Talk:Menstrual cycle/Archive 1

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Old Discussion

Are there typically two eggs produced in each cycle, one from each ovary, or just one? AxelBoldt 21:15 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

AFAIK, it's just one, and which ovary produces one is random. If there were two eggs, you'd get nonidentical twins. -- Tarquin 22:29 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

Alternatively one ovary and then the other, I would say. Randomness would be too complex to implement ;-) --FvdP

It's one egg per menstrual cycle (normally - I'm excluding the use of fertility drugs, abnormal FSH levels, etc.). Left or right ovary is as far as anyone knows, random. -- Someone else 02:55 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

How do the two ovaries coordinate this? After all, they are exposed to pretty much the same hormones. "For this month, let's make the following deal: If she eats chocolate on the third day of the cycle, it's your turn, pal." AxelBoldt 04:25 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

There's no left/right coordination involved. It's all ovarian tissue, and it all is responsive to FSH, it just happens to be divided into two (sort of like say the adrenal glands: they don't "coordinate" the amount of cortisol they each produce, they just respond equally to the same stimuli). Essentially, the level of FSH increases, stimulates the production of a follicle, the follicle secretes inhibin, which shuts off the FSH, preventing more follicles from developing. So each month, it depends on whether the left or right ovary is the lucky one to develop a follicle first, shutting the other off. If that's not more rather than less confusing?<G> -- Someone else 06:22 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

Not confusing at all, thanks. AxelBoldt 17:51 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

Ditto. Great explanation, should be put in the article if not already -- Tarquin

Except for false twins when 2 eggs mature at the same time :-)

This said, though the explanation above is very clear to me (I learned that), it is very scientific. Whatabout real life ? I have two ovaries, I feel my body, I talk with my female peers about female stuff; So, I can tell you, I (and many) feel some pain for a couple of hours each time. And each time it's on the opposite side. And each time I wanted to be pregnant, I just waited for the little pain... and there it was ! There's a lot more about menstrual cycle than biological stuff, there are pains, moods, pimples...get real !

Also, it could be mentionned that isolated women such as nons menstrual cycles tend to synchronize.

And this article focuses on human cycle. It would be very interesting to indicate the heat time in animals (or whatever the word is : the fact females of some species accept the males only at the right moment). It is the case for cows, whose cycle is just 28 days as ours...

no mistake ! 21 days for cows !

And, women who are sick or frail because of lack of food, or simply too young (starting age 9-16 ?) or too old (40-55) stop ovulating. Only healthy and able bodies can ovulate.

Also, healthy women who simply exercise excessively are known to stop menstrating while the extreme amounts of exercise continue. --Qaz

My nutritionist says that it's not the excessive exercising; it's the lack of adequate energy. Periods require energy a.k.a food and can be thrown off even if there's just a slight decrease in calories over long amounts of time.

I've heard about the ability to tell which side before. Stick-thin models who starve themselves stop ovulating. Agreed, all the above needs mentioning! please add to the article! -- Tarquin 20:34 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC) (one more thing -- I have heard of women who still menstruate while pregnant -- or at least appear to: I don't know if an egg is actually released!)

there are also a couple of examples when a woman gave birth to a 9 month old foetus, and was discovered pregnant from another couple of months one. So, yes, egg is released.

FWIW: The word for the sensation of pain at ovulation is "Mittleschmertz".

• Actually it's mittelschmerz, literally "middle pain".
  • Actually, it's Mittelschmerz. It's German, so as a noun it must be capitalized. Matt gies 00:58, 30 May 2004 (UTC) Spelling but not capitalization are transferred to English. from your friendly Nitpicker.

The 'scientific' word for the period of sexual receptivity (heat) is "estrus", and animals in which this is a prominent feature are usually said to have "estrous" (adjectival form) cycles rather than menstrual cycles. And sometimes a coin flip produces the sequence HTHTHT <G> -- Someone else 21:48 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

• • • How on Earth do you give birth to a 9 month old fetus?15:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Do cows menstruate, I mean with blood and everything? AxelBoldt 21:45 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

No they don't. *Only* primates bleed.

