Talk:Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

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Rewrite needed[edit]

I am not competent to judge the factual issues discussed here with such passion, but as a professional writer in English I am competent to declare the section "Father of Nuclear program" a linguistic train wreck. Immediately we see "Nuclear" capitalized but "program" in lower case, and spelled the American way. In the body of the section the spelling changes to British "programme." But that is just a hint of what is to come. By the last two paragraphs we have descended into chaos, with "somewhat" made into two words, "kissinger" not capitalized, spaces before commas due to simple mistyping, the verb "advise" mistaken for the noun "advice," missing words, and just plain gibberish ("he sought on a along journey"). It's ridiculous copy like this that casts doubt on the whole premise of the Wikipedia. I know someone is going to comment snarkily that while I was writing this screed I could have simply corrected the errors; but no, I couldn't, because things like "he sought on a along journey" are not clear enough in meaning to correct, and are more important than capitalizing "kissinger." I would rather someone who knows the facts and is actually competent in English rewrite the whole thing, than for me to do it piecemeal, fixing some things and leaving others in tatters. There are occasional oddities in the rest of the article as well, but this section is by far the worst. Billcito (talk) 04:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

underway, a mere 2 years later, and will be something that will get a little ongoing attention for several days/ weeks FeatherPluma (talk) 01:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
have to say that as I try to work through this article it is very heavy going FeatherPluma (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Far too many issues with this article. The sentence "In 20 January 1972, weeks after the Indo-Pakistani 1971 winter war, Bhutto orchestrated, authorised, and administrated the scientific research on nuclear weapons; for this, he is colloquially known in the world as "Father of the Pakistan's nuclear deterrent programme": is a particularly glaring example of the jumble of poor grammar, bad sentence structure, POV comments, unsourced references, and mix of fact and opinion. What does "then-Major-General K.M. Arif secretly met with Bhutto on emergence, revealing the planning of coup has been taking in the General Combatant Headquarters" mean? And how could Bhutto be not found guilty, yet be convicted? The problems with the article go far beyond very poor English.124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:11, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Allegiance to which Muslim sects[edit]

Benazir bhutto was not shiite by faith and her father z.a bhutto too was not shiite but a hanfi sunni (brailvi) even z.a bhutto’s 2nd wife was a Iranian Shiite but he was a sunni. z.a Bhutto,shanawaz, murtaza and benazir namaz jinaza was done by a sunni brailvi mullah name mufti ibrahim iskandri and his late father who was a sunni mullah too. If bhuttos were Shiite then sunni mullah would never have done(funaral prayer) namaz jinaza of them. If one visit the graveyard of Bhutto family can see the names of 4 companions abu bakar,umar,usman and ali are written on the graves which is not the Shiite tradition. During the z.a bhutto’s government a sunni hanafi(brailvi) Maulana Kausar Niazi (1934-1994) was a most powerful federal minister in Pakistan during the Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s government was made minister of religious affairs not any Shiite. If any one have any doubt about Bhutto family being a Shiite, must contact the Pakistan government officially where all the information’s about this issue can be find. Zia ul haq was not a sunni he was a big wahabi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilal alrai (talk • contribs) 21:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Religion[edit]

Are you seriously meaning that his grand child doesn't know what his religion was? Muslim-Sunni [1]

References

  1. ^ Bhutto, Fatima (2010). Songs of Blood and Sword a Daughter's Memoir. Jonathan Cape. pp. 50–51. ISBN 978-0-224-08753-7.

Changes in Nuclear Programme Section[edit]

I have made changes in Bhutto's Father of Nuclear Programme Section. Bhutto's close aide Kausar Niazi's book cannot be trusted as reliable source because it is leaning towards A.Q. Khan's achievements. Niazi repeatedly disrespected PAEC and Munir Ahmad Khan, by labeling him as Electrical engineer who doesn't understand the nuclear matters. In fact, Khan was Nuclear engineer and known Bhutto since 1965. Munir Ahmad Khan headed the programme with extreme administrative authority, and developed the programme under extreme secrecy. Other sources such as Atlantic Monthly and Time Magazines provided neutral sources and facts rather than Kausar Niazi's book. In Niazi's book, A.Q. Khan is portraited as Nuclear physicist/engineer and designer of the nuclear weapon. He completely ignored the fact that he was metallurgical engineer charged with one task. Niazi also failed to mention Khan's illicit nuclear trafficking network, and his alleged role in the development.

