Talk:Mutaween

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  • page one - Subjects older than June 2005

the naming[edit]

i suggest to chang the name Mutaween because in saudi the name Mutaween mean (religious man) and so any one who come to saudi well very confeosed so i suggest to use there offical name (hesbah) or the more commen name haia'a (arabic:هيئه) if any one think otherwise reply --Arabian soul 11:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

August 28, 2007: The "etymology" section does not include any etymology. It would be interesting to have some. --yerubal

Islamist[edit]

What makes Iran and Nigeria "Islamist". Saudi Arabia would consider itself salafi'ist rather than Wahabbi'ist, but calling it Islamist would be acceptable. Would it not make more sense to refer to them as Muslim nations? --Irishpunktom\talk 11:51, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

  • Rightly or wrongly, the term "Islamist" refers to nations where stripes of radical Islam has taken hold. For example (and bearing in mind this example is from the general Western view), Malaysia and Iran are both Muslim nations, but Malaysia has a more open and democratic society, whereas Iran does not. Thus, Malaysia is a "Muslim nation", whereas Iran is an "Islamist nation". It's a rather pointless label (Malaysia does some things that Westerners would consider disquieting, and Iran is not as bad as some Western nations make it out to be), but that's the general western view. I'm sure that some Muslim nations probably have "categories" for Western/Christian/etc. nations, too.--Mitsukai 12:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • What a difference two years makes: You can safely describe Malaysia as "Islamist" now.--Mike18xx 19:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's a POV term, to be honest, how about "Sharia ruled", or nations whose law is based on their interpritations of the Shariat.. or something like that. --Irishpunktom\talk 13:34, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
      • Sounds fair enough to me, but I'd feel more comfortable if a few more people weighed in on this as well.--Mitsukai 14:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I would consider it more appropriate to describe Saudi Arabia as a feudal monarchy, which employs the Mutaween as a corps of zampolit-like thugs. To call Saudi a Muslim nation is really a smear on Islam in general.
          • The fanatics, in turn, would say, "You are not a real Muslim!" And they are correct in that they know their own religion better than those who follow slightly softer variants adopted by conquered peoples.--Mike18xx 19:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Conquered? In a way the whole muslim world is conquered, even Saudi Arabia. Is that a way of distinguishing the people of arabia? because it is wrong. Schools of thaught exist everywhere.SheriKan 05:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Duties of the Mutaween Commentary Removed[edit]

I removed the last paragraph under the Duties of the Mutaween section:

Generally, in Western eyes members of this authority shall appear as monstrous suppressors, for whom formal laws are more important than human life, who encourage snitchers, who denies basical human rights and so on. Most probably, this Western view is true, and might be shared by the vast majority of Muslims. Comparisons are frequently drawn between the mutaween and other organizations who enforced religious and/or political dogma, such as the Gestapo, Stasi, KGB, and the inquisition.

This is unencyclopedic commentary. I actually agree with the statement "Most probably, this Western View is true" but such commentary has no place in a NPOV encyclopedia.--Brentt 21:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]



Brennt, most probably you are right. But: we really do nmot like these guys, accordingly, it shall be allowed to express some disgust.--Lotse5000 11:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)--[reply]

In my personal opinion I think they are pricks who should all be locked in mental hostpitals. I would certainly be a target of the Mutaween, as I am an athiestic libertarian-socialist who enjoys ingesting recreational drugs and whom is not very fond of the terrible hardship that such incarnations of Islam has wrought on people--and a unabashed Zionist to boot. But this is a encyclopedia with a strict NPOV policy, not a place to insert our opinions. --Brentt 22:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the initial pargraph is actually too poorly written. Of course, removing emotional language and making it more passive is 100% necessary, but otherwise I don't see the unencylopaedic nature of it. I do, of course, agree with the fact that we can't express any form of personal opinion in this article as a fact. Cheers, Hauser 06:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Archive[edit]

Due to the size of this page, I have archived topics earlier than June 2005. They can be accessed from the link at top.--み使い Mitsukai 02:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral Point of View?[edit]