Actually, bitches (as in female dogs) bleed. I know this because we had to get a nappy for ours so she didn't make too much of a mess. cferrero

Same thing happened to me, definitely dogs have periods. This article is mistaken in that respect.

I've read that cats dont have a menopause -- but I don't know about the blood. -- Tarquin 21:53 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

I saw a cat having her period once. I'm really hoping she wasn't simply bleeding from there... Also, it was a pregnant cat, so perhaps that would actually dis-support the idea that she's menstruating.

Male cats have a spine on their penis. I don't know if it's sharp enough to draw blood, but that's a possibility. 22:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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if most other mammals don't bleed, this raises the question -- why do we? What purpose does it serve? Why have we developed this? I think I'll rearrange a bit tomorrow & put some headings in. But this article is shaping up really nicely! :-) -- Tarquin

maybe primate and humans are just very similar ;-)

The women, the rules and the moon

the researchers for a long time raised the question of sexuality specific to our species, and more precisely the characteristics of female sexuality. The most marked characteristics were the absence of oestrus, the permanent receptivity of the human woman. If there are primates which resemble to us in this respect - especially at species monogamists - that usual, and if is not never marked. An explanation, advanced by Desmond Morris, would be that the woman seeks to keep a man by a more intense and more continuous sexual activity. It was also noticed that the absence of oestrus makes be sure to impregnate his partner, the man must maintain sexual intercourse with it for one period longer than in our cousins. Knight finds these explanations not very convincing. What is marked in the female of our species, he says, is not his constant receptivity, but rather the moment when it is not very receptive - the menstruation. He writes: Despite oestrus loss, hormonally controlled sexual signals are not entirely missing from the human female menstrual cycle. One the contrary, menstruation in human has been accentuated with an external display. It is menstruation rather than ovulation that the human female experiments her behaviour have hormonally influenced to has some degree. Woman lose considerably more blood during menstruation than does any other primate. This shedding of blood, although small, represents a significant loss - has loss which has to Be made good by additional food intake, particularly of iron. The advantage of this has not yet been explained.

(Knight, 1991) menstruation function like a signal. It will say to the men that the woman refuses the sexual intimacy. He notes initially that, if the cycle of fruitfulness is not necessarily related to the phases of the moon - the periodicity of the primates is variable - at the human woman, the typical cycle is about 28,5 days - i.e., that it can coincide very exactly with the lunar cycle. Then, Knight quotes work on the synchronization of periods: certain researchers discovered that when women spend enough time together - in a pension, for example, or a university dortoire, they tend to have their periods at the same time.

than lesbian couple should always mestruate together and that is not the case. Obviously no one has ever care to ask as. --84.190.65.215 23:32, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

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Does being on your period and having sex with no condom higher or lower the chances of getting pregnant?

