Talk:James J. Hill

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Raerose.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

"Many people have accused James J. Hill of being a bloodthirsty
businessman. Such would be true. However, it is unfair to condemn
him entirely."

I wonder how well this conforms to the NPOV? I don't know enough about Hill to say. Maybe the accusation should be made specific enough that readers can judge according to their own philosophies? I suspect that maybe this is parallel to "Many people think Einstein was a brilliant physicist, but it would be unfair to condemn him entirely, since once in 1952 he was kind to a child ... ", etc. -- Mike Hardy

It's not NPOV. Wikipedia is not in the business of saying what is fair, and "bloodthirsty businessman" is a subjective moral judgment. Compared to Bill Gates &co. he may well have been liberal-minded and fair.

And now I've deleted it. If someone wants to say James J. Hill murdered his business competitors or defrauded his employees, or to make some accusation that is specific in its content, that could be consistent with NPOV, but "bloodthirsty" lacks specificity and gives us a verdict without the facts of the case.

The wording at several points in the article should be changed to be more appropriate to an encyclopedia bio. I'll do my best to fix it up myself (as it was I who put the cleanup tag on the article.) Paul 05:36, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

what about references in popular culture[edit]

Like he is referenced in the Great Gatsby here "If he’d of lived, he’d of been a great man. A man like James J. Hill. He’d of helped build up the country.” 107 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.245.14 (talk) 16:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Pacific Railway[edit]

What about Hill's involvment with the Canadian Pacific Railway? Fawcett5 14:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article style[edit]

Can someone please work on this article's style, including re-writing the phrases "His first goal? To expand and upgrade still more." and "To recap briefly". Thanks. --Jason McHuff 19:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see if I cannot help with this over the next month or so. Gyrae (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This paragraph --

An enthusiatic conservationist, Hill was invited by President Theodore Roosevelt invited governor's conference on conservation of natural resources, and later appointed to a lands commission.

is suffering from a typo. Since I don't know this bit of history and both a President and a governor is mentioned, I hope that someone who knows what this means can fix it. Hue White 18:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV Violations[edit]

This article needs to be cleaned up for various glaring biases.

Second that. Highly biased and non-neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.50.100 (talk) 03:47, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Monopoly extent?[edit]

The frequent references to Hill's 'monopolies' don't specify their geographic extent. Did they extend to England, San Fransisco, or was he just the only supplier in a particular town? -The Gomm 23:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good article, but why hyperlink words like "ton" and "percent?"[edit]

This sounds like a cleanup project for someone. Landroo 20:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Links problem[edit]

the links at the end of the Extrenal link list could be considered as spam! Compwhizii 18:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

well, here's a good one that should be added: http://books.google.com/books?id=AHEAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=toc&client=firefox-a#PRA5-PA618,M2 User:scewing —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Sources[edit]

["James Jerome Hill"] gets 117 hits on google scholar, 697 on google books of which 1 is full-view and 256 are limited preview, 102 from all-time in Google News, 5,860 in google search.
["Empire Builder"] gets 8420 hits on google news - including

from the New York Times..--Keerllston 16:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discovery of the Marias Pass[edit]

"The key to the Great Northern line was Hill's use of the previously unmapped Marias Pass first discovered by Santiago Jameson. The pass had been discovered by John Frank Stevens..."

Either it was discovered by Santiago Jameson or by John Frank Stevens... which? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Earwicker (talk • contribs) 18:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Marias pass was rumored to exist but its location was unknown. Hill gave the job of finding it to John Stevens, and Stevens succeeded. I propose removing the claim that it was discovered by Santiago Jameson unless this can be established. See [1] Gyrae (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Muriel E. Hidy, Roy V. Scott, and Don L. Hofsommer, The Great Northern Railway, A History (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2004), p. 30.

please consider a new external link to personal narrative of early financial backers of James J. Hill[edit]

The date of his wife's death[edit]

The section "Death" says that Mary Hill died in 1922, however in "Hill's legacy" it says: "After the death of Hill's wife in 1921 ...". Which date is correct? Pestergaines (talk) 10:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Empire Builder[edit]