I totally agree with the earlier posts, this article used particular words that weren't necessarily applicable. Additionally, the "mutaween" events in "secular democracies" is pretty misleading - I mean, it was a group affiliated with an offshot of the NOI that was angry about Yemeni store owners selling liquor in black communities in Oakland. --Sir192


Merge[edit]

I may be ignorant on the subject, but from what I understand, the Mutaween and the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice are the same thing. Perhaps that article should be merged into this one? --Tbook 23:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

... Never mind. I figured out that Mutaween is the general term in any Islamic state, and the Committee is specific to Saudi Arabia. --Tbook 23:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More specifically (i.e., narrowly), the Committee is the Saudi government buearocracy which enforces Sharia.--Mike18xx 05:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy[edit]

Among several accuracy issues at this article is the section I have just tagged regarding nations featuring "mutaween" - the section offers a subjective and flawed definition of what constitutes "mutaween" in those countries and no sources are offered to back up such claims. Iran, for instance, does not have any police force described as "mutaween." SouthernComfort 03:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a merely a language quibble; Iran otherwise has extra-legal enforcement organizations similar to those in other Islamic nations, and they are detailed.--Mike18xx 18:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gestapo[edit]

the website of austria's national public-service broadcaster ORF states [1]:

  • ger.: "Auch das geringste Anzeichen nichtislamischer Religionsausübung - etwa der Besitz von Kreuzen, Ikonen, Bibeln, christlicher Literatur - wird von der "Mutawayin", die angeblich nach 1945 von konvertierten Gestapoleuten aufgebaut wurde, als Staatsverbrechen verfolgt.", meaning
  • engl.: "Even the least indication of non-islamic worship - for instance the possession of crosses, icons, bibles, christian literature - will be punished as political crime by the "Mutawayin", which was developed allegedly after 1945 by converted members of the Gestapo."

is there any reference for the gestapo-connection ? -- Cherubino 17:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--172.202.246.237 21:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)ame==Baseej?==[reply]

I dont think Iran's Baseej really falls under the "Mutaween". The komite did. But not the Baseej.

Although they do enforce moral laws here and there nowadays, they are more of a political paramilitary group. They would rise in conflict against other clerics and Islamic groups of Iran, if necessary.

Their founding is especially tied to the Iran-Iraq war.--Zereshk 15:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the Basij should get a mention in this artical as it is part of there duties,Hejazi described the prohibition of vice and the promotion of virtue in society as the "divine policy" of the Basij. So they should be in here.Hypnosadist 12:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to point out that the Saudi Arabian Mutaween cannot have been formed by converted by gestapo members in 1945 as Saudi Arabia did not exist until a long time afterwards. Plus I found the comments by some people about islam on this page to be complete ignorance. If you want to make opinionated comments at least know what you are talking about before you talk shit or isrespect a 1 billion + religion. 172.202.246.237 21:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Nad[reply]

Anti-Muslim article[edit]

This article cannot figure out whether it is about Saudi Arabia or about Muslims in general. There is so much personal opinion and bigotry here I cannot sort it all out. I have removed an entire section because it was completely someones opinion and had no sources to link these countries with mutaween. Please do not spread your anti-Muslim holy wars here on Wikipedia. AlMuslimeen 05:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the government of suadi box should be removed as that would pertain to the Commity of vice and vertue, not to the concept of Mutaween in general,which is what this artical should be about.Hypnosadist 12:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mutaween in other countries[edit]

What other countries do have or have had Mutaween, i know the talaban in afganistan did so they should be here,anyone else.Hypnosadist 12:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Partisanship"[edit]

Accusing a source of "partisanship" is not the same as proving it inaccurate.--Mike18xx 22:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you may wish to note that accusing an editor of being an "Islamist partisan" is a personal attack. i suggest you stop. thank you. ITAQALLAH 23:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If such a designation truly bothers you, then I suggest you do something about your own user page. Be that as it may, your instant obsession with ad hominem obscura suggests that you've nothing to say about the verifiability of the sources you wish to expunge -- which is as I suspected. Complaining about moi is just a red herring to distract attention.--Mike18xx 23:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Unacceptably biased"[edit]