well, having sex with no condom definitely increases the chances of getting pregnant - not to mention increasing the chances of getting any of a number of unpleasant diseases - though I'm guessing that's not exactly the question? If the question is "are you somewhat less likely to get pregnant when you're menstruating than when you're not menstruating?" the answer is probably.... But a better question would be "Is having sex only when you're menstruating a reliable method of birth control?", to which the answer would be a most emphatic NO. What do they call a woman who only has sex when she's "on her period"? Answer: "Mommy". -- Someone else 04:16, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The previous paragraph (and the main article) both imply that it is possible to become pregnant while one is menstruating (say, in the first week, to be specific). But this is hard to understand, given the mechanism for the delivery and attachment of a fertilized egg. I have not been able to find references elsewhere on the Web to this idea. Can someone provide some reliable or credible justification? David 19:25, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Remember that menstruating simply means "bleeding from the uterus." The usual trigger is the drop in progesterone as the corpus luteum involutes, but there are other causes of hormone fluctuations, and in rare instances the egg may still be around to get fertilized and the zygote may implant despite waning progesterone levels. The reproductive system isn't quite like clockwork. Occasionally unusual things happen that beat the odds (like getting pregnant while on birth control pills). Alteripse 22:40, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Okay, that makes sense. But still, regardless of hormone levels, how can the fertilized egg implant itself when the uteral lining is being shed? And if, by some miracle, it did, how would the egg grow without the nutrition that the lining provides? David 15:18, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I am not a gynecologist and havent taken the trouble to look this up but can guess at some possible scenarios. I suspect the most likely is that the zygote may sometimes not implant for a while despite continuing to develop. Alternatively, as must occur with ectopic pregnancy, the zygote may "implant" or attach or develop unattached without a hospitable endometrium-- in other words, implantation in the endometrium is not always necessary for progression of pregnancy. A third possibility would be that perhaps sometimes endometrial deciduation may be unsynchronized, uncoordinated, or incomplete so that there is enough for implantation. A third possible scenario would involve sperm hanging around much longer than usual, to catch the next egg that matures. A fourth would be premature. Perhaps I am still missing the right mechanism. More authoritative info would be welcome but I don't think we have a gynecologist on board. Alteripse 15:48, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

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"Worldwide, various cultures have experienced varying attitudes toward menstruation. The ?bleeding time? or ?moon time? has been viewed as "sacred" to an impure time, as well as everything in between. Contemporary society views this significant act of ?letting go? as an "unclean" end of the continuum, instead of viewing it as a part of a cyclic process of life and death, birth and rebirth.

Unfortunately, women have come to know and experience menstruation as the "the curse", something dirty and to be ashamed of; an attitude which society encourages and endorses?and which is constantly reinforced whenever broadcast media airs commercials for tampons and medications for PMS etc. Women are constantly being reminded in front of their partners, children, peers and co-workers that they are the weaker sex because of menstruation.

Menstruation, in fact is a time of great intuitive power. This phase is not a time to make changes; however, it is time to reflect on changes that need to be made in the next cycle. Persons who doubt the validity of such statements are encouraged to seek more information about women?s cycles as they are defined and written about by women who adhere to their cyclic nature. There is a wealth of information about this on the Internet. Women need to be aware that the less education that they have about their reproductive and hormonal systems, the more they are likely to be manipulated by an overzealous pharmaceutical industry that stands to profit greatly from their lack of knowledge."

1. This is not NPOV. 2. If reworded, this should rather go into the menstruation article. 3. The last paragraph is strawmanning propaganda for "natural medicines" or something like that. David.Monniaux 00:33, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

" Menstruating women need to be aware that during the post-ovulatory phase of their cycle, their body systems are slowing down; as hormone levels are dropping, the immune system is also inhibited. Medications and other substances may have more of an adverse affect on women?s mental/emotional state than at other phases of the cycle. Since the body is slowing down, it is also important that women slow down mentally, emotionally and physically so as not to put undue stress on themselves. Menstruation is a time of ?letting go? ? not only of the uterine lining, but of mental and emotional issues; it is a time of release ? necessary so that a woman may start a new cycle after her menses has ended on all levels. Menstruation is part of a cyclic progression in women?s lives that honors life and all creation. Women are the human replicate of the Goddess on earth. Menstruating women are the font for the survival of humankind.

During the paramenstrum; pre-menstrual and bleeding phase, women will experience heightened sensitivity, are more aware, intuitive, psychic and powerful. If a woman does not abide with her body?s natural inclinations during this phase, she may experience adverse reactions; such as abdominal pain, migraine headache, depression and irritability."

