Talk:Takbir

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What about other religions..[edit]

What about other religion? what do they say? Do they have such phrases?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.107.249.39 (talk) 11:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC).[]

There are somewhat similar phrases in some cases (such as "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"), but none with the exact same range of use and connotations that I'm aware of, in Christianity at least. Medieval Christians would generally call out the name of their army's patron saint as a battle-cry (so Englishman would say "By St. George!", or something like that). AnonMoos
Is the Takbir mainly used as a warcry? Otherwise, "God almighty!" might be a good Christian equivalent to "God is great!". gigantibyte —Preceding comment was added at 15:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[]
It's used in a variety of contexts, but I don't see how it's a very close analogy to "God almighty!" -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[]
Straight from Wiktionary: "Adjective, almighty, 1. Unlimited in might; omnipotent; all-powerful; irresistible." This is what I always understood Muslims meant when they uttered "God is great". "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" may be an analogy at times of war, but not for everyday use. - gigantibyte
Yes, the English phrase "Almighty God" has a similar lexical denotation to the Arabic phrase "Allahu Akbar", but "Almighty God!" (as an interjection with an exclamation point) is not really used in the same range of social contexts as "Allahu Akbar" is by Muslims (not in any English-speaking Christian community that I know about, anyway). As an attempt at an all-round general purpose functional equivalent, "Praise the Lord!" might be better (as discussed above on this page). AnonMoos (talk) 22:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[]

2017[edit]

and if we do not look at the usage but what is written...
then, what's about other religions...
After all, Muslims believe there is one God. This is the first pillar of Islam, and is probably the single most important aspect of Islam. This is the same God as People of the Book (including Christians): “And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” — Qur'an 29:46
Despite the possible existing critics against some parts of the bible, there are some texts in the bible which suggest that God is great, for instance “Behold, God is great, and we know him not; the number of his years is unsearchable.” — Job, 36-26
Each book has the specificities related to the context of its origins (some more ancient, some more modern) but I am wondering which one temporally precede which other, because translation might have different dates, or, in others words, Does one book confirm, or clarify the other in any way? Is there any source which deal with such things? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.104.227 (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[]
In plain English please, what are you asking exactly? And how does that relate to Wikipedia? (See WP:NOTFORUM.) nagualdesign 23:17, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[]

Archiving[edit]

This talk page is getting rather unwieldy. I suggest that automatic archiving be installed/initiated, although I haven't the foggiest idea how that's done or by whom. nagualdesign 19:09, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[]

I don't have personal experience with that, but there's info at Help:Archiving a talk page... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:49, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[]
Cheers. I did have a look at WP:Archiving (same page, I think) after posting the above comment, and even got as far as User:ClueBot III (which deals with archiving) but I decided that it was a can of worms, and it would probably be a good idea to leave it to someone who knows what they're doing. nagualdesign 01:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[]
@Nagualdesign: In response to your message on my talk page, I've set up archiving on this page using lowercase sigmabot III. The archive links will come up as part of the talk page header once the archives have been created. Graham87 05:07, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[]
Brilliant. Thanks for that, Graham. nagualdesign 18:39, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[]

RfC: Terrorist war cry[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
  • Consensus clearly exists that the specific statement is inappropriate for the lead, and that it is poorly sourced. As such it should be removed.
  • No clear consensus exists on the inclusion in the lead of a toned down version of the statement that discusses its use in warfare.
    • The question of whether a milder statement could be included falls into two categories of opinions; There also seems to be a strong argument that including a statement on the use of the Takbir in warfare or extremism is giving undue weight to its perceived use in warfare or extremism. Other editors would support a toned-down version being included in the lede, but only after careful consideration.

Acebulf (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[]



Should the following text recently added to the lead section in Special:Diff/970457222/970590728 be included in the article?

It is also a islamic war cry for perpetration of communal atrocities against people of other faiths. Also, all over the world, terrorists use this as a war cry during attacks on civilians and military; similar to as in Charlie Hebdo Shooting or 2018 Liège attack where the terrorists used “allahu akbar”[1][2][3][4] as a war cry.