Itagallah, please provide us poor, flounding Wikipedians with a list of some sources with are (A) not "unacceptably biased" in your eyes while simultaneously not (B) stooges of Islamist propaganda in my eyes. Prior to then, I suggest refraining from removal of an otherwise verifiable source for no other reason than that you don't like them.--Mike18xx 23:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no, i stated that the narrative you have based upon this source is unacceptably biased. the quote from "AsiaNews" has always remained in the article, something i am sure you are aware of. ITAQALLAH 23:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You may consider is "unacceptably biased" (a pure arbitrary for starters, and "biased" against whom you do not indicate {the Mutaween???}.), but it is, however, verified by the source.--Mike18xx 23:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Murder and theft are also religious crimes. --Sa.vakilian 05:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
<guffaw> You mean except when authorized by Muhammad against unbelievers?--Mike18xx 07:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is it a murder when the mutaween thugs force little girls back into a burning building? Or is that an example of an "acceptable" human sacrifice in this stone-age nut-cult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.157.14 (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above comment is a prime example of the POV differences that underlie this issue, many secular western laws have there first origin in the Ten Commandments but in europe they now "calibrate" to the European declaration of Human rights, in america to the Constitution. This should be made clear in this article Someway.Hypnosadist 16:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How would that be even slightly relevant to the subject of religious police?--Mike18xx 07:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you don't like a notable source doesn't mean that it isn't reliable. If you have evidence that these reports are erroneous -- please post it >right here<. Until then, I will cheerfully maintain that they do have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". It is not necessary that a notable source's reporting be corroborated in another notable source. Be that as it may, I've added another ten references for you to get all incensed about.--Mike18xx 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Just because you don't like a notable source doesn't mean that it isn't reliable." - apart from conflating notability with reliability, i don't think a Christian proselytising website can be considered a reliable source. in any case, reliability is not assumed until disproven, it must be proven. i do appreciate you have tried to collect further sources to add weight to the paragraph, but you fail to realise that we report - precisely - what sources say, and don't use sources to justify assertions they don't specifically relate. as such, the reference-spamming does not save the paragraph from being original research. some of the newly added sources appear to be reliable and useful (and, upon cursory reading, pertinent), so i will go about incorporating them without the unencyclopedic paragraph. ITAQALLAH 22:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

inaccuracy:Iran[edit]

Iran doesn't have especial police for religious issues and Iran's ordinary police or some other forces like Basij execute lows in this case. There isn't any difference between crimes in Iran as religious and secular.--Sa.vakilian 14:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC) These are the sites of Islamic republic of Iran police :[2] and [3][reply]

These are the facts of this section:

In Islamic republic of Iran there isn't any distinction among crimes and murder, theft, drinking alcohol and other crimes are the same.

Police in Tehran ordered to arrest women in 'un-Islamic' dress] and Iran's fashion police put on a show of chadors to stem west's cultural invasion, Iran crackdown on New Year revellers These are about police not religious police.

--Sa.vakilian 15:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the past(1980s) there were different police forces in Iran but then they merged and now there is just one police force. --Sa.vakilian 15:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok Sa.vakilian last time i was here this section was about Basij as the normal police were not usually covered under the concept of Mutaween. If you are knowledgable a brief writen time line of the changes of authority over inforcing sharia on the populus would be great. I'm going to move the iran section below the saudi section (as should be anyway as this is a saudi word).Hypnosadist 15:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In 1980s There was "The committees of Islamic revolution"

(کمیته های انقلاب اسلامی)

which did this but I can't find anything about it in English. Then It merged into Police force. In 1990s Basij and some other groups did this but as I know today only police force do this things. You can see:[[4]]
There isn't any distinction among crimes and murder, theft, drinking alcohol and other crimes are the same In Islamic republic of Iran. You can't find any low which separate some crimes and called it religious crimes.--Sa.vakilian 16:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If people if opposite gender hold hands, then they will be stopped by the religious police. The regular police and paramilitary force (Basij) cooperate. --Patchouli 21:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If members of the police turn into busybodies, become nosy and obssessed with sex, and enforce religion, then it is a religious police.--Patchouli 21:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be more true to say in iran all crimes (including theft and murder) are religious crimes. Hypnosadist 16:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Patchouli was banned forever so I propose new discussion.--Sa.vakilian 15:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Saudi Arabia First[edit]