Some more non NPOV + propaganda stuff. David.Monniaux 00:34, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Menstruation as a new Article

Anyhow, I recommand a new article named Menstruation to include all the cultural aspects as in <nowikide:Menstruation</nowiki>

See "What links here": there are many items regarding the simple fact of "menstruation", pretty far away of a "cycle" -- Robodoc.at 10:58, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Islam & menstruation

Adha does literaly means 'a hurt'! Why did you change the text? Do you understand Arabic? A. 04:42, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand Arabic. I checked several English translations of the Quran and found that they contain different versions of that sentence, but none has the parenthesized inserts that your quote has. I think it is always important to cleanly distinguish between the literal text and an explanation, to avoid confusing the reader. Generally, if you put some text in double quotes in italics in its own paragraph and cite a Quran position afterwards, readers will assume that the paragraph is a literal quote from the Quran; the purpose of my edits was to avoid this mistaken assumption. I hope you can live with the current version of the article. Cheers, AxelBoldt 19:37, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What happens to the egg?

Hi. I just read the main article as well as some associated articles. It was unclear to me what happens to the egg that is travelling down the Fallopian tube but is not fertilized. Does it finishes its journey and ends up being eliminated along with the endometrium or does it stay in the tube and is somehow destroyed? As a matter of fact, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the second hypothesis is what happens, and that the "reabsorption" of the egg by the female organism would be responsible for PMS. Is there any truth in this? You can probably tell that I know squad about the topic, but maybe this article or some of the associated ones could use some clarifying on what exactly happens to the unfertilized egg in its fruitless trip accross the Fallopian tube. Regards, Redux 19:32, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Changes 4/9/05

I noticed that this is a featured article but hope it is ok to make some extensive changes. I tried to preserve all the information that had already been accumulated. In the section on 'Islam and menstruation' I removed a section that had been verbatim taken from another website, but the link to the website has been incorporated for reference. Ekem 17:38, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

stale eggs & mutation

I removed the following recently added sentences here because they may not be correct and were expressed clumsily. I think the ideas may be good, and probably worth including but we need to make it more specific and verified.

already "banked" in the ovary. As all these proto-eggs are present in the body from ((early in fetal development-- not birth)), and wait decades until they are used to create a new human life, this has implications for chromosomal damage. (this is a bit vague) Compare this to sperm, which are created fresh daily. A woman's exposure to radioactivity (including X-rays) and environmental toxin has a cumulative effect on her fertility, arguably more so than on that of men. (I have not seen direct evidence for this statement; is it just speculation or can you cite support?)

It might be more precise and accurate to say, As a woman's total egg supply is formed in fetal life, to be ovulated decades later, it has been suggested that this long life-time may make the chromatin of eggs more vulnerable to division problems, breakage, and mutation than the chromatin of sperm, which are produced continuously during a man's reproductive life. This possibility is supported by the observation that conceptuses and infants of older mothers have higher rates of chromosome abnormalities than those of older fathers.

I'm not so concerned about whose wording we use as that the facts are correct, and not just vaguely "arguable". I cannot think of any examples of environmental toxins causing damage to egg chromatin, and think it unlikely that radiation exposure plays any role in the age-related chromosome abnormalities. I am confident that the latter version is supportable but not so sure about the former. Further facts welcome. alteripse 01:31, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your version sounds eminently sensible to me! I have no further facts to offer. From your technical language, i am sure you have far more detailed knowledge to draw on than I do. Please feel free to insert your changed sentences. Many thanks for your work. BrainyBabe 01:50, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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Least fertile time in menstrual cycle

I would like to see a paragraph on the least fertile time in the menstrual cycle. The discussion always focusses on the most fertile time, never the least. Personally, this is important for me because I have sex with my girl friend only in the one or two days following full onset of menstruation, in the belief that that is the least fertile time. Surely some contributor to Wikipedia has access to some truly authoritative information on this important question. David 18:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, right. Normally, the fertility is around 14 days before the next periods. Or 14 days after the first day of past periods. The key is to see when the middle just is and to avoid this time area. You may note it by several manners

If you take temperature, it will be low for a certain number of days. Then, it will suddently go up by half a degree. Then stay up till the end of the cycle. The ovulation is on the day just before the temperature going up (the last day with low temperature). Of course, you can not guess that day. So, normally, you have 14 days of low temperature (beginning on first day of periods), followed by 14 days of higher temperature (ending on the day just before the periods or first day).

