Talk:Ancient Greek religion

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2019 and 15 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RachelKWalsh. Peer reviewers: Camsara99.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Aristotle was a Pandeist?

Right now this article makes the claim that "Plato's disciple, Aristotle, also disagreed that polythiestic deities existed, because he could not find enough empirical evidence for it. He was a pandeist, believing in a deity called the Prime Mover, which had set creation going, but was not connected to or interested in the universe." This is wrong to a comic degree. The school of thought inhabited by Aristotle had nothing to do with Pandeism. Pandeism is a combination of aspects of Pantheism and Deism, vis, a belief that there was a Creator of our Universe which in fact became our Universe through the act of Creation, and could hardly, hardly be described as "not connected" to our Universe. This idea was part of the school of thought of the Milesians, but was not picked up in the Platonic or Aristotelian traditions. Even the traditional providential entity of Classical Deism might not be uninterested in our Universe, though it is surely classed as noninterfering in it. Nor is it correct, I think, to claim that Aristotle called the deity of his model "the Prime Mover" as if that were some sort of proper name. My recollection is that Aristotle fell into the school of Emanationism, hewing to an unnamed Prime Mover. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:24, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

What's missing is a section on the ancient Greek language for the concepts related to what we moderns call "religion"

All the comments made by Akhilleus are most relevant and pertinent.

Quite a few Greek words are mentioned "en passant" in the body of the article, but Greek being for us primarily an ancient language, there's a need for a thorough section explaining the key words used by the ancient Greeks to talk and write about what we, moderns, call religion.

For instance: theos, theology, εὐσεβής, εὐσέβεια (eusebeia), σέβω, σέβομαι, θεοσέβεια, anosioi, asebeia, bebelos, θρησκεία (threskeia), θρήσκος, ethelo, εθελοθρησκεία (ethelothreskia), ἐκκλησία, ekklesiastikos, kyrios, Θρέομαι, deido, δειλός, daimon, δεισιδαίμων, deisidaimonia, δεισιδαιμονεστέρους, pistis (faith), pisteuo (believe), philao, agape, Χριστός (anointed), τινα, προσήλυτος, blasphemia, episkopos, hairesis, orthodoxein, etc.

Of course, the key Greek words used by the Septuagint and the early Greek writers who preached the new cult of Christ, should be included as being part of the language of ancient Greeks related to our modern concept of religion.

A separate section could theoretically be set up for the Greek language of the early Christians, but I think this would be unfair, and in fact unscholarly.
When they lived and were writing their epistles towards the end of the first century (Paul, Hebrews, James, John, Peter, and Revelation), they never were or thought of themselves as a special group, they were using the Koine language of their time and culture, which was the ancient Greek language of the first Century, and the same as used by other writers of the same era.
Second century Christians, although a little more conscious of their distinctions, were still using the common stock of ancient Greek words. Even when they tended to give a slanted meaning to some of the words, creating a kind of jargon for the new cult. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

"The Five Stages of Greek Religion", by Gilbert Murray, is nowhere mentioned

This is truly astonishing, a failure, not of nerve, but of scholarship.
I find it hard to believe such an overlook.
The book is complex, covers a lot of territory, and is in part, difficult to understand and summarize.
But it deserves a mention, in the body, or at least in See Also, References, or Notes. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Plato

I cannot edit this page, but I would appreciate it if someone else could. The article states that, " Plato did not believe in many deities, but instead believed that there was one supreme god, whom he called the Form of the good, and which he believed was the emanation of perfection in the universe." This is misleading at best, and totally false at worst. Plato was certainly a polytheist, and it is likely that he believed that the forms had deity status, *IN ADDITION TO* other Gods. For instance, from the Phaedrus:

         Now the great leader in heaven, Zeus, comes first, driving a winged chariot, imposing order upon all things and caring for them;  
         and the host of gods and spirits follows him, marshalled in eleven sections, for Hestia [goddess of the hearth] alone remains in 
         the House of the Gods. But for the others all that are counted among the Twelve Ruling Gods proceed in due order according to 
         rank, each at the head of his own division.

         Many and wonderful to see are the orbits within the heavens and the blessed gods constantly turn to contemplate these as each     
         busies himself with his special duties. There follows whoever will and can [this includes good human souls], for envy has no    
         place in the company of heaven. But when they proceed to the divine banquet, they mount the steep ascent to the top of the vault 
         of heaven; and here the advance is easy for the gods' chariots, well balance and guided as they are, but the others have 
         difficulty. (Phaedrus246e-247b) 

Plato also talks about the Gods in Laws. He believed in the Demiurge, but that certainly did not preclude other Gods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Somnum (talk • contribs) 19:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Greek religion was neither polytheistic nor monotheistic

Somnum is right, but the problem he has highlighted above is not the only one. This article is a shame for various reasons, first of all because it's made up of a bunch of personal opinions by various users without using any reliable works as source.

