Talk:Deathrock

/Archive 1

Beavis

Is it notable to mention that in Beavis & Butthead, Beavis would occasionally wear a "Death Rock" shirt? 72.188.19.104 (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd say no. I doubt Mike Judge knew/knows the difference between Death Rock and death metal. Beavis and Butthead frequently made fun of any Gothic or Death Rock video that was played on the show.Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Not punk

Death rock isn't a fusion of punk & goth. It is an alternative label for Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 12:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

An alternative label for Goth? Have you any idea what you're talking about? Very Old School Goth (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

MALCOMXBLISS (talk) 00:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)== not goth ==

Death rock is not goth in any way .It is a sub genre of punk plian simple it's not any kind of goth .

Some dumbasses who did not know the difference started using them interchangeably way back wen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.118.200.168 (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Death Rock isn't a genre. It's an umbrella term used for American Post-Punk groups which deal with horror and death themes. So listen to 45 Grave. It's a completely other music than Christian Death or Kommunity FK. Furthermore, bands like Screams for Tina, Voodoo Church, Mephisto Walz and others were influenced by the British Goth movement. The Gothrock movement started in 1979 in Great Britain. Bands such as Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees toured in San Francisco, New York and other towns in 1980/1981. They're very popular.

But original Death rock bands released their first albums between 1982 and 1983. The Death Rock movement started three years later and is strongly influenced by the British Goth movement. Like it or not, that's a fact. --Ada Kataki (talk) 00:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The American Death rock scene began independently of the gothic scene in Britian. While most of the American bands didn't get any vinyl out until 82 or 83, THEATRE OF ICE had some cassette releases and toured the LA area as early as 1979. MALCOMXBLISS (talk) 00:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. Bands like Kommunity FK were heavily influenced by the British Goth movement, especially by bands such as Virgin Prunes, Bauhaus and others. Read their interviews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.18.113 (talk) 22:50, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Um, Kommunity FK formed in 1978, long before there ever was a "Goth movement" (that term did not come into use until 1982) and they were primarily influenced by post-punk bands like PiL and Joy Division. Also....Virgin Prunes were neither British nor part of the "Goth movement"---they were an Irish post-punk/experimental band that happened to be liked by a lot of goths later on.

Don't be ridiculous. Just because they formed in 1978 doesn't mean they can't have been influenced by music that came later. Unless a band ceases to listen to any other music at all from the moment of inception, then normally their sound will develop and change over time in response to new influences.--Te Irirangi (talk) 21:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

What is it?

If its not goth and not punk WHAT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!75.7.12.99 (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Bullocks. Deathrock is one part Punk, one part Goth. The end. Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 14:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

- VOSG nailed it on the head. I also recommend putting in the introduction the following sentence: "Deathrock is not to be confused with death metal, the latter being a completely unrelated genre of metal." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.221.31 (talk) 06:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Read Gitane Demone's interviews. She says that Death Rock is a vague mixture between US Hardcore Punk, Gothic Rock, Glam Rock, Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. And she's right. Read also interviews of 45 Grave. They're fans of Black Sabbath. Other influences are Velvet Underground, Stooges and Alice Cooper.

Goths and Death Rock fans of today are a little bit stupid. They think that Goth is a genre without any influence. But since the beginning Goth and Death Rock were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, Punk, Reggae, Blues and Hard Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.28.99 (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Gitane Demone, like Valor, are to be taken with a grain of salt. They're metallers who think they have a firm grasp on the meaning of the word "Gothic". And, being a metaller, you're pretty much immediately disqualified from being in any way Goth. Also, being a fan of Black Sabbath doesn't make your Goth band metal. I'm a fan of The Specials, that doesn't make my Goth band somehow Ska, does it? "Goth and Death Rock were influenced by Psychedelic Rock"? Bullocks. Punk and Goth were the anti-hippie and the anti-disco, respectively, no matter what wikipedia says. Goth came from Punk. The end. Any band that claims to be Goth and is inspired by "hard rock" is full of excrement and doesn't know their arse from a hole in the ground. And reggae? Put down the ganja, mate! Very Old School Goth (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Punk was anti-Hippie, not Post-Punk. And Goth had a strong disco influence. Furthermore Bauhaus was influenced by Reggae, Sisters were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, Cocteau Twins were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, the complete goddamned Goth movement was a part of the 80s Neopsychedelia. Fields of the Nephilim, The Wake, Sisters etc. showed a strong Hard Rock influence. So what? Truth hurts... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.26.55 (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"Punk was anti-Hippie, not Post-Punk." And that differs from what I said how, exactly?