So, I humbly request not to revert any changes. The neutral sources are referenced it together. And, Salam's section also added as he was Bhutto's Science Advisor. In context we agree with Niazi's book, that if Bhutto had decided to go with AQ Khan's pursuit, than there would be no need for PAEC and Abdus Salam and Munir Ahmad Khan's role in the development of the weapons. Simply, just ignore the facts, and delete their pages from Wikipedia Biography.

In commentary, Niazi's account is more like portraying AQ Khan as National hero and ignoring the fact that the such programme is developed by the determination of hundreds of scientists and engineers (PAEC), not by one person (AQ Khan). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.0.105.21 (talk) 03:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Caste & Oringinal Place of family[edit]

I found that Butto was Rajput in his wikipedia and Rajput wikipedia is also withness on it that it is clane of Ruputs but same time Butto family is written as Arian family in wikipedia of his father. which is the correct? Moreover this was not Sindi family. They migrated from Punjab. Please rectify with the correct inforamtion. Thanks. Mohammad Awais Rana

Inconsistency in article[edit]

Regarding the nuke program, the article says:

After India's nuclear test — codename Pokhran-I — in May 1974, Bhutto sensed a great danger for Pakistan.

This sentence is out of place, inconsistent and gives a false impression.

Out of place and inconsistent, because everything else in the section makes clear that Bhutto had decided back in 1972 that a bomb was needed and was doing everything in his power to get the nuke. The above line, placed at the beginning of the paragraph and otherwise as well, gives the false impression that India exploding the bomb was his main motivation. I would recommend that this line be modified to say: "Bhutto plans of gaining a nuclear device gained new impetus after the 1974 nuke test by India". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taimura (talk • contribs) 05:10, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

incorrect, the drive to nuclear device was after the indain tests --Multanguy47 (talk) 14:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit discussion[edit]

Bhutto was leader of pakistan, just as Obama is not leader of the Free world, that is not an opinion its a fact. Bhutto was PM for 7 years ? bhutto was also not a communist he had socialist polies.and on what basis do you think his economic policies failed ? because he was NOT as succesful as the early 1960s ? but his growth was more balances and people preffered it --Multan47 (talk) 02:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC) also zia did not privatise everything, so that is irrelvant if u insist on mentioning zia privatise policy at least say he only did it to get political support of the industrialist elite and only gave it back to pro zia families After the fall of the Bhutto government Zia returned assets back to families in return for political support [1][reply]

personally I dont think what zia and musheraff did is relevant--Multan47 (talk) 03:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)--Multan47 (talk) 03:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Baker, Raymond (2005). Capitalism's Achilles heel: Dirty Money and How to Renew the Free-market System. John Wiley and Sons. p. 82. ISBN 9780471644880. Retrieved 20 October 2011.

Bhutto Leader[edit]

?--Multan47 (talk) 00:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC) yes I think so ? If no disagree then the Leader REference will be final and no more changing[reply]

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indo-pak wars[edit]

1965 is refered to minor skirmishes while 1971 as a bitter pakistani defeat? 1965 was not a minor clash with 670 tanks fighting in a single secter and 500 in another secter......... in 1971 too the indians converted a ceasefire to a surrender deed and failed to achiev any objectiv suffereing terrible losses. the word bitter and bitter be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.185.113.123 (talk) 14:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Z A Bhutto's Role in the fall of Dhaka[edit]

I will start with the general election of 1970 in which Awami League won all the seats of East Pakistan except that of Noor-ul-ameen. In the National Assembly Awami League had the majority and it was the democratic right of the Awami League to form the government But Z A Bhutto being leader of the PPP had less seats in the national Assembly did not accept this fact and tried his best to stop the National assembly session being held in Dhaka (east Pakistan) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tariqlive (talk • contribs) 09:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Z A Bhutto's Role in the fall of Dhaka[edit]

I will start with the general election of 1970 in which Awami League won all the seats of East Pakistan except that of Noor-ul-ameen. In the National Assembly Awami League had the majority and it was the democratic right of the Awami League to form the government But Z A Bhutto being leader of the PPP had less seats in the national Assembly did not accept this fact and tried his best to stop the National assembly session being held in Dhaka (east Pakistan) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tariqlive (talk • contribs) 09:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Its more complicated than that, and a very partisan view. Bhutto was not in government at the time, he was not in charge of police tactics and many people attribute false quotes to him. The fall of Dhaka is more complicated linked to cyclone,india (augusta conspiracy later admitted) and Ayub Khan dictatorship empowering extremists. --Multan47 (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True. In the Pakistan page, it is written that at the time of the 1970 elections, ZA Bhutto wasn’t a PM and “Yahya Khan and the military establishment refused to hand over power…” Pakistan. Nonetheless, the situation would be a lot different today had East Pakistan been allowed to rule the country. The whole Bhutto hanging and military martial law might never have happened. How much was the military involved in politics at the time of the 1970 elections and conflict with East Pakistan? Did East Pakistan not have an army? I feel these are important items the article both the Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Pakistan look into, as military has influenced Pakistan politics greatly. Gemini210 (talk) 21:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing and hard to read[edit]