James J. Hill was certainly an empire builder. This article focuses more on his railroad empire. This was a considerable conglomeration that included ownership, major shareholdings, or interests in the "Minnesota and Pacific Railroad", "Minneapolis, St. Paul and Sault St. Marie Railroad", "Minneapolis, Lyndale and Minnetonka Railway (Motor Line)", "Aberdeen, Fergus Falls, and Pierre Railroad", "St. Paul and Pacific Railroad", "St. Paul, Minneapolis and Manitoba Railway", "Great Northern Railway", "Northern Pacific Railway/Northern Securities Company", "Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad", "Baltimore and Ohio Railroad", and others.
I would like to expand on his empire but it is so vast that would likely need to be covered in one or more other articles:
James J. Hill was a railroad magnate but that was not all. He had vast holdings in land that included farms that spanned several states, was a philanthropist, conservationist, a banker, and a business magnate in many other areas that included ships like the SS Dakota, the SS Minnesota, the SS Great Northern (1914), and the SS Northern Pacific (1914).
Circa 1867 Hill, along with E.N. Saunders, C.W. Griggs, and John A. Armstrong formed the Northwestern Fuel Company (History of the City of Minneapolis, Minnesota, Part 2 pp. 988), dealing with coal and wood, and he was involved in that until his death.
Controversy: James Hill was not afraid of creating a monopoly. He achieved this in many areas of his business enterprises. Hill, Griggs and Company of St. Paul placed a steamboat, the Selkirk, as competition against Norman W. Kittson's Hudson's Bay Company's International run to Fort Garry in 1871. When the dust settled it appeared that Kittson had won but in fact he and Hill entered a partnership that continued a monopoly with Kittson as the manager.
Forty-four Governors assembled with 500 influential citizens of the United States at the Conference of Governors, that included Hill, and he represented the land section committee of the National Conservation Commission when it was founded. (American Agriculturist Hand Book, pp47).
Hill believed in the scientific and efficient management of natural resources which Gifford Pinchot pursued on a federal level. He contributed to farming, donated 476 acres (193 ha) for the establishment of the Northwest School of Agriculture (NWSA).
Hill imported many hundreds of head of purebred cattle, sheep, and Berkshire pigs. He had farms like the Humboldt Farm, Northcote Farm, North Oaks Farm, dealing with animal husbandry, and leased farms across the country for farming experiments including agricultural diversification and crop rotation. He hired experts to perform feed, breeding, and fertilizer experiments (MN. History).
James J. Hill was also an art expert and owned (Art collection) an extensive art collection. His tendency to monopolize was the beginning of US government controls and oversight. Hill was a member of the Jekyll Island Club (aka The Millionaires Club) that was an association of more than 100 of the richest in the country. The Federal Reserve was formulated here. This is just a little of "James J. Hill", his wealth and empire, as well as the impact he had on the American Northwest. Otr500 (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The page summary claims that Hill was known as the "Empire Builder" because of the "size of the region and the economic dominance exerted by the Hill lines." This is not a neutral p.o.v., as it endorses the disputed idea of "economic dominance," endorsed by some schools of economic philosophy (e.g. Marxism) but disputed by others (e.g. Austrian). Additionally, the name "Empire Builder" was applied to Hill for his role in *building* the Northwest region, financing it and opening it up to farming, manufacturing, and commerce, as described by sources such as the Albro Martin biography (and substantiated by much of the evidence on this page). See [1] Gyrae (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By all means expand upon the article's content; however, I think the information might be better served by being included throughout the article instead of solely within the "Empire Builder" section. Please ensure a neutral POV and coherence of thought in your edits. PS - Nice catch on the potential issues with the sentence on "economic dominance." CopperPhoenix (talk) 23:34, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Gyrae (talk) 23:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
there is no controversy about the "empire" theme. hence no POV. For example Albro MArtin (who fits the Austrian mode) uses the term: "All this made the 'Empire Builder,' as Hill came be to be called, the boss of both G.N. and N.P. and the worthy opponent of Edward H. Harriman for control of all western railroads." Albro Martin (1991). Railroads Triumphant: The Growth, Rejection, and Rebirth of a Vital American Force. p. 70. Rjensen (talk) 01:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Rjensen that "Empire Builder" is not POV. However, Gyrae's suggestion to include the other business ventures of Hill is appropriate. I think there should be a section devoted to the moniker's origin and then expand the chronological sections with Gyrae's material. The biography section should probably be divided into new segments, similar to Rockefeller's page. ex. Early Life - Pre-Railroad Involvement - Opening the Northwest - Family CopperPhoenix (talk) 03:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Albro Martin, James J. Hill and the Opening of the Northwest, 1976.

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Article issues[edit]

  • Sections and subsections
This article is a biography so there is no real reason to have a "Biography" section with nine subsections. Some of the subsections can be "sections". The "Family life", along with "Childhood and youth" subsections, can be placed under an "Early life and family" section. This will need to be done for any cohesive expansion.
  • Marias Pass
There is still confusing and conflicting content concerning Marias Pass. The content:
  • "The key to the Great Northern line was Hill's use of the previously unmapped Marias Pass. The pass had initially been described by Lewis and Clark in 1805, but no one since had been able to find it so Hill hired Santiago Jameson to search it out. Jameson discovered the pass 1889 and it shortened the Great Northern's route by almost one hundred miles. The pass had been discovered by John Frank Stevens, principal engineer of the Great Northern Railway, in December 1889, and offered an easier route across the Rockies than that taken by the Northern Pacific.".
Lewis and Clark "described" the pass that they had apparently read about or dreamed up in 1805. "Hill hired Santiago Jameson to search it out. Jameson discovered the pass 1889 ...", then, "The pass had been discovered by John Frank Stevens... in December 1889...". I would have to look but I don't think there was a 13th month (after December) in 1889.
I can't wrap my head around this anyway I look at it. We can't just add conflicting content to try to be fair, or some other reason that is not presented as such, as it now appears incoherent. I saw where this was commented on over two years ago and yet still confusing. The content concerning Santiago Jameson is apparently in need of being removed or the whole thing rewritten to reflect the conflict. Otr500 (talk) 21:37, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1870, he and his partners started the Red River Transportation Company, which offered steam boat transportation between St. Paul and Winnipeg"
Something is not quite accurate here - it is not possible to run a steamboat from St. Paul to Winnipeg -.[1] Hill and the Red River TC owned steamboats on the Red river, but he may have already had a railhead somewhere to feed it. I'll do some more research before I attempt a correction.

--8tavian (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://library.ndsu.edu/fargo-history/?q=content/steamboats-1859-1871
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