I think that the Saudi Arabian section should be the first for several reasons. The first and i think foremost being that the word Mutaween is saudi in origin. Second that this is the most well sourced section and third is the least controversial.Hypnosadist 16:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Morality police in Iran[edit]

User:Sa.vakilian has deleted this entire section without compunction & left an unrelated remark at the edit summary.--Wiki2Go 21:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My dear friend, talk page is not a soapbox. You can add it in your personal soapbox. I put an explanation in the talk page and nobody challenged it during one month. Then I removed the section from the article and nobody protested. Even one wikipedian supported. Thus we can't leave it in the article or the talk page without discussion.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 06:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chasing teenagers down the street in Islamic Iran[edit]

- The government relied on "special units" (yegan ha-ye vizhe), to complement the existing morality police, called "Enjoining the Good and Prohibiting the Forbidden" (Amr be Ma'ruf va Nahi az Monkar) in an effort to combat "un-Islamic behavior" and social corruption among the young. These auxiliaries were to assist in enforcing the Islamic Republic's strict rules of moral behavior. Credible press reports indicated members of this morality force chased and beat persons in the streets for offenses such as listening to music or, in the case of women, wearing makeup or clothing regarded as insufficiently modest or being accompanied by unrelated men[1].

  1. ^ Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006 for Iran United States Department of State

This is an Islamic practice. I don't understand why User:Sa.vakilian cringes and feels so ashamed to delete even the talk page sections. The mullahs are purposely doing this to win the support of the ulema around the globe. I surmise that they prefer to advertise it as much as the nuclear program. Your censoring in fact gives credibility to those who claim Iran is un-Islamic, run by Shias, and try to divide Muslims.--NotSoFast3 07:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iran:controversial[edit]

There isn't especial police force for religious crimes in Iran. On one hand most of the crimes including theft, murder, adultery and etc are religious. On the other hand Police is responsible for confronting every crime, although there were another forces in the past who confront with crime but after Qalibaf's reforms all of them are managed by police of Iran.--Sa.vakilian 15:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are some claims in the article and I check all of them one by one:

  • 1- Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has had a religious police that punishes offenders relentlessly.

We can say after Islamic Revolution religious crimes are recognized and religious punishments are recognized as legitimate punishment by law. But there haven't been any especial police force for it. I

  • 2- Jamal Karimi-Rad, in 2006, has vowed to work with other governmental organizations and continue the prosecution of "social vice"[7].

Jamal Karimi-Rad was the speaker of judiciary system of Iran and he said this organization wants to co-work with others. I can't understand its relationship with this article.

  • 3- Islamic officials use words like "Western" and "un-Islamic" as their talking points to justify such arrests.[8][9][10]

I can't understand its relationship with the issue of this article.

  • 4- The Islamic government's obsession with the people's behavior and dress even reached a point when it would employ female religious police who "with a razor took off the lipstick from the lips" of other female citizens[11]

Yes, there is official code for women dress on the basis of hijab and some women are employed by police force to confront female guilty in any case like theft and murder. They're usual police force like others.

  • 5-The religious police is extremely disliked by some Iranian teenagers and youths.

Citation needed.

  • 6-Video of Iranian village youth explaining how Basijis arrested him while he was hanging out with his friends. [12]

Basij is not police force. They're under supervision of Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps. In some cases they help police force.

I like somebody describe relationship between interior ministry, the Basij of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards and Ansar e Hezbollah and religious police force.

  • 8- [They] work in tandem to curb un-Islamic demeanor. For example, any of them has the legal authority to question and take into custody people who, inter alia, flirt or women without the proper hijab.

Citation needed.

  • 9- However, the Islamic Republic of Iran allows women to attend educational institutions, drive, and work. Therefore, the Islamic laws are not as severe as they were in the Islamic State of Afghanistan.