"Goth had a strong disco influence." Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Goth was the antithesis of disco. That, largely, was the point of the original Goth scene. "Furthermore Bauhaus was influenced by Reggae" Clearly, you're baked. "Telegram Sam" really reminds ME of "I Shot the Sheriff". I-fucking-dentical. "Psychedelic Rock" is music for nasty bong sucking hippies. Which has fuck all to do with Goth. Cocteau Twins are about as Goth as The Ramones were Punk. Which is to say, "not in the least". You people and your "rock" fetish. I swear. Everything has to be (something) "rock". And if you remove the rock element you have to attach some new title to it, don't you? It can't be simply "Gothic music" it has to be "Darkwave", right? Bullocks. If you want to bang your head to hicktard music that's your tough shit. God forbid someone creates a kind of music that takes a degree elegance and sophistication to create and/or enjoy because all the Mansonites and Ozzy-douches come crying out of the wood work about how they had something to do with it's origins.Very Old School Goth (talk) 05:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You're a hopeless guy. An absolute peabrain. I only believe in this what established Goth groups say. To hell with all these narrow-minded pseudo-goth fans. They're not better than these fucking mallgoths. Cocteau Twins wasn't Goth? *lol* Sounds this like Pop music to you? You have no idea of anything. Psychedelic Rock is a main characteristic of Goth. Listen to the music of Mephisto Walz. The most of their songs show a Phrygian mode. The Cure and also The Banshees were infuenced by Pink Floyd. It's all stupid "Hippy music". You'll not find any Goth group without foreign influences.

I'm a guy? LOL ok then! Now who's clueless? And I love how you'll site MY band and then tell ME what Goth is and isn't! Classic! Go back to trolling in the Skinny Puppy chat rooms and telling everyone who will listen that you speak german and maybe you'll impress a mallgoth teenybopper rivethead enough to earn a quick snog thus justifying your meaningless existence, "Breathtaker". Very Old School Goth (talk) 23:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Your shitty band can kiss my ass. You have no idea of history, styles and subcultural coexistences. Maybe you're one of these modern, stinky batcave kiddos, ignoring roots and influences. An absolute shrinkhead. There is nothing more to say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.11.43 (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing how quickly discussion of music degenerates into name-calling and sanctimonious proclamations. That being said, Very Old School Goth, you're not the only oldtimer here. I have been both performing and writing about this music for over a quarter of a century. Your closemindedness apparently has led you to assume your own musical preferences somehow change facts in the greater musical world beyond your own circle. I could patiently explain where and how many of your assertions are incorrect, but it seems your lack of general music-history knowledge might make it hard to get across to you. Nonetheless I'll tackle a few. The other poster was on the right track in terms of looking at what the actual original bands had to say. Do you never read interviews? Even the most casual fan of the original goth founders---the Banshees, Cure, Bauhaus, Joy Division---pretty much grasps their influences, which are fairly wide ranging, but certainly '70s glam, art-rock, and psychedelia are major elements. Even funk (Bauhaus and JD), and yep, reggae too are all there. You scoff at the guy who mentioned reggae, that just indicates ignorance, or did you never hear David J from Bauhaus explain how "Bela Lugosi's Dead" came from the band's jamming on dub reggae, not to mention the dub reggae bass work on "She's in Parties." Examine the cover songs all of the above bands did, and you'll get a sense of their earlier rock influences. Music is a continuum, not a rigid set of walled-off genre ghettos. As for "Cocteau Twins are about as Goth as The Ramones were Punk. Which is to say, "not in the least"," I am not sure if you were attempting a bizarre joke. There were few records in 1982 that came as close to the quintessential essence of goth music as the first Cocteau Twins album. The second part of your statement is nonsensical, as the Ramones basically invented punk music. That would be like saying, to use your reference of ska, "The Skatalites" are not in the least ska." Or "Louis Armstrong is not in the least jazz." Or "The Sugarhill Gang is not in the least hip-hop." You get the idea (I hope). I suggest everyone calm down and defer the personal attacks, and for those who find all this talk of influences perplexing, do some actual reading and research instead of talking out of personal preferences rather than actual history.Greg Fasolino (talk) 01:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC) Bauhaus was influenced by reggae She's in Parties has a reggae breakdown and Bela Lugosi's dead has the same drum sound used in dub reggae. Fonz