On the previous days before the temperature goes up, the white substance that gets out of vagina will get sticky. If there is no substance at all, sperm survive 24 hours. Not much. If there is a lot of substance, they survive up to 4 days. The ovule survives usually only 24 hours.

So if you make love at the beginning of the cycle, you should feel secure for *less* than a week after the periods stopped. I would say only 5-6 days. No more. As soon as there is white substance, protect yourself. Even if ovulation is 3-4 days later, the sperm might survive long enough, so be careful. So, only 5-6 days of secure time on a regular 28 days cycle. Day 5 till day 10.

Then, your girlfriend may note when the ovulation occur. It is the day just before the temperature going up. Usually, lots of white substance. Sometimes (in particular for those already mom), there is a tiny bit of blood loss. Sometimes, we also feel a bit of pain on one side for an hour or so. The uterus is also different, but most women do not want to check this. The best way to be sure when the ovulation occured is by temperature, but all the other information is good to confirm. After the ovulation, wait at least 3 days. At least. I'd say it would be okay to drop plastic stuff while she has been at least 4 days on higher temperature. If she is on a regular cycle, that should give you from day 19 possibly till day 27. There is normally always 14 days between ovulation and next periods. So, you have 7-8 good.

If she has an irregular cycle, always remember that the second part is the one fixed (always 14 days). The first part of the cycle is the one varying. If she is on a 3 weeks cycle, avoid making love just after the periods for at least 2 weeks without protection, or just make it only once just after the bleeding has stopped. If she is on a 5 weeks periods, yeah, champaign !!! you have 10-14 days fun.

Is that clear ?

Anthere 19:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

by the way, may I inquire why the article is protected ? Ant

I would like to clear up the issue of the body basal temperature being low from onset of the period until a rise during ovulation. There is no typical ovulation schedule and each woman has a different cycle unique to her own physiology. I for instance run a temp of 99.0 F during my period. After it goes back to normal and then I only experience a slight uptake in my temperature. A menstrual cycle is unique to each woman. There is no "safe" time to have intercourse and pregnancy is entirely possible during mensturation. As I said a few times already it depends on the woman's unique physiology and cycle time- if she has a short cycle - and you have intercourse during her period- if conditions are right sperm can live in the cervical mucous for up to a week and she can then become pregnant.

error - eggs are produced after birth

Not too long ago, it was proven that eggs do form after birth. (surprise!) I've lost the reference though, and I'm sure somebody will revert if I don't provide it. AlbertCahalan 18:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You may be correct that someone has reported evidence of postnatal new egg development, but unless you can provide a reference that seems convincing, we should still go by the current consensus on the topic as reflected by the major textbooks on the topic. E.g. Johnson & Everitt, Essential Reproduction, Blackwell Science, 2000, page 14: ...in the female all the oogonial germ cells cease dividing mitotically either before birth (human, cow, sheep, goat, mouse) or shortly thereafter (rat, pig, cat, rabbit, hamster) to enter into their first meiotic division, thereby becoming primary oocytes.... The consequence of this early termination of mitosis is that, by the time of birth, a woman has all the oocytes within her ovaries that she will ever have. We can update articles to reflect brand new research as soon as it can be verified. Don't act persecuted, just find a source. alteripse 19:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/2004/03/10/eggs.php http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hseggs0311,0,7536500.story?coll=ny-health-headlines http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?hint=2&DR_ID=22627