What's the relationship.

  • 10- The government relied on "special units" (yegan ha-ye vizhe), to complement the existing morality police, called "Enjoining the Good and Prohibiting the Forbidden" (Amr be Ma'ruf va Nahi az Monkar) in an effort to combat "un-Islamic behavior" and social corruption among the young. These auxiliaries were to assist in enforcing the Islamic Republic's strict rules of moral behavior. Credible press reports indicated members of this morality force chased and beat persons in the streets for offenses such as listening to music or, in the case of women, wearing makeup or clothing regarded as insufficiently modest or being accompanied by unrelated menCountry Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006 for Iran

There is the list of the units of police of Iran[14]:

  1. Detective police(Police agahi):
  2. Preventive police(Police pishgiri entezami)
  3. Borders' police(Police Marzbani)
  4. Common military police(Police vazife umumi)
  5. Traffic police(Police rahnamayee va ranandegi)
  6. Interpol(Police Beynolmelal)
  7. Police + 10(Public service)
  8. Police for combat against drug(Police mobareze ba mavad mokhadder)

Ok. Which one of them religious or moral. I say all of them. Because every crime recognized as religius crime in Islamic republic. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


You can't find any law in Iran which speaks about religious police but you can find law about religious punishment.--Sa.vakilian 16:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed what about Iran in this article after waiting one month for answer to these criticism.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't fret about removing the nonsense about Iran. I believe that it was a "Patchouli" relic. The Behnam 05:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Patchouli, User:NotSoFast3, User:Wiki2Go or who else oppose above discussion, you should answer by adding fact one by one. I know the police force of Iran executes low and punished un-Islamic behavior but there isn't any law which separate police to religious and irreligious parts. There is just one police force who executes low. But there isn't anything as religious police in Iran. There might be some formal and informal groups who do so but today just police execute the low. Why there isn't such police unit? because crimes haven't been divided to Islamic and secular in Islamic republic. Murder and theft are religious crimes as well as drinking alcohol and prostitution. There is the list of the units of police of Iran[15]:

  1. Detective police(Police agahi):
  2. Preventive police(Police pishgiri entezami)
  3. Borders' police(Police Marzbani)
  4. Common military police(Police vazife umumi)
  5. Traffic police(Police rahnamayee va ranandegi)
  6. Interpol(Police Beynolmelal)
  7. Police + 10(Public service)
  8. Police for combat against drug(Police mobareze ba mavad mokhadder)

Ok. Which one of them religious or moral. I say all of them. Because every crime recognized as religius crime in Islamic republic. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it's just matter of a force being recognised by the state, there are a few, such as Ansar-e Hezbollah. But most importantly, there are those that operate in universities, I have forgotten the name. But even BBC recognises that "religious police" operates in Iran [16]. I think they may also be referred to as "Morality police" --Rayis 09:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My dear friend, we can't call some informal groups like Ansar Hezbollah or semi official groups like Basij az police. Police has a clear definition in Iran as well as other countries. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Sa.vakilian, please stop calling me your friend. Secondly, as I posted the link above, they are often called "police" even by the BBC, so in fact the definition of police is consistent in this case --Rayis 17:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not important what BBC says when it's not officially police force. As defined in Police article, Police are agents or agencies empowered to use force and other forms of coercion and legal means to effect public and social order. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Please go there and change the definition. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sa, we are discouraged from checking facts from sources. That's not our job. The article that I provided says that we have religious/morality police in Iran. They may not be official forces, but who says Ansar-e Hezbollah for example, are official? Does that mean they do not operate without 100% of the gvoernment's backing? This article as it stands, says that Mutaween are official or semi-official forces. Perhaps the whole thing is incorrect. If you have sources that say otherwise, please provide them, but do not remove material until disputes are solved, as with the other article --Rayis 10:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The police's site of Iran show we don't have. OK we can write both of them in the article. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 13:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I added something[17] but User:Khorshid removed it. I think at least 3 persons including me, Khorshid and The Behnam believe it's not correct to add Iran in this article.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think so, and wikipedia is not a sort of democracy where you can bully someone by numbers, stick to the rules --Rayis 01:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is no secret. Jim Dunnigan talks about Iran's religious police at http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=47359 --IslamicIran 01:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More sources for Iran[edit]

