Talk:Menelik II

The image that says "Menelik's campaigns (1879-1889)" is falsified.

Hi, The image that says "Menelik's campaigns (1879-1889)" is falsified. There was no Gondar province that extends to Welkait before 1930. It is misleading. The expansion for Gonder province (i.e. Begemder province) happened on 1941.

I am going to remove the map since it is misleading, and it appears to be added for the purpose of current day land politics (which is killing people). Lets only share facts please. Best regards, Truth gate keeper (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Truth gate keeper Truth gate keeper

References

'Centralisation' Section

I'd recommend someone completely revise the 'Centralisation' center of this page. It has very evident biases, does not give proper context to events [references the last major war in Ethiopia as having been in the 16th century... and says tactics hadn't much changed from there??? This is incorrect, see 'Zemene Mesafint'. This period of constant warfare undeniably brought many changes to Ethiopia which should be explored in more depth. It also depicts Ethiopian wars as much more petty than they actually were. True geo-political motives are not mentioned or considered and should be, otherwise this falls largely into the trope of pointless 'tribal wars'. While on an individual level, conflict may have been about gaining trophies, ritual requirements, and looting goods - there was an undeniable other reason for warfare: political incentives, desire of certain trade routes, power, etc. 'Lords' were often driven by these desires - economic, geopolitical, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HiddenHistoryPedia (talk • contribs) 23:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Aanolee massacre

There is an editorial dispute about the 1886 Aanolee massacre. If you disagree with the sourcing and text in this version, which seems to be identical to the version prior to the edit war, then please explain what is wrong with the sources. Two alternative sources that have been suggested include zahabesha and Borkena (federal government news media). If these sources are serious enough, then WP:NPOV might be justified. Boud (talk) 01:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The references are not the easiest to use.

• Abbas Gnamo's African Social Studies Series book is paywalled, although there's a quote in the Mohammad A. 'opride.com' article.
• Mulualem Daba Tola's article is published by a predatory publisher and presents views for and against the claim of cutting off men's right hands and women's right breasts.
• Rosa Abadir's zahabesha.com article doesn't seem to say anything about the hands and breasts being cut off (except for the comments section).
• Getaneh Yismaw's borkena.com article argues (using the spelling "Anole"), stating the names of several people making apparently public comments on the issue, that cutting off women's breasts was a hoax created by the TPLF to stoke hatred.

WP:NPOV-ing the current text (not deleting it) may be justified, but others should look through the sources, and maybe find better sources. The Abbas Gnamo book seems the most serious, as the only academic source. Boud (talk) 02:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Abbas Gnamo says that his book was "based on extensive research undertaken over two decades" and that "the review process and the preparation of the final text took more one and half years." He claims that he "examined all the available sources in Ethiopian languages, foreign languages (including French and Italian) published and unpublished academic sources, theoretical works, and above all, oral data collected over a long period of time in Arsi-Bale regions from Amhara and Oromo informants." Boud (talk) 02:51, 17 October 2021 (UTC) The second part of the interview with Abbas Gnamo includes a discussion of the Aanolee massacre/mass mutilation and the claims of whether it happened or not, stating that the event "is deeply entrenched in the collective memory of the Arsi Oromo and Oromos everywhere. Some of the survivors lived with the mutilated right hands until the 1950s and 60s. One example which captured my imagination was an Oromo elder who lived with a militated right hand among the Jaawwii clan and who always showed his mutilated hand to the public, and explained how he lost his precious hand in defending their dignity and land." A 16-year-old in 1886 would have been 80 in 1950, and 90 in 1960. Boud (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I added one more reference to a paper by Gnamo Abbas. This is not small stuff; the man obtained his PhD at Sorbonne in Paris! Thank you, Boud for pointing to his interview also. We'll soon have enough materials to write a separate article in addition on the Aanolee massacre; it would be good if somebody could access the corresponding entry in the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica, Institut f. Afrikanistik und Athiopistik, Universitat Hamburg, Germany, 2004. And, I would suggest to Mooproop1: better to face it, so many countries need to face their past. Rastakwere (talk) 15:19, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Aanollee