It's not that amazing, really. Breathtaker is a twat, as anyone who has dealt with him in the past will attest. First of all, I've never claimed to be "open minded". That trait is for people who are not firm in their beliefs and convictions. So, yes, I am very narrow minded. Especially when it comes to music. And anyone who says that Goths are supposed to be open minded has never met one. As for music, influence is meaningless. I've been influenced by Marliyn Manson. Hearing his work has "influenced" me to not make shitty music. Does that mean that crappy shock rock/metal disguised as Goth is one of my influences? Does that mean that pseudo-Goth should go into my bands' desciptions? Also, I enjoy the music of Sloppy Seconds. Does that mean that "Junk Rock" is, somehow, responsible for the music I create? Hardly. All music can be cheapened by saying "that artist has been inspired by all these other genres, so their music genre is nothing but a mishmash of all of the music they've heard before taking up a violin or a guitar". Is Bauhaus Goth or is it merely a collection of all their influences? And if it's the latter then what's the point of calling any music Goth? And if they don't SOUND like reggae then why bother even mentioning it? They sound nothing like reggae so, no, their music is not influenced by reggae. The artists? Maybe. But the music itself? Not even remotely. Yes, I am aware of the popular history of Goth. That doesn't mean that I agree with it. I don't agree that Valor should ever be called Goth. I don't agree that Goth and Industrial should be played on the same club night (as do most DJs, they never played Goth anyway because Sisters and Cure don't qualify) and I don't agree that Goth and rock belong together. I believe that rock is generic and cheapens anything that it touches. I believe that the rock aspect of Goth needs to be flushed and forgotten. I don't believe that Industrial music is any different than listening to a dying rhinoceros with tourettes. I don't believe that EBM has any place in the Goth scene. Ever. Just because something is agreed upon as the factual history of Goth doesn't mean that I have to or will agree. As for the Ramones? Love their music. But Punk? Listen to them. What, exactly, about the music of The Ramones qualifies them as Punk? They're like Blondie. Everyone calls them Punk but I can't think of one single reason that they deserve to thought of as such. Same goes for The Cure or Cocteau Twins being called Goth. What makes them Goth? Do they sound Goth? No? Then stop calling them Goth. They sound like dark pop to me. And, yes, anything related to hippies is rubbish. Up to and including "psychedelic rock". When so many of the old Punks were out in the streets kicking the hell out of the flithy hippies that refused to die out I don't see why Punk's illegitimate child should be pretending thier very existence is copacetic. Because it isn't. Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats. Hippies - colourful filthy vagrants who can't use soap. I'm failing to see the similarities here. Very Old School Goth (talk) 04:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC) What qualifies The Ramones to be punk? They created the 30 second song they played fast and hard for their day. They took Rock n Roll and stripped it down to the bare minimum, they didn't care if anyone liked their music. They are the essence of punk. I can't believe I have to explain this VOSG your fucking retarded stop listening to music. Fonz

Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats

You're not from this world, sweetie. *lol* Your fantasy world is absolutely irrelevant. Your shitty POV is absolutely irrelevant. There are reliable sources. History, interviews and also genre characteristics. And there is nothing you can do to change the truth. Btw: Greg was the guitarist of The Naked and the Dead. And i absolutely agree with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.17.125 (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

"There are reliable sources. History, interviews and also genre characteristics."

Anybody know WTF this guy is talking about? Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats sounds spot on to me.76.181.245.252 (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Show me the dark elegant Victorian aristocrats of the 80s and the early 90s. In the heyday of Goth there were no dark elegant Victorian aristocrats. It's all in your mind, kiddo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.17.125 (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Save your breath, ladies and gents, there is absolutely no point in debating with someone who takes prides in ignorance and closemindedness. It's a useless endeavor, you'll only fume. And you are absolutely correct, nobody at all in the original goth or deathrock scenes dressed like elegant Victorian aristocrats, nor had that mindset. That sort of fashion came waaaaaaaaay later. But don't expect VOSG to grasp this, she is in her own world divorced from historical facts. Greg Fasolino (talk) 18:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

"Show me the dark elegant Victorian aristocrats of the 80s and the early 90s." Apparently, you're too dense to realize you're talking to one.

"nobody at all in the original goth or deathrock scenes dressed like elegant Victorian aristocrats, nor had that mindset. That sort of fashion came waaaaaaaaay later." What's it like to live under a rock?

I truly appreciate the delicious irony of being preached to about open mindedness by someone who's unrelentling jackassery has gotten their main account, as well as several sock puppets, indefinitely bannded from editing wikipedia and has now resorted to IP hopping in order to avoid said ban. Bravo.

I realize that most of you concert shirt/black denim wearing weekend warrior Einstürzende Neubauten loving "goths" don't like to admit to being complete and total poseurs. That's fine. Live in denial. But the fact is, no matter how old you are, you're never too old to be a wannabe. And you're living proof. Very Old School Goth (talk) 00:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure who you are directing this too, VOSG, but I've never used a pseudonym, or been banned. My name is Greg Fasolino and I am not afraid to back up my commentary. Never been called a poseur or a wannabe before (wannabe what, exactly, I'm not sure, I've gotten enough accolades for my contributions to the early scene and don't need anymore). Being as though I was a part of the scene in the early '80s, and have been writing about it observantly ever since, I doubt very much I've been living under a rock. Maybe you didn't parse what I said carefully enough. I am talking solely and specifically about the BEGINNING of the goth/deathrock scene, the original scene, the first half of the Eighties. I was around then, I went to the clubs and the shows, I read the zines (and published my own) and interviewed the bands and danced all night to the music. I saved all those things, and also took a lot of photographs. And the fashion then, the ORIGINAL fashion, was nothing to do with Victoriania and elegance. It was about big teased hair and Aqua-net, fishnets, black pointy boots and ballet slippers, leather, mesh shirts, warpaint on cheeks, animal bones and crucifixes, and many other things, but it was more macabre and tribal and punky than elegant, and the "Victorian" thing was nowhere to be found. That did not take hold in goth fashion until the late Eighties or even the Nineties. So go ahead, tell us your real name, and show me a photo of a bunch of goths or deathrockers in the early Eighties, who look Victorian. Show me a photo of Siouxsie, or Andi Sex Gang, or Robert Smith, or Jaz Coleman, or Rozz Williams, or the guys in UK Decay or Specimen or ASF, circa 1980-85, where they are dressed Victorian? Show me a photo at the Batcave in London in 1982-83 where anyone is dressed that way. If you cannot, then maybe stop spewing ignorance.Greg Fasolino (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