--IslamicIran 01:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is incorrect to use "mutaween" (which is not a general term for "religious police" but refers to specific type of concept) in relation to Iran, Afghanistan, etc. The proper articles are Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps and Basij, but this is not the place for original research and personal interpretation. Why you would try to connect this Saudi concept to Iran is mind boggling. Khorshid 03:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop Patchouli. Everyday you come with a new sock puppet.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 09:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Morality police other than the mutaween[edit]

while the mutaween are some of the more well known morality police, there are others, both legal and extra-legal. This usually occurs in asia. http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,395996,00.html (india)

morality police can range from police cracking down on courting couples to vigilante groups attacking anyone who they deem is being "immoral"

strictly speaking, morality police would be any group who violently and publicly oppose what they think is "immoral", but generally are social conservatives.

i feel that since the term "morality police" is a pan-religious term, it should be expanded to include all kinds of morality policing, not just the Mutaween, since pointing the "morality police" section to the mutaween gives the impression they are the only morality police out there LKGeek 12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Name Change: Morality police or Religious Police[edit]

What would people think of creating a new article under one of the names above with the information in this article going either to the new article, or the article on the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e. the article on the official mutaween)? --Leroy65X 16:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a merge request, which I would oppose. The CPVPV is a specific Saudi bureaucracy, whereas "mutaween" has become an umbrella term (see the etymology section in the article).--Mike18xx 05:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who calls the Iranian religious police mutaqeen? Iranian shia and Saudi wahhabis don't get along too well. --Leroy65X 17:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who needs a quick and handy term descriptive of any number of disparate entities with similar purpose and motivation. Again, see etymology.--Mike18xx 18:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"similar purpose and motivation" yes, but do they go by the same name even informally? --Leroy65X 14:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Visit the links in etymology.--Mike18xx 05:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We currently have at least three generic article titles (Religious police, Moral police, Morality police) redirecting here. I seriously doubt Islamist theocracies (or even Islam in general) has a monopoly on the concept, especially from a historical perspective, so we really need to come up with a stub for the overall concept, with a mention of and "see also" link to Mutaween. Of course, that means someone must do some minimal source research to provide at least a stub for the generic article. (Unless sources suggest otherwise, I'd suggest Morality police as the umbrella term, because religion also does not have a monopoly on morality, although it may have one on "policing" it. I don't know yet.) Thoughts? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a few source tidbits for a possible "Morality police" article:
  • Monter, E. William. Enforcing Morality in Early Modern Europe. London: Variorum Reprints, December 1987. ISBN 086078214X. (LOC call HN610.G36 M66 1987, Jefferson/Adams)
  • I found references to organizations formally called "Morality Police" in:
    • Fitzpatrick, Percy. The Transvaal from Within: A Private Record of Public Affairs. 1899. ( "... Broeskma, Third Public Prosecutor, and Lieutenant Murphy, of the Morality Police, actually assisted in breaking chairs, and encouraged the rioters.")
    • Jersild, Jens, and Oscar Bojesen. "Boy Prostitution". The Journal of Criminal Law, Criminology, and Police Science. Vol 48, No 4 (Nov-Dec 1957), pp. 438-439 doi:10.2307/1140238, p. 438-9. ("... Jersild, the Chief of Morality Police...")
    • Wilson, Colin; The Occult (2004); ISBN 1842931075. p. 367. ("Imperial Morality Police" chasing Franz Mesmer out of Vienna after "treating" Maria Theresa von Paradis)
    • Daina Stukuls Eglitis. Imagining the Nation: History, Modernity, and Revolution in Latvia. 2002. ISBN 0271022035. p. 248 (footnote). ("the Morality Police, the body responsible for policing the sex trade until it was merged with the Criminal Police in 1998")
  • I also found two local terms translating to some form of "morality police":
    • sittenpolizeilicher (German for "customs/morals police"), Hapsburg Empire, 1914. Healy, Maureen. Vienna and the Fall of the Habsburg Empire: Total War and Everyday Life in World War I. 2004. ISBN 0521831245, p. 95.
    • police des moeurs (French for "vice squad"), France, unknown time. John A. Fairlie. "Police Administration". Political Science Quarterly. Vol. 16, No. 1 (Mar., 1901), pp. 1-23, doi:10.2307/2140438 (mentioned on p. 21)
      • Possibly also alluded to (c. March 1871) in Marx & Lenin, The Civil War in France: The Paris Commune. 1988. ISBN 0717806669. p. 14.
And let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition, or as Fairlie suggests, modern vice squads. Anyway, there's some grist for the writing mill. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move of most of Saudi section to Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice[edit]

