Talk:List of birds of New Zealand

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Untitled[edit]

Common names[edit]

The Gulls list illustrates the problem of indexing links by common name. In NZ what we call the Black backed gull is called the Kelp Gull elsewhere. The common name `Kelp Gull' is simply not used in NZ - even in the scientific literature. Similarly what we call red-billed gulls are called silver gulls in other places with the name red-billed gull being applied to a different species entirely. The common names of gulls are a bit of a mess.

Suggested policies (edit to change)[edit]

  • native birds only (subject to discussion - what is native?)
  • Maori name first for those who want to use this page to look up the Maori names. (This is a New Zealand page first, and a biology page second.)
  • Include extinct birds, but only those which have become extinct since the arrival of humans (for example the South Island kokako and the moa). We don't want to be delving into the dinosaur fossil record!
  • Subspecies to be indicated by indentation
  • Biological classification in italics.
  • Extinct/critical/endangered etc in bold and coloured. How about
  • Vulnerable
  • Threatened
  • Endangered
  • Critical
  • Extinct

Format[edit]

Common Name (Alternate Common Name, Another Common Name), Scientific name - occurrence status; conservation status

e.g.

    • Chatham Robin (Black Robin), Petroica traversi - endemic; endangered

Occurrence status and conservation status to use a set thesarus of terms.

I'm suggesting, and experimenting, with the format above to try to get something easily-readable and consistent. See Pihoihoi to Popokotea in the article for a sample block. I'm really not sure about the colours for conservation status - seems a bit over the top - like an amateurish web page :-) Will come back for another look later. Nurg 09:38, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Discussion:[edit]

I like the idea of this page. Just a couple of comments. There is a litlle bit of inconsistency in some of the Maori/English pairings. For example, Caspian Tern links to Tern, but conversely fantail links to Grey Fantail.
True. I thought it better to provide a link wherever I could find an existing page with useful information. In the case of the fantail there is a page for the species. In the Caspian Tern case there is no specific existing page, but the general Tern page has enough useful information to make it worth linking to.
Gannet I assume is Australian Gannet. As you indicate, what is native needs a bit of thought. Do you mean breeding species? Obviously doesn't refer to endemics, since Caspian Tern has an almost world-wide distribution. Hope you view this as constructive, jimfbleak 06:41 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes - although we don't call them AUSTRALIAN gannets in New Zealand ;-).
Hi Hawthorn! It's great to see another contributor to the bird entries - and, what's more, a proper Southern Hemisphere type, not one of those backwards-bathwater people. I think your self-imposed guidelines above are excellent. The "native birds only" thing is, as Jim says, going to be difficult, particularly in the case of recent self-introductions. I think the Silvereye is one of those (but I'd have to check).
Hmmm - I thought they'd been here quite a while. Must check.
The meaning of "native" isn't a problem. It is usually taken (in its broader sense used here) to include self-introduced. Non-native are those introduced by humans. But there is the question of why only native birds. Introduced birds are now birds of NZ too. Perhaps all NZ birds should be included with information on whether they are endemic, indigenous/native (in the narrower sense of breeding in other countries too), migrant, vagrant, introduced. And, yes, the Silvereye self-introduced about 200 years ago - before the welcome swallow but after the pukeko and harrier. Nurg 11:55, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
NZ page first, biology second. Yes. A good move. My intention is to do something rather similar over on this side of the Tasman with Australian birds when I get around to it one day - after all, we have Australasian birds to do the more formal, biological side of things, and that makes a great deal more sense as so many species are trans-Tasman.
Extinct post-human setlement birds? Absolutely! I aim to do the same with the Australian species (mostly mammals) that were wiped out by humans eventually.
Conservation status. Yes. This is a red-letter item for me. I would really like to develop a Wikipedia-wide system for this, probably with some kind of colour-coding - maybe something like this:
  • Secure
  • Lower Risk
  • Endangered
  • Critically Endangered
  • Extinct
I like this idea - will implement the colour thing next time around. Do you know if there are generally accepted precise definitions for what is what. I find that some sources may list a bird as endangered while others call it threatened or critical. It would be nice to have a standard.
and links to an appropriate page with sets out the official categories and defines them. I talked to Anthere about this a while back, we both thought it was a good idea but neither of us has done anything about it yet. Maybe I'd have done something concrete already but I haven't been able to think of a way to do it neatly - maybe some kind of extension to the taxoboxes?
Great idea
I'll slip in and do some more species accounts from time to time. Right now I'm mostly doing mammals. By the way, you'll find a lot of handy links and resources at WikiProject Birds, including a complete and up-to-date species list for NZ, Oz & Antarctica prepared jointly by the Oz and NZ birding bodies. It's very handy for intimidating Jim with when he comes over all Euro-centric on us.
I've wondered if it might not be a useful thing one day to route all the species links by species name. A given species may be referred to be many common names in different parts of the world. To make matters worse, the same common name may be used in different places to refer to different species. For these reasons linking by common name is a bit of a mess.

