Talk:Flaming Doctor Pepper

Article name: Dr, Dr., or Doctor?

This article has moved back and forth between "Flaming Dr Pepper" and "Flaming Dr. Pepper" (note the difference in punctuation). It has finally come to rest at "Flaming Doctor Pepper" after deliberation between discospinster and Willscrlt, a member of Mixed Drinks WikiProject, in May 2008 and earlier deliberations between several people in January and February 2007. Here is a copy of the recent discussion and also analysis of the Wikipedia guidelines leading to this decision.

Archived conversation - please do not modify

Hello. As you noted, the trademark is Dr Pepper (no period). Therefore, a Flaming Dr Pepper is an incorrect use of a trademarked brand name. It should correctly be Flaming Dr. Pepper (with a period) to indicate that the flaming version is, in fact, not the same thing (but something similar to) the trademarked brand. The only drinks that should omit the period are drinks that actually include honest-to-goodness Dr Pepper in them. Taste-alikes should include the period. This was actually a consensus decision reached by Mixed Drinks Wikiproject members back in early 2007. It is even used as a specific example (5.2.1) in the "Policies specific to the List of cocktails" (which are more accurately "guidelines", but I didn't understand the distinction back when I first started that section). None of this is to say that things couldn't be changed again and switched back the other way around. I have no intention of changing the new status quo, but I wanted you to know that there was historical discussion about the way things were prior to your recent change. Have a good day! --Willscrlt (Talk) 21:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC) Thanks for the update. I deleted the article based on a request from another user, but now I see it's not that obvious. I can move it back if you think it's preferable. ... discospinster talk 21:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC) Hi again. I can easily see both sides of the argument. That's why I said I wasn't going to change it. Personally, I think that Flaming Dr. Pepper is the better way to go, even though it has its problems, too. Whichever way it ends up, I think that both talk pages (the article and the redirect) should have a notation included right near the top of the page that explains the reasoning behind the current name, and then point people to the Policies specific to the List of cocktails (updating the guidelines if necessary to reflect the change in preference). One other bit of historical information is that it was generally preferred to avoid trademark names in drinks (use "coffee flavored liqueur" instead of "Kahlua") unless a specific brand was critical to the flavor of the drink or was listed in historical sources as the alcohol of choice. Thus, using Dr. Pepper instead of Dr Pepper meets that guideline, too, though it's really just a big gray area. WP:MIX is not nearly as active as it was, but the many thousand of edits the other Project members and I made back in early 2007 has had a carry over effect to the current articles, for which I am really quite proud. It's also why I keep those pages in my watchlist. You know, maybe the better option would be to do as I did in this topic subject... avoid the issue entirely by redirecting BOTH Flaming Dr Pepper and Flaming Dr. Pepper to Flaming Doctor Pepper. That is even farther away from the trademark, yet is instantly readable and comprehensible for what it is. Still include a note at the top of each talk page, but that might be the best solution of all. What do you think? --Willscrlt (Talk) 22:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC) A Google search shows about 32,000 results for "Flaming Dr. Pepper" (and most of the results in the first few pages use the full stop), but only about 1,200 for "Flaming Doctor Pepper". I would suggest moving it back to Flaming Dr. Pepper with a note on the talk page explaining why it has the full stop. Thoughts? ... discospinster talk 00:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC) I think sometimes that Wikipedia influences Google results almost as much as Google influences Wikipedia information. :-) As a simple choice between Dr and Dr., I agree that Dr. would be the better choice given the wide disparity between the two numbers. So, it's time to look at Dr. vs. Doctor. Here is how I interpret WP:NAME in this case: Use common names of persons and things - This would indicate that the high Google hits on Dr. wins Prefer spelled-out phrases to abbreviations - Clearly favors Doctor Controversial names - Not exactly applicable, but would seem to indicate that we should "go with the flow" on the Dr v. Dr. debate and allow Dr. to be the name for the article in a choice between just those two choices Use standard English for titles even if trademarks encourage otherwise - Definitely indicates that we should avoid Dr, but does it make the case for Doctor (that's how it's actually pronounced) or Dr. which is how it's often typed? Looking at WP:NCP, I find an especially appropriate rule: Qualifiers not between brackets states that «If a qualifier is used in the title of a page where the content is, it is never abbreviated (apart from Jr./Sr. as described above), so: "Saint", not "St." nor "St". Also here, for redirect pages there is no problem to use an abbreviated form, example: Dr. Livingstone is a viable redirect to the David Livingstone article» - This would strongly favor Doctor over Dr. with Dr. (and probably also Dr) redirecting to Flaming Doctor Pepper So, there you have it. My recommendation, based strictly on the naming guidelines and your Google searching, would be to name the article itself Flaming Doctor Pepper. Flaming Dr. Pepper would be the next best alternative, but would probably make a better redirect. Flaming Dr Pepper should definitely be a redirect under any circumstance. Whatever we decide, I think we should archive this conversation in the talk page of the final article to help avoid people repeatedly having to go through this thought process. :-) What do you think of all this? --Willscrlt (Talk) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC) Well, how can I argue with that logic?!? You make some great points. I will move the article to Flaming Doctor Pepper and post our convo on the talk page. But I think we should keep Flaming Dr Pepper as a redirect, as not everyone uses a full stop after abbreviations like Dr or Mr. ... discospinster talk 02:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Please add to the discussion if you agree or disagree, but please do not move the article again until, and unless, a clear consensus develops involving more people or some other guideline or policy that we missed clearly indicates that we should make (another) change. Thanks!