Any objections? --BoogaLouie 22:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have trimmed down the Mutaween#Mutaween in Saudi Arabia section and expanded the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice article. Hope everybody likes it. --BoogaLouie 22:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Literal meaning of word[edit]

According to the Arabic dictionary under root ط-و-ع , the literal meaning of the word would appear to be "volunteer"... AnonMoos 22:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's what it means and the concept predates both Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism. Mutawwa just meant minor religious figure in Nejd, such as a local prayer leader, as opposed to a "alim" (scholar) or "qadhi" (judge). Later on it came to mean anyone who was visibly religious (longer beard, short thobe, didn't listen to music, etc.). A member of the hay'ah (Committee for the promotion of vice bla bla bla) is a mutawwa, but not every mutawwa is a member of the hay'ah, or a "religious policeman". Since this is a purely Saudi (even Nejdi) concept I don't understand why there should be so much about Iran in this article. Slacker 05:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well Iran is only mentioned in one sentence.
If you have sources for what you just told us we should put it in the article. --BoogaLouie 17:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is also important to note the historical use of this term within Saudi Arabia. The early Mutawa'a as defined by Madawi Al-Rasheed in A History of Saudi Arabia, was a term for specifically Najdi men of religion in the formative period of the state of Saudi Arabia. They differed from other religious scholars, known as ulama in other parts of the Islamic world, for their insistence of Hanbali fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), “considered other branches of the religious and linguistic sciences as intellectual luxuries that were not needed in their own society” The Mutawa‘a were particularly concerned with ritualistic Islam rather than wider Islamic scholarship. The religious specialists were active in state building and would continue to serve this role throughout history, whereas the ikhwan “were a crucial military force created as a result of the mutawwa‘a’s efforts for the purpose of Sa‘udi expansions.”

The mutawwa‘a, it seems, had little legitimacy of their own until the Ibn Saud's capture of Riyadh in 1902. After this point, their rule of law, which included stringent “discipline and punishment,” essentially domesticated the various Arabian population centers into reaccepting the authority of Ibn Sa‘ud. Most importantly, the alliance between the Sa‘ud and the scholars allowed ritual functions to have a crucial role in state formation. Ibn Sa‘ud was legitimate as an imam for this group, so long as he recognized and enforced shari‘a to their interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madeleinehayden (talk • contribs) 19:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, what page is it from? --BoogaLouie 21:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You've forgot this template[edit]

{{LawinAsia}}

History -- when was it established?[edit]

Hello. I wonder if anyone can write a few paragraphs about the history of mutaween. When was the committee for the prevention of vice established, what were its forerunners, when did it assume its present-day significance, that sort of thing. Have a great day. 4.227.233.20 (talk) 19:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikifying note by anon[edit]

I have attempted to wikify this note:

NOTE: Mutawwa means "volunteer" in Arabic. It is used CASUALLY as a synonym for religious police, but in fact simply means "pious man". The proper term for the Saudi religious police is "hayaa" which is Arabic for "commission" and is a shortened version of "the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vices". This is an important etymological distinction because many native Arab speakers will use "mutawwa" simply to refer to any orthodox Muslim. So if non-Arab Westerners disparage the "mutawwa" (meaning the religious police) many native Arab speakers would interpret that to mean a disparagement of orthodox Muslim in general. This Wiki entry is misleading. It's very important to recognize that the traditional meaning of mutawwa is simply any Muslim that "volunteers" to adopt all the orthodoxies of Islam, including the non-compulsory ones such as growing long beards (for men), or (for women) wearing the Niqab (the full face veil). If ne uses the term "mutawwa" to refer specifically to "religious police" (as in state-sanctioned moral police authorities, like you see in Iran and Saudi Arabia) one much be clear that this is the type of "mutawwa" he or she is referring to.