— Newslinger talk 06:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam. — Newslinger talk 06:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment The proposed text only focusses on modern terrorism, and is not properly sourced: it solely rests on primary sources of isolated events, but not on secondary sources which discuss the phenomenon itself. As it stands, the current way of using sources could also support a statement like "cars of the brand XXX are used by Jihadist terrorists when perpetrating communal atrocities against people of other faiths", with a news source about an attack which happens to mention the car manufacturer. This is the sort of quality you expect when edits are not driven by the intention to improve this encyclopedia, but by socmed campaigns.
That said, good sources about the takbir as a battle cry are easy to find, a Google Scholar search will lead you there[1][2]. But it will also be clear that the use of the takbir as "battle cry" (or its Western perception as such) is not restricted to modern terrorist attacks, but has many historical precedents, including in contexts that do not count as "terrorism", but rather conventional warfare. The section "In Politics and warfare" offers good material about it, and the lead should summarize all aspects of that section, based on acadamic peer-reviewed secondary sources. But certainly, the appropriation of the phrase by modern extremists, and its ensuing perception as such by non-Muslims in public discourse deserve a mention in the lead. –Austronesier (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Add Maybe I should have been more clear. The notability of the abuse of the takbir by extremists cannot be separated from existence of the global right-wing bigot trope that Allahu akbar is "the Terrorist war cry". Peaceful Muslims are harassed, profiled or unduly come under suspicion just for uttering the takbir, the tahmid or just in sha'a llah in public,[5] and that is notable, too. –Austronesier (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment I mostly agree with the above comment, but disagree regarding the idea that the phrase's appropriation by modern extremists deserves mentioning in the lede. It is used "to express resolute determination" which includes its used as a battle cry (as pointed out in Takbir#In Politics and warfare), regardless of whether the violence is terrorist/non-terrorist/legitimate/illegitimate etc. Usually, this phrase would be used by religious Muslims in all activities involving violence, regardless of whether they are offensive or self-defence. It looks like the phrase's use in extremist violence makes up for a very small portion of its overall use; therefore, I believe mentioning this in the lede gives significant undue weight. In the lede, just mention that it also gets commonly used as a battle cry, don't see any reason to mention anything further. — AhmadF.Cheema (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment Definitely not. Describing the takbir as an 'Islamic war cry', where its use is limited to extremist groups who profess to follow a very narrow interpretation of the religion, is inappropriate. This paragraph also seems to violate WP:NPOV in its prose. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 17:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Strongly oppose It puts way too much weight on usage in extremism, compared to the literally every-day usage among almost 2 billion people. The wording is also very disingenuous, suggesting some normalisation of atrocities in Islamic terminology. One could write something very brief, such as "e.g. as a battle cry" after "used ... to express resolute determination or defiance". One could also add that in the Western world it is nowadays commonly associated with that usage, but only if a proper source is given (some linguistic/cultural commentary, not a news article) and the context is extended to emphasise the everyday usage. Tokenzero (talk) 21:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment While I strongly agree with the statement and it's necessity to be included the lede to maintain WP:NPOV and Due, the sources seems to be a bit lacking. I don't think the solution is to remove it completely, but to let be so that other editors can add to it, as this does not violate BLP. - BhaskaraPattelar (talk) 09:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Oppose – there's so much wrong here, I don't know where to begin. For starters: the words war cry are used three times in two sentences in something proposed for the lead, thus of major importance to the article. All right then, so how many times do the four references supplied contain the expression, war cry ? One moment while I tally them all up... one second... almost done... Okay, done; I'm back: the total number of times that the expression war cry is used in all four of those references is: zero. What the editor has done here, is to take some accounts about terrorist attacks, and provide his own spin on what a shouted phrase means, supported by none of the sources. It's hard to take seriously an Rfc calling for a triple injection of a contentious characterization into the lead, supported by exactly nothing. Mathglot (talk) 11:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment As this New York Times article Allahu Akbar’: An Everyday Phrase, Tarnished by Attacks states it needs to be mentioned thin some form that is used by Muslim militants.Just a few references below there are several other references.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 20:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[5][6][7][8][9][]