Three articles on the reproductive experiment on mice that is convincing evidence that mammals contiue to produce new eggs. I suggest that this article at least be updated to present this new evidence as an alternative to aging textbook material. The static egg count theory need not be discarded until studies of human egg production have been verified, but I see no benefit of not including this information as well. leeach 3:25, 30 Aug 2005 (UTC)

See my topic below for link. Estrus cycle is very different from the menstrual cycle. It would be of no benefit to link here but it would help there. --Rakista 05:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Folliculogenesis

I just added a link to folliculogenesis in the follicular stage section (I think I forgot to log in when I did it). I wanted to point out that the image used to depict the ovarian histology in the article is erroneous. A lot of undergraduate biology books use some version of the diagram, but as I understand it follicle growth is a stacked process that runs the action-packed portion of its course in about ninety days, or three menstrual cycles. If anybody can find a more representative one... -D. Wu 02:45, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Introduction expansion request

I'd like to use this as one of the daily featured articles on the main page, but the introduction needs to be beefed up a bit first. Would someone care to do the honors? →Raul654 18:59, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

The cycle order

Shouldn't it make sense that that "menstruation" stage occurs last, following the "luteal phase"? The picture supports this point, as does the first time the menstrual cycle occurs--the corpus luteum cannot degrade if it is not formed first in the previous phase. unless the present order is the scientifically accepted order, i propose it be changed to follicular phase->ovulation->luteal phase->menstruation. -- Bubbachuck 18:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Where is the FAC discussion page for this article?

Hi, when an article is nominated for featured status, there is a page where users leave comments on whether they support or object to the nomination. Where is that particular page for this article? I have been unable to find it.

The oldest featured articles, of which this is one, were created out of the old "brilliant prose" list, and therefore did not go through the featured article candidates process. →Raul654 03:08, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

silicon/silicone

the usual mix up - i doubt any woman would want to use a menstrual cup out of silicon !!

ahpook 11:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

New eggs may continue to grow in mammalian species

New eggs continue to develop in adult mice this may only effect animals that undergo an estrus cycle but it would be interesting to mention it here. Opinions? --Rakista 16:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

If mice don't menstrate then I would not confuse things by putting it here. alteripse 16:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I suppose I will mention it on the estrus cycle page and say that it has not yet been confirmed in the menstal cycle --Rakista 05:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Moon - mene

I'm not sure whether 'mene' in Greek means moon. I thought that moon in Greek was 'seléne' or 'selaîna' and that 'mén' meant month. I'll try to look into this today or within this week. Perhaps it is some ancient or rare word which I don't know. Tell me if I am wrong.

Try [1], then at [2]: "The Moon is called in this Hymn both selhnh and mhnh: the former of which words signifies the Moon in the language of the Gods; and the latter is the appellation given to her by Men…" — mênê seems correct for the object, while selênê seems to connote moonlight.

You're right.

Featured article?

How did this make featured article? I don't mean to be negative (and of course I intend to add to it to improve what I deem as insufficiencies) but it seems to be rather light on information (for a featured article). There's a whole wealth of knowledge on superstitions on menstruation. I thought the article was just giving a short summary because there's a full article on that topic, but nothing's linked! (Compare this to the anarcho-capitalism article, about which far fewer people would be capable of contributing.) All it has is a sentence about social perception of menstruation. Is there a record of the nomination? I clicked the above link and it didn't take me to a nomination page. MrVoluntarist 00:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

(Answered here.) — RandallJones 01:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

menstruation in chimpanzees?

according to the page, "A regular menstrual cycle as described here only occurs in the great apes. Menstrual cycles vary in length from an average of 29 days in orangutans to an average of 37 days in chimpanzees."

though i do not know about bonobos, i am absolutely certain that common chimpanzees have estrus, not menstrual cycles. i will attempt to verify whether or not this is the case with bonobos as well. what source makes the claim that chimpanzees menstruate? thanks.--Gozar 15:30, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

See [3]. We share 98% of our DNA, chimps do go through menstrual cycles along with all the great apes --Rakista 05:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

interesting. well, i was wrong, thank you for the info. --Gozar 13:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

One question not yet addressed

Does anybody know why, when a group of women live within close proximity of each other, their cycles start to begin and end at the same time? I know that this happens. I live in a dorm with three other girls. I have a 21 day cycle. Now, they do too.129.252.234.61 06:24, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

well I'm lesbian, sfortunately all girlfriend i had, never read that. ^_^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.65.215 (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2006

Why have we not addressed -- Menstral synchronization?