Willscrlt (Talk) 04:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC) and discospinster _talk 02:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Nomination for DYK

This article is too short and incomplete to be featured in DYK. I think you may want to add these things to it:

• Invention of this drink: who? when?
• Its evolution: early recipe -> current ones (variations)
• Why it tastes like Dr. Pepper?
• Trivia: Its lovers and haters (e.g. James Bond loves it; Fred Flintstone hates it)
• Why didn't people just add vodka to Dr. Pepper? (How about Flaming Coke? Flaming Fanta? Flaming Pepsi? Flaming root beer? Flaming tom kha gai? Flaming vodka??? (Smirnoff + Absolut; taste + brilliant marketing))
• Markets (all bars in Ethiopia supply it, no one sells this thing in Los Angeles ...)

WP:NOT

Wikipedia is not just a cookbook. You may want to expend this article in light of this fact. -- Toytoy 01:23, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Plastic cup

I found this article hilarious. My only gripe is that when someone says to use a "plastic cup" I think of a really low-grade, single-use kind of cup, which probably wouldn't work if the beverage was on fire. --Mr Bound 13:51, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

the plastic cup contains the non flaming beer portion of this beverage. the flaming shot is extinguished by the beer and there is little risk of the plastic cup melting. Alkivar 17:13, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Plastic shouldn't and doesn't have to be used, I've never seen it used myself (use a glass with a thick bottom, found in most bars - glass beer mugs work best).

plastic is recommended because drunks tend to chip the shots when dropping them into a highball glass. take it from this ex-bartender :) Alkivar 01:54, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe the reason that it isn't just vodka and Dr. Pepper is because it is a suprise that it tastes so close to Dr Pepper. I did a little research and found this page which has this story:

The original Dr. Pepper was first invented in a local night club called "The Goldmine." And the true recipe calls for 3/4 mug of beer (the better the beer the better the taste) or however much it takes to cover the shot glass. Then take a shot glass and fill it 3/4 the way with amaretto and top it off with Everclear (180 proof). The reason it changed is most of the country can't get Everclear so a sutitable substitute had to be found, so 151 was used, which is a more popular alcohol. Then take the shot glass, light it, drop it, drink it. And that is the whole story.