  • Comment Per WP:LEAD, the "In Politics and warfare" text should be noticable in the lead, currently it is not. Also, it seems logical that "In Politics and warfare" should be part of "Usage" in the article structure, not on the same "level." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Comment Per Austronesier and Gråbergs, include not just the instance of modern terrorism but all instances of its usage in the lead. That being said, not including its usage as a war cry in the lead (as it is currently) is missing out on giving WP:DUE weight to the MOS:LEAD. SerChevalerie (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Oppose, but . . . The suggested version goes too far. However, per MOS:LEAD, the "Politics and Warfare" section of the article should appear in the lead. Would support a toned-down version. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:24, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • I think the proposed wording is quite inappropriate for this article and so oppose for now. I appreciate Newslinger's request for alternative wording and let me come up some and we can then discuss that wording. The article's lead should reflect the rest of the article.VR talk 14:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Strongly support Leaders of the world agree that radical Islamic terrorism is the biggest threat to humanity today. Everyday people should become aware of this threat. The biggest war cry for terrorists in training camps in Pakistan is "Allahu Akbar", which means "There is no one greater than Allah." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shahtirth94 (talkcontribs) 13:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC) Shahtirth94 (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. []
  • Strongest possible oppose firstly, in WP terms this is interpretation of primary sources - which as Mathglot points out, isn't even very accurate and goes way beyond those handful of sources. Going beyond that, having edited many of these terrorist incident articles, what is much more commonly sourced than "the perp said 'Allahu Akbar'", is that "an unnamed witness or two CLAIMS they shouted it", this has happened even in incidents like 2016 Munich shooting - where the perp turned out to be a far-right, Christian convert, and 2016 Nice truck attack, where it has pretty much proven that background noise of truck and victims would have made it quite impossible for anyone to hear anything said by the perp. I don't doubt that there may have been incidents where the takbir was used by perps, but what is certainly true is that the claim, often by a small number of anon witnesses, that the expression was used during an attack has become a journalistic cliche, often dubiously sourced. As the NBC source says "The phrase “Allahu akbar” has become almost synonymous with terrorism in American popular culture" that is probably at least as reliably sourced as its actual use in attacks. Pincrete (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[]
@Pincrete: If there are sources that cover the phenomenon of people falsely hearing Allahu Akbar that might be interesting to cover in this article. Do you know of any sociologists, psychologists who might have written about this?VR talk 15:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[]
No I don't. Except with the Munich attack (where early media assumptions about the perp were very wrong), other claims - including many in the sources here - tend to be dubious, rather than consciously dishonest. "An unnamed witness says", "an unnamed police officer says that unnamed witnesses heard" … … . It's WP:OR on my part of course, but in all the confusion, noise and panic of a violent incident, people who don't know a word of Arabic are suddenly clear about what was shouted? I have heard interview tapes in which the interviewer is clearly leading fairly peripheral witnesses as to whether "Allahu Akbar" was what they had heard shouted. That this was said several times in the Charlie Hebdo incident is better sourced, and possibly on other occasions, "she said he left, shouting, “Allahu akbar, allahu akbar”,… … "She said they yelled “allahu akbar” or “God is great” before running out of the office", but neither of these uses could possibly be described, and is not described, as 'a war cry' and the characterisation of it thus is mainly a media cliche in my experience. If terrorist use is covered at all, it should not be as proposed here IMO. Pincrete (talk) 16:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[]
  • Oppose. The few sources about this usage focused on the term (as opposed to ones that mention it in passing) specifically note that it is overstated and that that usage does not have any special meaning outside of its generally common use as a battle cry. --Aquillion (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[]