VOSG can never be a Goth from the 80s. IMO it's a latecomer and an ignorant bigmouth from the late 90s. In the 80s it was a heterogenic Post-Punk and Post-Industrial scene. People listened to different stuff, including Gary Numan, John Foxx, DAF, Neubauten, Neon Judgement, Nitzer Ebb and Skinny Puppy. Most of these groups and solo-artists were Post-Punks with synthesizers and an avantgardistic background, nothing more. But people like VOSG can't see the connections between the genres and subcultures and their roots in Post-Punk music. Absolute shrinkheads. And no, i'm not Greg, dear VOSG. How you can see, my English is crappy like hell, because i'm not a native English speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.9.155 (talk) 08:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

"After the waning in popularity of post-punk, the subculture diversified both musically and visually. This caused variations in the "types" of goth. Local scenes also contributed to this variation. By the 1990s, Victorian fashion saw a renewed popularity in the goth scene, drawing on the mid-19th century gothic revival and the more morbid aspects of Victorian culture." Dave Vanian, anyone?

Do you kids think you can keep the petty squabbling to your talk pages? This isn't the place for it.

94.134.9.155 is the banned "Breathtaker" in question, not Greg.

VOSG, Greg, 94.134.9.155 this is all POV bickering and name calling. Try to calm down. I'm sure in some way, all three of you are right. The scene differs greatly from city to city and country to country. Where I live there were countless victorian goths running around in the late 80's and early 90's. But there were also plenty of Jonny Slut clones and Ian Curtis worshippers. It's no big deal and certainly no reason for the three of you to get your panties in a wad. VOSG sounds very closed minded. But in a way, you all do.

Chillax, playas. Dino Orphan (talk) 17:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I recall that the wearing of 'victorian' clothes started in the early-mid 1990s, 93-95. It seems to grow from people dressing like Dracula (as played by Bela Lugosi), then branching into female characters of the same story. This was in Boston, if not elsewhere. But I would label this as more 'goth' than 'death rock'. Anyhow, the point is this came roughly halfway between the dawn of deathrock and the present, it is neither 'old school' or new. Bobkeyes (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Dino, and I am quite relaxed. I spoke up originally last week in an effort to cool the conversation down and let some steam out of the heated rhetoric. That being said: I'm not a kid; I will be 45 years old this June. While it might be "no big deal," some people do take pride in learning and knowing about music history, and you can't expect them to not call out ignorance and closemindedness when it arises. There is opinion, and then there is evidence. That's why Breathtaker and I asked VOSG to cite a single photo to back her theory. You said "Where I live there were countless victorian goths running around in the late 80's and early 90's." Well, I don't doubt that's true. I never said anything to indicate that that style was not prevalent or even dominant later on (certainly nowadays it's what the average joe associates with goth fashion). But... The "late '80s" was almost 10 years on into goth history. A decade is a long time with something that can move as quickly as fashion. My point, which is not an opinion but direct observation, being that I was actually there (and visited London at the time, and had friends on the West Coast who showed me their photos), was that in the early days, when goth as a music genre/subculture first existed, this Victoriana was not the way people dressed. So what if this is a small point in the larger history of music? I don't like seeing things misrepresented. You make a good reference in Dave Vanian; he might well have been one of the first to dress that way circa 1985, and undoubtedly had an influence. But he didn't dress that way in say, 1982, and his Victorianish look was not the norm in 1985 in any goth scene. The reason we (I say we as in myself and the other posters) debated VOSG was because she asserted that this Victorian style **defined** goth, which surely, you must admit, is a nonsensical statement, if it was not the original style of the genre's adherents, but something that came to dominate it in a later era. Greg Fasolino (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