If anyone can validate that, awsome. Also from a Dr Pepper Usenet FAQ (1998)

"Just got back today from the Dublin bottling plant and museum. There has been a lot of debate on what flavor Dr Pepper really is, so I asked Mr. Kloster [Bill Kloster], the plant owner, who has worked in that plant for almost 60 years. According to him, Dr Pepper is a mix of 23 different fruit flavors. The original creator wanted to create a drink that tasted like the smell of a soda shop. When you walked into a soda shop in that day, you smelled all the fruit flavors of the different sodas all mixed into one. So he basically took a bunch of flavors and mixed them, and came up with Dr Pepper. He said Dr Pepper does not and has never had prune juice in it."

I believe the main flavor is cherry, look at a Mr. Pibb can sometime, which is the reason Amaretto is used. Also, I'm giving you the heads up: I'm going to add a suggestion of using a dark beer instead of "beer". Many people suggest this, and that is how I tried it the first time. JoeHenzi 08:29, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"I believe the main flavor is cherry, which is the reason Amaretto is used." that makes no sense as Amaretto is an ALMOND flavored alcohol. Alkivar 01:44, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While that may be true, many people find the tastes and aromas of cherries and almonds to be similar. Recall, if you will, that both are members of the genus prunus. Along with almonds and cherries, another member is the plum. A prune is a dried plum, and this is probably the origination of the legend that Dr. Pepper contains prune juice! (Science trumps voodoo any day.)JD79 15:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced article

I think this article is misplaced. It shouldn't be in wikipedia. I suggest to remove this article and:

1. Move all the article with the recipe to the Wikicookbook
2. redirect this article to a subitem in the article Cocktail, with just a reference to Faming dr.Pepper

--Alexandre Van de Sande 16:43, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Obviously the article has undergone much improvement since this suggestion was made, and it not longer applies. --Willscrlt (Talk) 04:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Bad cocktails

I randomly visited about a dozen cocktail pages. They are ALL as bad as this article. Blue Hawaiian even redirects to cocktail. A unified cookbook interface will be great. Otherwise, a long page with all recipes will still be useful. -- Toytoy 18:00, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Link to WikiBooks: Bartending

The linked article contains a totally different drink, with no fire or everclear/baracardi 151. So I removed it for now.

Simpsons

Made myself a Flaming Dr Pepper last night. Very nice. Anyway I'm pretty sure this wasn't the inspiration for the Simpsons episode as there are a number of flaming cocktails and this one seems one of the least similar.

I'm with this guy. The Flaming Moe is made completely differently. It does not have a shot dropped in it, it tastes horrible until set on fire and it has completely different ingredients. What was the basis for stating the Flaming Moe is based on a Flaming Dr Pepper? The only thing they seem to have in common is the fact that you set them on fire, and there's more than one flaming drink in existance. --Teddywithfangs 04:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Origins, names, and other changes

I could not find any reliable sources backing up the claim that the Ptarmigan Club was the origin of this drink. I know that Google results indicate that is true, but evaluating the actual content of the various links, it appears that they are only reprinting information found here at Wikipedia. Most of the information concerning the Gold Mine being the source seems to come from an AOL City Guide article making that claim. It is difficult to tell how reliable that article is since it is unsigned and undated. I was not able to determine how their articles are written (by professional journalists or common bar patrons for example). I did find several comments from average patrons that Gold Mine makes the best tasting Flaming Dr Peppers, but not really any indication that they did or did not create it.

I could not find any reference to the name vice Peppar, except Wikipedia itself, so I removed that name. Flaming Dr Pepper, Flaming Dr. Pepper, and Flaming Dr. Peppar are all fairly common search results. To help avoid confusion by readers, I created a section concerning the names. To avoid a self reference, I did not mention why our article is named "Doctor" instead of "Dr." or "Dr" (see the top of this page if you are curious).

I cut the Dr. Pepper shandy section to about half its size. I'm still not convinced that it even belongs in an article about Flaming Doctor Pepper. On the other hand, I don't know where else it would fit any better.

Does anyone know how relevant the Hot Rod film reference is under popular culture? If it's just a passing mention, it's just trivia and should be removed. If it is significant in the movie, then that should be expanded upon.

--Willscrlt (Talk) 08:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

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