Some sections of this article, such as the end of the "United States and Soviet Union" section contain grammatical anomalies and odd word choices to the point that it is hard to tell what they are supposed to mean. Considering that this is an article about a leader from a non-English speaking country, this is most likely a result of being written by someone who is not completely fluent in English. Also, the end of the "Popular unrest and military coup" section and the subsequent sections seem to repeat accounts of the same events multiple times in a highly disorganized fashion.--69.148.181.144 (talk) 02:32, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan and central asia[edit]

I have read the entire article. I find this article a bit bias and inconsistent. Here I would like someone to please rework the section Afghanistan and Central Asia, since this section seems bias. I have made few changes. here is a sentence I m not sure about " In 1974, Bhutto held a meeting of senior military officials and strategists where he hold talks of possible war with Afghanistan, due to persistent aggressive acts by Afghanistan." This is already written and explained in the above paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.32.97.183 (talk) 19:42, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2015[edit]

Bhutto never recovered any prisoners of war through the Simla Agreement. It was the 1973 Delhi Agreement that sealed the release of those prisoners. 180.215.14.95 (talk)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  05:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Quaid-i-Awam[edit]

The lead text claims Bhutto is revered as a "Quaid-i-Awam" or "Peoples Leader". I think it should be removed per WP:NPOV because the source is a book by his own granddaughter. She is hardly going to be critical of him. I don't mind that statement remaining if we can find a source that isn't related to him or a member of his party. 92.40.248.5 (talk) 21:13, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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A question[edit]

As long as she is the prime minister, relations between Bangladesh and Pakistan cannot normalise, The Nation noted - Here, "She" means who? Mujib or Bhutto? Is using "She" suitable? Rafi (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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Serious POV problem and bad/no citation[edit]

"As president, Bhutto faced mounting challenges on both internal and foreign fronts. The trauma was severe in Pakistan, a psychological setback and emotional breakdown for Pakistan. The two-nation theory—the theoretical basis for the creation of Pakistan—lay discredited, and Pakistan's foreign policy collapsed when no moral support was found anywhere, including long-standing allies such as the U.S. and China"

This part is not cited and reads like a biased editorial. There is a lot of debate on the two-nation theory and to simply discredit it with sided POV is not academically honest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.175.178.17 (talk) 02:15, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


"By the time Bhutto was given the control of his country in 1971, Pakistan was torn apart, isolated, demoralized, and emotionally shattered after a psychological and bitter defeat at the hands of its bitter rival India.[121]"


The citation does not lead to an article so this reads as a very biased POV with no citation.

These strong POV need to be correct and citations checked.

Bhutto not hanged but tortured to death[edit]

The statement that Bhutto was hanged is incorrect. He was rather tortured to death. Booted army men crushed his chest with their heavy boots. After death, Bhutto's tortured body was taken from the jail to the graveyard in a trash truck and the public was made unaware of his death. After burial, his grave was guarded by army for 40 days and no one was allowed near it to prevent exhuming, so no one could know the condition his body was in. Why was Zia Ul Haq so hateful of the man who had raised his ranks? It was to do with the fact that Bhutto had made the law that declared Ahmadiyya Non-Muslims. In revenge, Bhutto and his whole family was killed. A19ldr (talk) 07:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have issued a warning for the edit you made to the article, for which you provided no source. Dont do that. -Roxy the bad tempered dog 09:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article says that he was "horribly tortured" (or something similar) in prison. But when I clicked on the linked article it says that he was kept in chains, in a cell next to howling mental patients, denied proper washing facilities and treatment for his dental problems (yes, I know bad teeth are painful). I take the point that he wasn't treated particularly decently in prison, but describing this as "torture" seems like hyperbole, unless we have other evidence. We should reserve that word for things like beatings, electric shocks, waterboarding etc.Paulturtle (talk) 01:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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