Please look at this website or just google (women synchronize menstruation)

http://www.wonderquest.com/pheromone.htm

This is an important issue that we must address for a complete discussion of this topic.

The basic point is the following:

pheromones gradually effect the menstrual cycle of a woman eventually synchronizing the periods of all the women living together.

Furthermore, this website

http://www.experimentarium.dk/uk/naturvidenskab_og_teknik/artikler/artikel.140.html

Asserts that women's menstrual cycles are also influenced by pheromones that a man secrets and that women's sense of smell is more receptive to these types of pheromones that are given off in sweat.

A caveat to all this:

Some believe that the research supporting this is not credible see the following article:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021220.html

They cite methodological errors, statistical coincidence and eventual divergence due to differing cycle lengths.

ARM 04:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Menstrual synchrony is currently addressed under the 'fertile window' heading. Perhaps it would be more appropriately addressed under another heading.

Personally, I find the 'not credible' arguments more compelling. I've seen many online groups of women (i.e. people who don't physically see each other, just talk on the internet) acheive menstrual synchrony. That, to me, discredits the phermone theories.Lyrl 00:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A note on use of the words Mysticism and mystic

Connecting menstrual cycle with moon apears under the title of mysticism.Webster's Third provides three definitions for Mysticism the third being "vague speculation, belief without foundation.".The word is used here in this sesnse.I guess we can find a better title to describe it , specially because the words Mysticism and mystic are defined in wikipedia in a very different way.The terms moon time and lunar period etc arose from various folk cultures (specialy those with a goddess religeon) and found their way to popular culture partly as euphemisms.So I suggest replacing the title with Ancient Goddess religeons or something like that.Pasha 01:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Nightlighting

Is there a reference for this:

" Many women, after a period of not being exposed to artificial nighttime lighting, find their menstrual cycles begin to occur in rhythm with the lunar cycle. " Bubba73 (talk), 21:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Katie Singer lists several references in her book "Garden of Fertility". The relevent excerpt is published online [here] - Scroll down to the section entitled "Night-Lighting" and she explains the science theory and the studies (all admittedly small) that have been done.

Thank you. I don't see anything that quite says what the quote in the article says. The closest thing I found was:

... sleeping in the absence of light... "Cycles that had been very short (26 days or less) or very long (35 days or more) become 27-31 days long. " It makes the periods more regular, but if it is 27 days long, that is 2.5 days short of the lunar cycle. so the period would be a week off in only three months - hardly in sychronization. Bubba73 (talk), 00:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The "Louise Lacey and 27 of her friends" mentioned in that article claimed to have menstrual cycles in synchrony with the moon. Louise Lacey wrote a book on the technique and her research in developing it titled "Lunaception". I'm not sure how accurate her particular research was. However, I do appreciate that this article has some mention of light influencing the menstrual cycle.

Christianity & menstruation?

I'm not sure how accurate the quotes from Leviticus are in representing the "Christian" view of menstruation. I thought the laws in Leviticus (the Kosher laws, instructions to not wear clothing of mixed fabrics, etc.) were not followed at all by most Christians?

Justification for removal of text

In response to the above question I removed the following text.

Menstruation is discussed in the third book of the Hebrew Bible, Leviticus, which details the Christian Holiness Code. Leviticus 15:19 states "And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blo od, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even." http://www.carm.org/kjv/Lev/Lev_15.htm

Further penalties are imposed on those who would engage in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual cycle.