Moa[edit]

It has recently been discovered that what were thought to be different species of Moa was infact their sexual dimorphism. Crusadeonilliteracy 21:30, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unlabeled conservation status[edit]

Conservation status: Readers will assume that not-labeled means "safe", but several of the unlabeled species are not (particularly Kakapo), so the overall impression is misleading as it stands. Pm67nz 12:15, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

July 2004 copy of discussion from Tree of Life wikiproject[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#List_of_New_Zealand_birds

This seems to contravene several principles of ToL articles

  • it is alphabetical, not taxonomic
  • listing is a mixture of Maori and English, this is English wikipedia, so listing should give English name with Maori alternative (or without -see history of list of Korean birds)
  • many links are incorrect

Any views - I'm reluctant to run amok on this page myself since I don't know the region. jimfbleak 17:54, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've a couple suggestions. In order:

  • Leave it for a little bit. You've listed it on ToLCleanup. Give that a chance to catch someone's eye.
  • Find the authors of some of the birds on the list and see if they can take a whack at it.
  • Run amok. :)

- UtherSRG 01:36, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm .... my 2c worth.

  • Order: yes, taxonomic is probably best, though I'm not too fussed about it.
  • Maori names. I don't think we should force the people of a region to use English names where there is a substantial tradition of using local names. I think the standard names need to be listed as alternatives, but I'm perfectly comfortable with the use of local (in this case Maori) names as well. The actual linked-to articles, of course, must use the proper names, and common sense dictates that we create appropriate redirects from Maori (and other) names. Also, we should remember that many of the proper names are Maori names: kiwi, Kea, Kapapoo, and so on. English has already taken on a substantial number of Maori words, and wil take more on as time goes by. Our overall aim should be to create an article that is usable by all: New Zealanders first, but all other English speakers as well.
  • Wrong links? Err .. I can't find them. I went through List of NZB maybe 6 or 12 months back and sorted out the links, but it's grown a bit since then. Still, a half dozen random clicks didn't thrw up any obvious errors. Can you list the problem ones, Uther? (Or just go ahead and fix them.)

Tannin 02:10, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Not me. I was just giving my input to Jim's query. - UtherSRG

Yeah, I realised that just after I pressed "Save page". For "Uther", read "Jim". Tannin
  • Takapu (Gannet) Sula serrator - I'll go back to this and fix
  • Taranui (Caspian Tern) - I've fixed this
  • Tarapiroe (Black-fronted Tern)

Richard's Pipit although linked correctly, is not shown by the name by which it is known everywhere except presumably NZ. I'm not going to make a big thing of this, it's not even my hemisphere, but I thought I should flag it up. I did think of replacing it with the ITIS listing, but the editing is too difficult for a European. Jim

OK Jim. I started sorting the list. I've left it in worse state than it was when I started, but I think I've made enough of a start that if we chip away at it, we can finish the job before too long. BTW, in working on it, I started to see more examles of the things that you were taking about above. I fixed a few of them, lots more to go. Cheers, Tannin 11:02, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(Futher discussion moved to Talk:Richard's_Pipit.)

Number of extinct species[edit]

The following text was amended in the article as the count of 49 species does not (now) match the list. Perhaps subspecies were counted too?

"The 49 species marked extinct became extinct subsequent to humans' arrival in New Zealand. Of these, 34 extinctions occurred after the arrival of Maori but before the arrival of Pakeha with 15 further extinctions since." Nurg 05:42, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Incomplete?[edit]

There seem to be quite a few omissions here - should there be some mention that the list is incomplete? For example the blackbird, kingfisher and rock pigeon (in some urban areas) are not mentioned here. Richard001 11:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest you just add them, and that comment. Also, the Spotted Dove is another I can think of. Kahuroa 19:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are a number of ommissions - diving petrels and storm petrels. I am working on a new version of this page here. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
the list is very incomplete! Look at Checklist of the Birds of New Zealand (2010) --Esculapio (talk) 18:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List that may be useful[edit]

This was removed from New Zealand birds before I merged other info into Birds of New Zealand.

Native non endemic birds==
Introduced birds==
Colonising birds==
Extinct birds==

(end of pasted text). – Alan Liefting (talk) - 04:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Golden Eagle[edit]

I cannot find any (Google) reference to wild Golden Eagles (Falconidae) in NZ, and I feel fairly sure I would have heard of them, but the absence of evidence doesn't necessarily negate the inclusion. Could someone with more knowledge (or a braver heart) confirm or deny the claim? L-Bit (talk) 07:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert, but they're not included in my "Reader's Digest Complete Book of New Zealand Birds", 1985 ISBN 0-949819-62-X. It was added to this article on 8 August 2011 by an anon, who also added it to List of birds of Australia, New Zealand and Antarctica. I'm inclined to remove it from both articles as test edits.-gadfium 22:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the absence of any other input, I've removed this species from both articles.-gadfium 03:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Area covered[edit]