A Goth with an eclectic fashion style (including Victorian elements) is not a Victorian aristocrat. And this is NOT POV. Until the mid-1990s, Goths were Post-Punks with punky, back-combed hairs, undercut, crimpers, New Wave fashion and a few medieval elements, such as Pike shoes. Show me a pic of a Victorian aristocrat. This is a phenomenon of the late 1990s/early 2000s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.3.50 (talk) 19:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Jebus tap dancing Christ nobody's talking about "EGA"s. Yank the pole out of your poop chute. Claiming the term "victorian aristocrat" can only apply to EGA fashion is /drum roll... POV. The goths I know that endulge in gratuitous snobbery and wear victorian fashion like to think of themselves as aristocrats. Or "nightfall's dark aristocrats" or what ever SNL Goth Talk phrase they used. We always just called them funeral fags (lovingly, of course). Not a big deal. You're quarreling over semantics. People used the word "aristocrat" long before Mana came long. Again? Buddy? Pal? Frankie says "RELAX". I'm guessing we're all over 30 here? Over 40, perhaps? You're going to give yourselves strokes. It's just music/ music fashion. In another 20 years nobody will care. They'll be selling some Alien Sex Fiend, The Naked and the Dead and Faith and the Muse mix CD on a K-Tel infomercial at 3 in the morning and you folks will start throwing your creamed corn at each other and soiling your depends over whether or not they should have included that Rasputina track. Breathe! K? Dino Orphan (talk) 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Dino, I will admit I have no idea what an EGA is; I don't try and assert my knowledge in areas I don't have personal experience with, and goth of the '90s and beyond is not something I am in any way, shape or form an expert on. You guys can debate that however you wish, I have nothing to say on the matter. But I do know a great deal about the early and mid-'80s scene, and I see no reason why I should not speak up when that original scene I was involved with is mischaracterized. For what it's worth, the main Goth music article here on Wikipedia once featured a 1985 promotional photograph of my band The Naked and the Dead as a **example** of standard goth fashion of the original era. [And no, I did not put it up there, only noticed it much later.] We did not have any special look--in fact, we looked much like almost all of the other goth bands of the period. We did not dress like Victorians or aristocrats or anything of the sort. K-Tel? Bring it on. ;) Greg Fasolino (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC))

I didn't read all of the name-calling above, and various proclamations of what is death-rock and what is not. I was prompted to wikipedia and came across this article while listening to my old 'Red Temple Spirits' albums and wondering what happened to the band. "Hey, the band isn't listed in the article! What's up with that?!", and I thought I'd come to the talk section and ask if they should be added. Instead, I find a lot of whining about the meaning of the term 'Death Rock'. Grow up! It's subjective! I started listening to this stuff in 1985 and by '89 I grew tired of the endless arguments of teenagers who had heard a half-dozen bands and thought they knew everything, because compared to the pop-rock of their miserable suburbs, it was so very captivating and different. But below the surface, the roots in other genres are there. Just look at the evidence of covers and club playlists, and read some interviews with musicians. Now, that being said, there are influences that are more present in some areas than others, particularly back before the Internet. Where I lived, in western Massachusetts, the term was 'Death Rock' until the British goth invasion, and then the terms and bands mixed a lot. Eventually, Gothic won out as a term and Los Angeles influenced waned. I moved to Boston, and became so used to the city's Gothic scene and what the DJs played, that I forgot the subjectivity of the term, and started to become bored with the same-old stuff. The increasing presence of music on the Internet enabled me to recover my lost sense of the subjectivity of the scene, and I rediscovered old death-rock (and many other interesting styles). But what really has contributed most to opening of my eyes is attending the Wave Gothic Treffen festival in Germany. There, you see many different genres influencing each other..both the bands and the 20,000 attendees. So, the lesson I have to tell all you squabbling people here is that you need to get out and see what other people are doing. You can only listen to "Theatre of Pain" so many times. Bobkeyes (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Deathrock. -- Paul S (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

---

People on the Rock noir talk page don't think Rock noir merits a separate page and I agree. The distinctions between all these goth and near-goth music sub categories is often very fine indeed, with some even citing the same bands as essential to more than one of them. The other complaint is that Rock noir is effectively an advert for Belladonna since nobody else uses this term (c.f. Brechtian Punk Cabaret and The Dresden Dolls but them. Paul S (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Haha, "rock noir." Silliest thing I've ever heard of and so transparently promotional. Anyway, I think in general music genres only become "real" when they are used regularly and broadly by listeners and journalists, not just the band who coined the term. Hordes of bands throughout the decades have made up pretentious names for their musical styles in the hopes of seeming more original than they are; that doesn't mean factual sources such as Wikipedia need to honor their pretensions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 14:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

No objections. Merger going ahead Paul S (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disagree on merger

I don't understand Paul, why, just because this "rock noir" advert was deemed promotional and too flimsy to merit a Wiki article, should it be merged into deathrock? I have not heard Belladonna, but from the description, it doesn't sound very deathrockish to me. Shouldn't it have been more properly merged into Dark cabaret? I think the current inclusion only serves to muddy the clarity of the Deathrock article, by including something that is not relevant. I recommend changing this. Anyone else? Greg Fasolino (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

How on earth are they Dark cabaret? They have a lead guitar, bass guitar, keyboard and drums. Merging with some other rock-related genre possibly... Paul S (talk) 18:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Dunno Paul, I don't claim to be knowledgeable about dark cabaret or Belladonna. I do know deathrock though, and I don't see a single thing in Belladonna's description, whether in their self-description or how others have described them, that bears resemblance to deathrock. If I'm wrong, fine, it just seems that to be mentioned in an article on deathrock, there should be at least some instances where the band in question should be referred to as a deathrock band or a big influence on deathrock or *something*. If there's an actual connection to deathrock or a real case where the sound/image totally fits, then enlighten us. Greg Fasolino (talk) 00:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