References[edit]

  1. ^ "The Globe in Paris: Police identify three suspects - The Globe and Mail". web.archive.org. 2015-01-10. Retrieved 2020-08-01.
  2. ^ "Journalist Sigolene Vinson says she was spared by gunmen because of her gender". NewsComAu. 2015-01-09. Retrieved 2020-08-01.
  3. ^ "Gunman kills three in Belgium attack". BBC News. 2018-05-29. Retrieved 2020-08-01.
  4. ^ "The Latest: Islamic State group claims deadly Belgium attack". AP NEWS. 2018-05-30. Retrieved 2020-08-01.
  5. ^ a b "Allahu Akbar': An Everyday Phrase, Tarnished by Attacks". New York Times. 2 November 2017. Retrieved 6 August 2020.
  6. ^ "'Allahu Akbar' cry at terror drill was scripted, police admit". Frances Perraudin. The Guardian. 11 May 2016. Retrieved 6 August 2020.
  7. ^ "For Some, 'Allahu Akbar' Means Terrorism; Here's What It Means to Muslims". Katie Warren. NBC. 1 November 2017. Retrieved 6 August 2020.
  8. ^ "Frenchman stabbed by couple shouting 'Allahu Akbar'". BBC. 1 July 2016. Retrieved 6 August 2020.
  9. ^ "Attacker yells 'Allahu Akbar,' stabs five in Paris before police take him down". Steve Almasy and Eva Tapiero. CNN. 13 May 2018. Retrieved 6 August 2020.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How can jai shree Ram is war cry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jai_Shri_Ram and Allah hu akbar not terrorist war cry RamTripathi33 (talk) 18:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Oversectioning[edit]

We have a problem with oversectioning at Takbir#Usage_by_extremists. We can't create a new section every time someone uses "Allah Akbar" in a notable event. For now, I'm removing the sections and listing all the notable events in the form, Allahu Akbar has been used in incident A, incident B, incident C etc.

Some of the sections gave details of the events, which again aren't necessarily relevant to this article. The detail of events can be found in the article on those events.VR talk 14:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[]

How can jai shree Ram is war cry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jai_Shri_Ram and Allah hu akbar not terrorist war cry RamTripathi33 (talk) 18:37, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Every single passing mention of Allah Akbar[edit]

Some of the sources in the article contain a passing mention of Allah Akbar (like this) without any substantial coverage of the term or its significance. If we scavenge the web for all such passing mentions the resulting article won't be very encyclopedic. I suggest we limit ourselves to reliable, secondary sources that actually give significant coverage to this topic and have something meaningful to say. This is sort of like how every mention of "cat" in the news doesn't belong at Cat.VR talk 20:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[]

Actually, Austronesier gave a better analogy

the current way of using sources could also support a statement like "cars of the brand XXX are used by Jihadist terrorists when perpetrating communal atrocities against people of other faiths", with a news source about an attack which happens to mention the car manufacturer.

VR talk 04:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]
@Vice regent: I support your efforts to create due weight in the article beyond the lead discussion. Unfortunately, the weight problem does not only concern the massive trivia dumping about perpetrators shouting "Allahu akbar!", but also the lack of basic infomation about the phrase in its original religious context. It is e.g. just mentioned in passing that it does not occur verbatim in the Qur'an, but nothing is said about where it actually is first attested (Ahadith). The section "During the Eid Festival and the Hajj" suggest that the Eid-takbir is only associated with Eid al-Adha, but there's nothing about Eid al-Fitr, and so on. –Austronesier (talk) 10:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]

Austronesier, I agree and I'll try to add stuff. And M.Bitton thanks for clearing this up.VR talk 13:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]

Remove 'Usage in christianity'[edit]

Allah Akbar means "ALLAH (THE ISLAMIC GOD) IS GREAT" so, Arabic Christians can't use it they may use the phrase ILLAH AKBAR as saying "GOD IS GREAT". I want it to be removed. Here are some links supporting it: https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/6044899 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNgdqgduC7Q (the first few minutes in the video explains it) WikiSilky (talk) 07:36, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[]

That idea was pushed in the past by User:Mussav, as you can see at Talk:Takbir/Archive_1, but he did not have any useful sources (and his knowledge of the Arabic language was not as thorough as he thought it was), so the article was not changed. Certainly Youtube videos are not acceptable. Furthermore, Christians have used the word "Allah" -- see here for the latest Malaysian development. AnonMoos (talk) 08:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[]