Should this list cover the nation state of New Zealand including the Chatham Islands, Auckland Islands, Kermadec Islands, etc. or it should it be restricted to the North Island, South Island, Stewart Island and other inshore islands.(talk) Quetzal1964 19:53, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • It should absolutely cover the birds of the offshore islands as well as the main islands. They are essentially a single superarchipelago, a biogeographical whole. New Zealand endemics are shared across the islands (example Tui are NZ endemics found from the Kermadecs to the Chathams and Auckland Islands). They are one, biogeogrpahically and politically. It is not an analogous situation to including the British Virgin Islands in the British list. A really strong argument would need to be made to restrict the list to just the mainland. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:55, 9 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sabine's Sunbird....I like the format you've taken with New Zealand and don't mind replacing it with my update when you are done.....No list boundary is ever perfect. The general problem is outlying islands of any nation. At what point does the list not reflect someone's expectation of what to see. For example, the Shetlands, Isle of Man, Outer Hebrides, Orkney, etc. make sense to include on the Great Britain/Scotland list. Species there are similar to what you can expect on the mainland. I also agree the British Virgin Islands should not be included on the British List because the species are so different. Hawaii is so biographically different than the mainland of the US. But then you have a number of islands in between. The Galapagos are mostly different than Ecuador. The Azores are somewhat different than mainland Portugal, as are the Canary Islands to Spain. The old New Zealand list have some of the Antarctic penguins breeding or common on the subantarctic islands, but are vagrants to the "main body" of the North, South, and Stewart Islands. Some of the subantarctic penguins have not been recorded on the main islands, but have been as vagrants on the subantarctic ones. Your list goes a long way to help sort that out. A suggestion, I'd add Stewart Island to your list as a separate island group.....And perhaps your format would work with Australia (Lord Howe, Norfolk, Macquarie, Heard & McDonald, Christmas as well as Indonesia, etc. as well in the long term? OSNZ is the standard I used...Pvmoutside (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You should follow the established convention, which in the case of New Zealand is to treat the islands as part of New Zealand proper. They are not a separate territory. All treatments of "the birds of New Zealand" include them as part of New Zealand. Including Antarctic penguins in the list is not a bug, it reflects the wide geographic range of the archipelago. New Zealand spreads from the subtropical to the subantractic.
Moreover, with regards to some of the Antarctic penguins breeding or common on the subantarctic islands, but are vagrants to the "main body" of the North, South, and Stewart Islands. Some of the subantarctic penguins have not been recorded on the main islands, but have been as vagrants on the subantarctic ones. I don't see the problem. Some Asian vagrants that turn up in Alaska are never going to turn up in the 48 continuous states. Some Alaskan breeders are just occasional vagrants to the 48. All are birds of America. Similarly, that's no reason to strip them from the List of New Zealand birds list. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:54, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I like Sabine's Sunbird's solution, it gives a lot more information than a simple list would and covers the biogeographical area.(talk) Quetzal1964 13:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From a discussion I've had with Sabine's Sunbird, and after already getting his permission, I'll gradually move his table formatted species list from his sandbox and replace it giving him proper attribution. I've added Stewart Island to the island mix because leaving it out I believe leaves a gap. I've carried over the Kiwis first. Let me know what you think and if there are any concerns....Pvmoutside (talk) 22:57, 12 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Māori names are given first" - but they aren't always[edit]

The first sentence says, "Māori names are given first, followed by English alternatives". But this is not always the case, eg "Sooty shearwater or titi" and "White heron or kotuku". Should the first sentence be changed or the list? Nurg (talk) 04:58, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer to keep the sentence and change the places where it's not followed. Also, if someone's got the energy and time, there are a lot more Māori names that could be added.  SchreiberBike | ⌨  05:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For consistency with other similar pages the bird's common name in English (whether its origin is English or Maori) should be listed first. But if the Maori name is different from the common name, it can be listed afterwards (in parentheses). E.g.,
Ross Finlayson (talk) 07:44, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Order of genera within each family[edit]

How are the genera ordered (or how should they be ordered) within each family? They don't seem to be following (at least not always) "The eBird/Clements checklist of birds of the world: v2016". Nurg (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Families are ordered by Clements, except for the extinct ones they do not recognize, which are placed as best as I can guess as they relate to other families.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"P" in the key[edit]

What does "P" in the key stand for? Is it "Passage"? Nurg (talk) 09:59, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Purpose of some boldfaced text?[edit]

I just made these edits mostly to get rid of some unnecessary boldfaced text as described at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds/Country lists#use of bold. This list had some names emboldened and I wasn't sure why. For instance Pacific long-tailed cuckoo, Urodynamis taitensis, was in bold. I removed the bolding for that and others. If there was a reason for the boldface text that I did not understand, please let me know and I'll fix my error and add an explanation. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨  22:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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