Rome restaurant owners rather than stating any of that in Wikipedia's voice. What I object to is any sort of framing that Italian cuisine is superior to Italian-American cuisine in Wikipedia's voice. That is a violation of the neutral point of view. I also want to make clear that Italian-American restaurants, in my many decades of experience eating in them, do not promote or even mention the golden cutlery/Douglas Fairbanks/Mary Pickford story. That all goes back 100 or more years ago, and the younger generation are barely aware of these big stars of the silent film era. Of the countless Italian-American restaurants I've eaten at, many do not even offer the dish, and of those that do, it is just another item on the menu, without any promotional gimmicks. Also, it is not routinely offered with chicken. Some grilled chicken breast is often offered as an add-on for an extra price. The emphasis on Olive Garden is a bit misleading. Yes, they emphasize Alfredo dishes, but there are as many as 100,000 Italian-American restaurants in the US, and only 900 are Olive Gardens. With the exception of chain pizzerias, most Italian-American restaurants are independent local family owned businesses. The "In American culture" section is especially weak because it focuses heavily on the Italian origins and things that various people said 100 years ago. I venture to guess that 99.99% of Americans are entirely unaware that the Roman dish was mentioned fleetingly in Babbitt, a novel which was published over 100 years ago, and whose premise has been undermined by profound changes in American society in the past 70 years. The first reference in the section is by Forbes contributor John Mariani, who argues vigorously in favor of the original Roman recipe, but that is not at all reflective of the dish in contemporary American culture, and per WP:FORBESCON, there is strong consensus that articles by Forbes contributors are not reliable sources. In conclusion, the article spends far too much time describing the Roman origins and the celebrity gossip of 100 years ago, and far less time describing the dish as it is actually eaten and enjoyed by tens of millions of contemporary Americans. Cullen328 (talk) 18:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fettuccine_Alfredo&oldid=1219768499"