--BoogaLouie (talk) 23:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other Countries[edit]

I type in Religious Police and get this. Surely Saudi Arabia isn't the only country with religious police, is it? One could argue that, here in America, there is religious police here. We were tried for sodomy in many states until 2003, for example. Thoughts? GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 16:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC) The Mutaween aren't quite the same. They are subjected to the Church, not to the state and exist separately. Although there are a plenty of states comparably conservative in America the religious law there is executed formally as the will of the people, not as that of the church.79.216.167.243 (talk) 01:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion to merge 'The Religious Policeman' entry into this entry.[edit]

It has been suggested that The Religious Policeman entry should be merged with this one. I disagree for the following reasons:

- This entry describes the role, rationale and activities of Mutaween or Religious Policemen. 'The Religious Policeman' entry describes a blog which uses that title because it satirises the Saudi Religious Police, the Saudi Arabian government, and human rights within Saudi Arabia. The orientations and subject matter of the two entries therefore differ greatly.

- Any merging of the two entries would bring together two communities whose outlook could be widely different, strongly antipathetic, and lead to unnecessary conflict. This entry will largely appeal to Muslims whose religious and cultural outlook tends to be serious and traditional. The entry for 'The Religious Policeman' will appeal to a wider international and multi-religious community whose attitude to Islam will vary from dubious to explicity antagonistic.

- This entry falls within the scope of the Law Enforcement project. The 'Religious Policeman' entry falls within the scope of the Blogging project. These different classifications alone argue that the two entries should remain separate.

PJO'M (talk) 11:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Homosexuality[edit]

It seems to this Westerner that the only notable cases of the Saudi or other mutaween arresting or harassing people for homosexuality is in regards to male sexuality. Are lesbians and/or bisexual women ignored by the religious police? -75.57.7.223 (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

58 of these saudi mutaween were shot[edit]

"In June of 1995 it is said that 58 of these saudi mutaween were shot down and killed by unknown forces; the causes for the shoot out have been discovered that due to their nature of turning people in, one of the family members of the shooters was turned in and hung for unknown causes,as a result the friends and family took matters into their own hands and shoot each and everyone of these saudi mutaween dead,the shooters are unknown and the case remains open today."

I hope this is true but I suspect it is not. It smacks of wishful thinking by some regular Saudi who (quite understandably) hates the Mutawi'in. Do we have any sources for this?

--Lyphatma (talk) 05:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic Meaning of the Name ...[edit]

The Arabic meaning of the word "Mutawwa'" is not "volunteer", rather it carries the meaning of enforcement. The word in Arabic is from the root "ط و ع" which relates to "will".
The variation might not be clear in non-Arabic writings; however, in Arabic the word "مطوع" can carry many meanings, including:

  1. Muttawwe' (stressing the T & W sounds, and with the E sound before the end): Volunteer
  2. Mutawwa' (not stressing the T sound, stressing the W sound, and with the A sound before the end): Enforced
  3. Mutawwe' (not stressing the T sound, stressing the W sound, and with the E sound before the end): Enforcer
  4. Mutawe' (not stressing the T or W sounds, extended A sound in the middle, and with the E sound before the end): Milder Enforcer

The common usage of the word in Saudi Arabia suggests meaning 3 or 4 above. If meaning 1 was intended, then the pronunciation of the word would be different.
There is also a chance that the local dialect is the cause of the confusion.
Fahapro (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't know what "stressing" is supposed to mean in this context, but the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic defines مطوع muțawwaʕ plural muțțawwiʕ as having the primary meaning "volunteer". The only verb participle which could mean anything like "enforcer" would be the stem II active, muțawwiʕ... AnonMoos (talk) 10:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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