This is a fake massacre made up by tplf so stop putting it here. Zehabesha and Bokerna are much more reputable than the oromo.com websites you've provided. Menelik saved oromo from colonisation and had a wife and was christan. stop spreading lies. just because oromo region talks about these lies doesnt make them real. they haven't provided any "scientific evidence". it is just a lie to divide the country. i've cited many source proving that. stop spreading lies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooproop1 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

WOLKAIT IS ALWAYS AMHARA GODNAR

Oh yeah and by the way the picture is not falsified. Tigray just stole the land in 1991. Just becaus every single map shows what you don't want it to doesn't make it falsified. It is the map of gondar and welqait was a part of gondar. Deal with it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooproop1 (talk • contribs) 03:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Aanollee

This guy just uses pro oromo websites and all this stuff like oromopride.com this isn't reputable. Many oromo doctors have debunked this myth in my sources. Stop changing and go do something else instead of spreading hate. I've seen your other edits. Just anti amhara stuff. Go do something else or go watch ur tigrai media house stop spreading fake news — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooproop1 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mooproop1: Please read WP:AGF. Wikipedians have patience, but not infinite patience. Understanding and following WP:AGF is one of the fundamental requirements for editing Wikipedia content. Boud (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Why not just lock meneliks wikipedia account? these people keep editing and putting bias sources just let it be the way it was before. why do they get to keep switching it and I can't? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooproop1 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

The reason why others are conserving the status quo of the article is that you have not (yet) engaged fully in the discussion and do not seem to have understood the principles and methods of editing Wikipedia, such as signing with ~~~~, using indenting, and WP:AGF and WP:VERIFIABILITY. You should also use the preview button to check the meaning of what you have typed on a talk page before hitting the save button. People make mistakes, but if you make so many mistakes that others have to guess what you're trying to say, then it's difficult to converge on a decision; for example, you wrote meneliks wikipedia account when what you meant was the Menelik II Wikipedia article.

If you read Talk:Menelik II#Aanolee massacre, then you will see the current state of discussion about the sources. You are welcome to participate in the discussion, but you have to focus on the discussion and present your arguments about the sources clearly, in a structured rational way, seeking editorial consensus based on sources and respect for other editors, and making an effort to understand and discuss the sources themselves. You cannot expect others to do all the work in guessing what you are trying to say. Please read the links (typically shown in blue, but this may depend on your browser) that you have been shown by myself and others. Boud (talk) 05:54, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Gadaa conquests

I'm not sure how relevant this bit on 16th century Ethiopia is to an article about a late 19th century Emperor, but regardless by real problem is that this term is not explained. Gadaa links to an article about a system of government, so it is not clear what is meant by 'Gadaa conquests'. It is like referring to 'democratic conquests' without even saying who the democrats are. LastDodo (talk) 10:03, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@LastDodo: It's not relevant to this article, but Oromo nationalists are promoting Gadaa as a idignous form of ‘‘democratic system’’, someone needs to take a good look at Gadaa article for WP:NPOV. Gadaa conquest only means that the Gadaa system divides Oromos in age classes, and Oromos falling into the warrior age classes are supposed to conquer and kill enemies. It's a barbaric system if you ask me. YonasJH (talk) 10:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not here to take a position on a contentious issue, but if you understand the meaning of the term and the history, it would be good of you to bring some clarity to that section of the article. Most people outside Ethiopia will have no understanding of what it means at present. LastDodo (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@LastDodo: Yes maybe it's should be a subsection background in the centralisation section, but i don't see the need for it to go all the way back to the 16th century, it's kind of crazy if you ask me. I'll work on it when i have more time, and some other editor can help. Thank you for pointing it out, i had to read the whole article to find it. It looks out of place in this article. YonasJH (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok great, I'll leave it with you. Btw 'CTRL-F' and 'Gadaa' would have found it instantly (assuming you're on a PC) :) LastDodo (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic makeup of Menelik's government and forces

@Ozywikieditor I don't believe this was a necessary addition to the page. And per Wikipedia rules this is on grounds for removal, as there is also a copy and paste on the Battle of Adwa page. The title says "Ethnic makeup of Menelik's government and forces" but only talks about the different ethnic and regional groups that served in the army of Adwa. Hence, this is not relevant to the page. Per WP:IRRELEVANT and WP:ANOTHER محرر البوق (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)