All the Deathrock article says on the subject at the moment is that Belladonna "use a similar term rock noir to describe their album" so it doesn't actually say Belladonna are a noted deathrock band, just that they call their style by a similar name. Paul S (talk) 00:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Fine, but that's not a reasonable justification to include them. This is an article about deathrock, not an article about Belladonna. It's supposed to be only about bands, ideas, events, etc. that actually have to do with deathrock, not about bands that have named their own genre something vaguely similar to deathrock. I don't see how "rock noir" is any more similar than a dozen other genre names, it means nothing in terms of the history of the actual deathrock music genre. To devote space to this band in this way makes little practical or historical sense, and it certainly does not follow Wikipedia's guidelines. Better to spend a few sentences discussing more details about actual deathrock bands. Greg Fasolino (talk) 04:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey men!!! I've just saw the discussion because I was offline for a while... But what the hell! Noir rock is TOTALLY different form Deathrock! talk) have you got the change to listen to Belladonna and their music? And all the music groups playing Noir Rock? It is completely different from the deathrock scene. I also think that it is not fair from you to put the discussion about Noir Rock in the Deathrock page. The discussion should have be done in the right page, so in the Noir Rock page. In this way people supporting Noir Rock would have the chanche to discuss it in the right way. So I will be put again online the page and please if you have any other queries and talk about Noir Rock open the discussion in the right page. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marmartennista (talk • contribs) 19:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC) Thank you for clarifying, Marmartennista, and confirming the fact that "rock noir" has nothing to do with deathrock and does not belong on this page. Accordingly, I have removed this reference. If someone wishes to put it back, provide citation showing an actual connection between the two. Greg Fasolino (talk) 05:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC) Hey guys... what I meant to say is that Rock Noir can't be included in the Deathrock page because Rock Noir is patently a totally different genre and it surely belongs only to its own page.

To prove you my standpoint I would like to draw your attention for instance to these two articles: http://www.battlemouth.com/2010/03/15/the-gilded-palaces-rock-noir-rebellion/ and http://www.adequacy.net/2010/02/new-rock-noir-album-from-rykarda-parasol/. As you can read for yourselves, these two bands, as several others have done in recent years, use the term Rock Noir to classify their music so, Paul S, the fact is that your argument against Rock Noir ("The other complaint is that Rock noir is effectively an advert for Belladonna since nobody else uses this term") it is not at all factually true and therefore sustainable. And tall his complies with Greg Fasolino's sage observation that "music genres only become "real" when they are used regularly and broadly by listeners and journalists, not just the band who coined the term": listeners and journalists are - as those 2 links prove - widely using the term Rock Noir, that's a fact,regardless if it was originally coined by a band or by a jourmalist or by whoever: there's always SOMEONE that coins ANY term, the fact that a human being coined a term does not make that term non-legit, or any term in the dictionary would have to be deemed non-legit.

And - once again - I would like to know the reason why the merger proposal was not put to vote by wikipedian users in the Rock Noir page as it would have been logical - and fair - but in the Deathrock page, the page of a musical genre that has not much at all to do with Rock Noir? Tt might as well has been put to vote on the, say, Ska page or on the Marx Brothers' page for that matter!!

And - last but not least - how on Earth could all the Wikipedian users eventually supporting the validity of Rock Noir needing its own page get the chance to be aware at all of the opened discussion/vote and give their opinion and their vote? If this is standard Wiki practice does that mean that I can propose a merge of Barack Obama's page with, say, the page of some jazz band from Antarctica and have it put to vote on the Antarctica jazz band page??? C'mon guys, that's clearly nonsense!

In the view of this clear facts that I am putting forward - facts that I eagerly await for anybody to courtesly dispute with other facts - please no more totally respectable but ultimately non-factual, and therefore irrelevant by Wiki's standards, personal opinions like "oh, well, I THINK that page is actually an advertisment for a band" - btw that could apply to ANY musical genre, it would be like saying that the Grunge page publicizes Nirvana: OF COURSE it does, but they WERE the most popular movers of that genre, so it is only normal that a page dedicated to that genre highlights them as such!) I feel absolutely empowered to put back online the Rock Noir page that was forcibly removed not on the basis of facts but just on a personal opinion, and put to vote in a section of Wikipedia where no one interested in the soon-to-be-removed page could even fathom how to find.

If you feel the need to discuss the page please do put forward your points on the Rock Noir page and if necessary let us all - the users - decide democratically by ourselves, giving us all a chance to do so.