The ancient Greek religion, just like all other Indo-European religion was neither polytheistic nor monotheistic. All these categories (polytheism, monotheism, etc.) were unknown to the ancients, being inventions of the 18th century French Enlightenment culture.

The Greeks viewed their gods as powers moving/forming nature according to the Logos, not as material beings residing in the sky; and all the gods and the Logos (Rule, Dharma) were conceived as emanations of the primordial divinity, center of the universe and of all things, that was known with various names: the Monad, the One, the Platonic Form of Good, or the Aristotelian Unmoved Mover, corresponding to the Tat ("That", later Brahman) of the Vedas.--95.236.77.161 (talk) 15:35, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Someone should copy entirely the Italian version of the article, which has been written professionally by experts.--95.236.77.161 (talk) 15:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC) ALL THIS IS FAKE! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.17.233 (talk) 21:37, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Add this See Also

Please add to See Also: Religion in ancient Rome — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.149.221 (talk) 23:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

"Hades" Name Origin

The section on afterlife (among a few issues) sates unsourced that "Hades" the place is named after "Hades" the person. As I understand it, "Hades" the place is the earlier concept, with "Hades" possibly coming from "House of Ais", possibly meaning "House of Invisibility", in reference to the separation between the psyches or eidolons of the dead that dwell within the afterlife and the people in this life. "Hades" or "Aides" is then the anthropomorphized incarnation of the afterlife. This is fairly common as an origin for a Greek god: Hestia/hearth and Okeanos/ocean are also gods named for the thing they are the personification of.

I don't think all of this information is needed in this article, but the false information about the origin of the word "Hades" ought to be removed at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.62.143 (talk) 01:04, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2015

Prmjeet00 (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 12:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2016

i think that more about the forms of practice and prayers that they used. Cuddes888888 (talk) 15:44, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2016

The sacred texts section has various problems. Problem #1: it openly goes against the source it cites. The source says that Homeric texts weren't sacred texts, and then suggests some texts which in antiquity were categorized as hieroi logoi (sacred texts), which were either ancient or foreign, and none of which has reached us. The source then cites a certain number of texts which referred to mysterical traditions, where they were referenced as sacred. The idea that texts beginning with an invocation to the Muses were sacred makes no sense whatsoever, since it is a poetic expedient which remained in use for a variety of texts in the classical era, none of which could be thought of as sacred. Concerning Greek religion there are two things to be said: 1. The lack of a centralised faith system or of a sacerdotal class, since priests were actually servants of the polis or demos or of the sanctuary and only answered to them; this means that there were no brahmins to unify the Veda, no canons for a common Church, and that versions of mythical events could differ significantly without causing schisms, because no one expected an unitary version to exist in the first place. 2. the lack of a sacred, revealed, universally accepted text concerning the nature of the divine and its relationship with the physical world. Some poetical texts were produced to be sung as hymns (lyric poetry) during religious events (like the Olympiads and other festivities). They had a cult element, but weren't regarded as inspired. Tragedies were also part of religious festivals, but they also were never thought of as inspired. And even inspired words spoken by Oracles only had momentary relevance, and were not collected together from different oracles. Finally, while the Greeks did regard the poets as an information source about the gods, they did not believe Homer and Hesiod to be certainly telling things as they were concerning the gods, because their versions exclude each other.

As it is, it would be better if the section would disappear or say something in the lines of: "The lack of a unified priestly class, such as Brahmans in Vedic religions, meant that a unified, canonic form of the religious texts or practice never existed: there was no unified, common sacred text for the Greek belief system. Instead, religious practices were organized on local levels, with priests normally being magistrates for the city or village, or gaining authority from one of the many sanctuaries. Some priestly functions, like the care for a particular local festival, could be given by tradition to a certain family. The local character of worship meant that different, conflicting versions of myths developed in different places and times; an example are the ancient poets Homer and Hesiod, whose genealogies of the gods are incompatible. While some traditions, such as mysteric cults, did uphold certain texts as canonic within their own cultual praxis, such texts were respected but not necessarily accepted as canonic outside their circle. In this field, of particular importance are certain texts referring to Orphic cults: multiple copies, ranging from 450 BC to 250 AD, have been found in various locations of the Greek world. Even the words of the oracles never turned into a sacred text. Other texts were specially composed for religious events, and some have survived within the lyric tradition; although they had a cultual function, they were bound to performance and never developed into a common, standard prayer form comparable e.g. to the Christian Pater Noster. An exception to this rule were the already named Orphic and Mysteric rituals, which, in this, set themselves aside from the rest of the Greek religious system. Finally, some texts called hieroi logoi (sacred texts) by the ancient sources, originated from outside the Greek world, or were supposedly adopted in remote times, representing yet more different traditions within the Greek belief system. No one of these sacred texts has reached us. (add note currently present in paragraph)."