Thanks so much to you all for your kind attention! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marmartennista (talk • contribs) 06:59, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

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you know what "deathrock" is

Dear Wikipedia, Your section titled "Deathrock" is almost completely erroneous first of all the very band that defines Deathrock is not mentioned Joy Division you described fashion magazine loser bands Interpol, Bloc Party and the Editors as Deathrock ridiculous though probably Nazi the band Above The Ruins is Deathrock, the band Swans swamp trudge are definitely Deathrock, the punks Rudimentary Peni are definitely Deathrock as are Cripple Bastards and Brainbombs are the epitome of Deathrock its good to know nothing is — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.1.144.84 (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC) signed four tildes Raphael Shannon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.1.144.84 (talk) 03:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC) 76.1.144.84 (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC) ye punk raf

Raphael, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are we reading the same article? Are you confusing the post-punk entry and the deathrock entry? You must be, because Interpol, Bloc Party and Editors are not mentioned anywhere in the deathrock article on Wikipedia. They are mentioned in the post-punk revival article. Also, Joy Division were a defining band of post-punk, not deathrock. Read the article more closely. Greg Fasolino (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Origins in regard to "gothic rock" vs. deathrock

This is for the benefit of John. The word "origins" means came from, let's establish that first. A genre cannot have its origins in a genre that is contemporary to it, or that is a related sibling genre. It has to have sprung from the originating genre. On to "gothic rock." Firstly, nobody used that word in 1979 because it wasn't even invented (in terms of referring to a style of music) until 1981 or so. Bauhaus were the fathers of that genre, yes, but their main genre is post-punk. That's what Bauhaus were when they released their first music in 1979. They were only viewed as goth in retrospect. Gothic rock, at least until the mid-1980s, was a term used only in the U.K. and referred only to British bands. If you read this article, you will clearly see that the founding bands of deathrock (originally a California phenomenon) all started in 1979: Kommunity FK (1979), 45 Grave (1979), Christian Death (1979). These bands were CONTEMPORARIES of Bauhaus, not descendents. These LA bands all began ("origins") out of the West Coast punk rock scene and were also influenced by the original post-punk wave (PiL, Banshees, etc.). So, there is no way that "gothic rock" (a genre of the 1980s, likewise descended from post-punk) can be an "origin" for deathrock. The two genres eventually blurred together, but we are delineating origins here, not future developments. Deathrock and gothic rock are siblings, one in LA and one in the UK. I hope this explains why I keep reverting this. By the way, no offense, but were you listening to this music back then? I was, and in the early to mid-1980s, if you mentioned the word "deathrock" you were clearly talking solely about the California bands that had emerged from the punk scene. Gothic rock was something similar from England (only used in the US after 1983, before that it was just called post-punk, and considered part of that genre), but certainly not the former's "origins".Greg Fasolino (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Deathrock was started after, was inspired by, and sounds very musically similar to Gothic rock. Pretty much every deathrock artist or band has been associated with the Goth movement as well. In fact, (as I've seen from some on this talk page as well as elsewhere) some people don't even know the difference between the two genres. Deathrock is basically a harder, American version of Gothic rock. John Weiss (talk) 17:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, I can definitely see where you're coming from, but Gothic rock was first used in the 70s to describe The Doors. Now, The Doors definitely weren't "Gothic rock" as it's usually defined in today's terms, but that is the earliest known mention of the term. It was then used in the late 70s by critics to describe Joy Division and Bauhaus. Certainly it was more common in the UK, but it still had influence in the US. Deathrock was basically the American version. It's no doubt even darker than usual Gothic rock, and can be considered it's own subgenre. Now, not all deathrock bands came from California. That's where it started, but it did spread with bands such as Samhain (New Jersey) and Fields Of Nephilim. Even if the term "deathrock" gained popular use in the US before "Goth rock", Gothic rock still predates deathrock as a musical style. And, I wasn't even alive back then. I do feel somewhat guilty because you were, so you would have actual experience of the scene first-hand. But you can hear the influence of Bauhaus on Christian Death, one of the first deathrock bands, as well as other members of the scene. I do respect your opinion, but I disagree with certain aspects of it. No offense to you personally. John Weiss (talk) 17:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Deathrock was started after, was inspired by, and sounds very musically similar to Gothic rock. Pretty much every deathrock artist or band has been associated with the Goth movement as well. In fact, (as I've seen from some on this talk page as well as elsewhere) some people don't even know the difference between the two genres. Deathrock is basically a harder, American version of Gothic rock. John Weiss (talk) 17:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC) John, if you read what I wrote above, you will see that your statement "Deathrock was started after, was inspired by, and sounds very musically similar to Gothic rock" is incorrect." All three of the main original deathrock bands started in 1979. The first Bauhaus album (to use a band you cited) was not released until 1980. Also, 45 Grave in particular did not sound anything like Bauhaus and were not influenced by them. Check this video out and you will see they sound absolutely nothing like Bauhaus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q48Ebu3rExE

"Pretty much every deathrock artist or band has been associated with the Goth movement as well"---well, as I also explained, that's because they are sister genres and are clearly related closely, both being darker variations of post-punk. That still does not mean deathrock ORIGINATED from gothic rock. Deathrock also clearly derived more closely from California punk rock---45 Grave's and Christian Death's early releases circa 1981 are clearly on a close continuum with more standard punk/hardcore bands of that scene (thus Germs drummer Don Bolles being in 45 Grave, and Adolescents guitarist Rikk Agnew founding Christian Death). The 1981 "Hell Comes to Your House" compilation featuring both of those bands alongside West Coast punk bands like Social Distortion and Legal Weapon is instructive.Greg Fasolino (talk) 17:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

John, whatever reference was made to the Doors, has nothing to do with what was referred to as gothic rock in the 1980s, any more than early references in the 1960s to "death rock" have anything to do with the later actual genre we are discussing.

"It was then used in the late 70s by critics to describe Joy Division and Bauhaus" No, the term did not come into wide use in the UK until circa 1982, and even then, it battled with other terms like "Batcave", "doom rock" and "positive punk" until finally becoming the standard term. As a fan and musician of this genre (a 1985 photo of my band, The Naked and the Dead, was for a long time used here on Wikipedia as the main image for the gothic rock article), I can assure you, the word "gothic rock" had almost zero influence in America until 1985. LONG after the California deathrock bands had their day. Here in New York, we called it post-punk until 1983-84 when "doom and gloom" and "Batcave music" became common terms. "Gothic" did not take over as the preferred term until 1985.

"Now, not all deathrock bands came from California. That's where it started, but it did spread with bands such as Samhain (New Jersey) and Fields Of Nephilim." Fields of the Nephilim are purely, 100% a gothic rock band and have zero to do with deathrock in any way. Samhain are indeed very similar to the California bands, as they likewise sprang from punk/hardcore, but Samhain has nothing to do with gothic rock or the British bands. You are mixing up some very different and unrelated things here.

"Gothic rock still predates deathrock as a musical style." No, it doesn't, for all the reasons I cited.

"And, I wasn't even alive back then"---I was, and I was listening to all of this music, and playing in a band influenced by all of this music, at the time. I take no offense. Bauhaus and Christian Death do have some similarity, yes, but as I mentioned, Christian Death formed in 1979, long before Bauhaus were prominent. I would suggest that their similarities in sound are more to do with shared influences (Bowie, especially) than a direct descent from one to another.Greg Fasolino (talk) 17:59, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

We're not discussing the terms that were used though. Even if it wasn't called "Gothic rock" in the US during the late 70s, it was still the same style of music. Fields Of Nephilim definitely can be considered deathrock due to their more aggressive and darker sound than regular goth rock. And yes, Joy Division may not be considered goth, but they are one of the first bands to be called such. I Am A Sandwich (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

But now that I've put some research into it, you're obviously more knowledgeable of such things. So instead of putting gothic rock in the stylistic origins section, I feel that maybe a good compromise would be to mention the similarities between the genres in the article. But I feel it's naive and pointless for me to argue this any further since you were actually a part of the scene. Thank you for your musical contributions. I truly do enjoy this style of music, and it's pretty cool that you were a part of it. I Am A Sandwich (talk) 23:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC) Thanks for your considerate reply, John. I can see some of your points; yes, Joy Division can be considered both post-punk and proto-gothic when one looks at how the genre name is used retroactively. I can't agree on Fields, though. In fact, I would considered them on the exact opposite end of the spectrum in terms of being everything deathrock was not. They had no punk influence and were clearly derived from the Sisters of Mercy, whose style (which was VERY different that both the US deathrock bands and the original UK post-punk/goth bands) took over the scene from 1985 onwards. Deathrock is a specific kind of sound and visual look, derived from punk and horror. Fields is something else entirely, cowboys and long hair and aesthetics that harken more back to '60s and '70s rock. Listen to 45 Grave or "Only Theatre of Pain" and look at how those bands looked, and then listen to some Nephilim and look at their appearance...it's nothing at all alike. I like Fields, but unlike Joy Division, they aren't deathrockish at all.Greg Fasolino (talk) 03:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Most Death Rock albums didn't appear before 1981/82. Siouxsie & The Bansees' Scream album was published in 1978 (on early concert flyers you'll find the name variation "Suzie & The Banshees").

And then... Nik Zedd's movie "They Eat Scum" appeared in 1979. The movie shows an imaginary Death Rock band called Suzy Putrid & The Mental Deficients. That cannot be a coincidence. If you see Suzy Putrid, the front girl of the band - she looks like a Siouxsie groupie. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 13:35, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

PS: Concerning C.D.: The year of foundation isn't that important. We don't know the music of Christian Death anno '79. We only know the music from 1982 and later. And that's what counts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RivetHeadCulture (talk • contribs) 14:10, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

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Where are the sources for the bottom two thirds?

This article is interesting and all, but is seriously lacking in the verifiability department.

2601:646:8181:34BA:78D7:4624:BCB:EF42 (talk) 05:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Deathrock / Death rock

Most commonly written as two words according to books and music magazines (e.g. SPIN magazine May and October 1985). --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 10:40, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

"Zombina and the Skeletones"

Why are never-heard crap bands like this listed alongside legends of the genre, especially since they were founded like 40 years after the genre started and blossomed...?