78.34.36.166 (talk) 14:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Perhaps you can format the request more clearly as a set of bullet points saying Change "text old" to "text new". The editor enacting your request can then sift through the two large paragraphs you've provided above for reasoning. Hope that's sensible. Requests that are short and to the point will be carried out faster. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 23:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2016

Change

Sacred texts

Hesiod's Theogony and Works and Days, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey and Pindar's Odes are included as sacred texts as are other works of classical antiquity. These are the core texts that were considered inspired and usually include an invocation to the Muses for inspiration at the beginning of the work. Such texts, however, were not considered inspired in the sense that they had to be believed by everyone. Plato even wanted to exclude the myths from his ideal state described in the Republic because of their low moral tone.

into

Sacred texts

The lack of a unified priestly class, such as Brahmans in Vedic religions, meant that a unified, canonic form of the religious texts or practice never existed: there was no unified, common sacred text for the Greek belief system. Instead, religious practices were organized on local levels, with priests normally being magistrates for the city or village, or gaining authority from one of the many sanctuaries. Some priestly functions, like the care for a particular local festival, could be given by tradition to a certain family. The local character of worship meant that different, conflicting versions of myths developed in different places and times; an example are the ancient poets Homer and Hesiod, whose genealogies of the gods are incompatible. While some traditions, such as Mystery cults, did uphold certain texts as canonic within their own cult praxis, such texts were respected but not necessarily accepted as canonic outside their circle. In this field, of particular importance are certain texts referring to Orphic cults: multiple copies, ranging from 450 BC to 250 AD, have been found in various locations of the Greek world. Even the words of the oracles never turned into a sacred text. Other texts were specially composed for religious events, and some have survived within the lyric tradition; although they had a cult function, they were bound to performance and never developed into a common, standard prayer form comparable e.g. to the Christian Pater Noster. An exception to this rule were the already named Orphic and Mystery rituals, which, in this, set themselves aside from the rest of the Greek religious system. Finally, some texts called hieroi logoi (sacred texts) by the ancient sources, originated from outside the Greek world, or were supposedly adopted in remote times, representing yet more different traditions within the Greek belief system. No one of these sacred texts has reached us..

78.34.36.166 (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Done, but added as an additional paragraph. -- MorbidEntree - _{(Talk to me! (っ◕‿◕)っ♥)}(please reply using {{ping}}) 05:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@MorbidEntree: Thank you, the first paragraph (the original one) needs reworking because it gives a much less nuanced image of the attitude towards Homer than it actually was across Greek history (what I mean is that it evolved during a long period of time, 1200 years more or less, across numerous cultural and religious movements, which is not signalled yet). I will add a new edit request once I have the new version ready. Have a good day! 78.34.36.166 (talk) 09:48, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

References

Beginning

This article is semi-protected and so I request someone to add this:-

(Redacted), citing this as a reference: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Greek-religion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:281F:8D56:0:0:0:1 (talk) 02:36, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

It is to show when it began — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:281F:8D56:0:0:0:1 (talk) 02:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Contributions to Wikipedia must be written in your own words, not copied and pasted from another source. Please see WP:COPYPASTE for information on this. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:26, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@ElHef: So you can use this: (Redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:281e:8afa::1 (talk)

Still  Not done: You've given the exact same text and reversed the order of the clauses in the sentence. See WP:COPYPASTE § Can I copy if I change the text a little bit? If you'd like to make an edit (or request one, in this case), you need to write the words yourself. Don't start from the wording in the source and try to change it enough to make it different. You'll need to start from scratch and base your writing on the information contained in the source. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 21:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2021

In section Role of women, the first sentence reads:

> The role of women in sacrifices in discussed above.

Shouldn't it be this instead?

> The role of women in sacrifices is discussed above. 46.128.252.3 (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Someone fixed it. RudolfRed (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks, I've made the change. Paul August ☎ 01:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2021

Add a link to Adonia (festival of Adonis) in section Role of women when listing agricultural festivals women were involved in in Athens. It is an interesting and unique example of a religious festival that is not included in the calendar or as respected by the polis as other festivals. BeaAllen2021 (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)BeaAllen2021

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Quote in Belief section

I find it weird to start the first paragraph of the Belief section with a quote that contains no reference to the speaker or the context in which it was given. I agree with its point, that there was not a unified name but the phrasing of it seems very strange to me, especially in such a prominent position. Any qualms on changing this? Kazamzam (talk) 18:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Or attribute it, from the citation. Or put it in a box, which might be best. I'd rather not just lose it. Johnbod (talk) 19:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)