Leviticus 18:19 instructs "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness", while Leviticus 20:18 specifies this code further: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people". http://www.carm.org/kjv/Lev/Lev_20.htm

Christian doctrine is that Christ freed us from adherence to the Levitical laws as a way to maintain a right relationship with God. If a user knows of a Christian sect that teaches observation of these Levitical laws, we can reinsert it with the mention that it is held only among the whateverites.

Note to anonymous inserter. Please give us a source. I think you are a lone crank, not representing any significant Christian community. Do not re-insert until you can tell us which Christian sects support this, not which you think should support it. alteripse 20:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Religious views of menstruation deserves a separate article

Let me rephrase this: Does anyone else think we should not spin off all the religious discussion into a separate article on Religious views of menstruation? alteripse 06:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

If anyone has enough information to make a full article out of it, I think a spin-off article is a good idea. If someone doesn't have the information but is interested, there's a list of books about religion and menstruation here. Lyrl 14:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The Culture and Menstruation section has grown quite a bit since this was first brought up. Would anyone object to moving the current section into its own article? Name suggestions? Lyrl 23:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Bible and Menstruation

Justification for re-addition In response to: "I'm not sure how accurate the quotes from Leviticus are in representing the "Christian" view of menstruation. I thought the laws in Leviticus (the Kosher laws, instructions to not wear clothing of mixed fabrics, etc.) were not followed at all by most Christians?"

As defined by wikipedia, the [bible] "is the revealed word of God or an authoritative record of the relationship between God, the world and humankind", thus by definition, any laws it decrees upon menstruation are the Christian view of menstruation. Whether or not a Christian actually follows the law as written does not change the fact that the law is a part of the sacred scripture. Furthermore, the information provided was worded so as to be consistent with the information provided under Islamic and Judaic tradition. re: "Christian doctrine is that Christ freed us from adherence to the Levitical laws as a way to maintain a right relationship with God". Please cite the Bible passage or passages indicating which Old Testament laws were made obsolete by Christ. I will be adding the text back in based on the argument that the passages are quoted verbatim from the Bible which is considered the authoritive Christian view. The adherence to those passages is a seperate issue.

See above. Name a Christian sect that teaches and observes this aspect of the Levitical laws. Your claims above deliberately misrepresent the sources. An encyclopedia is not where you persuade other people that only you have the correct understanding of Christianity. Just cite who else supports and teaches this if I am mistaken? alteripse 20:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Where did I say that I have the correct understanding of Christianity? The logic is simple: The Bible is the sacred text of Christians. The Bible has specific text referring to menstruation. And so I've quoted those statements as a resource of the the Bible's view of menstruation. To clarify that not all Christians follow this part of the Bible, a notation was made at the end, but the underlying fact remains that the Bible has text referring to menstruation. I am saying "this is what is written in the bible, but yet you're interpreting it as me saying "this is what Christians believe".

1 Corinthians 10:25 says: Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

This instruction directly contradicts the Kosher laws laid out in Leviticus. Most denominations of Christianity interpret this passage and others like it to show that Christ's teachings overrode the Old Testament Laws.Lyrl 21:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

To our exasperating anonymous inserter: You have done nothing except claim that "logically" Christians should follow levitical laws. In reality, 99.99999% don't teach it, don't follow it, have never even heard of it, and would laugh out loud at your claim that they should "logically" do so. Even your claim about the Seventh Day Adventists is demonstrably false: there is no, repeat NO, evidence that they follow or teach levitical laws about menstruation. I assumed you had some weird independent 25 person congregation in mind, but you can't even truthfully point to a single Christian church that actually teaches and follows the levitical menstruation rules, can you!? Why are you so selfishly insistent in breaking our rules and thwarting our purposes here? Why not start your own church or at least your own website based on your own interpretation of the need for the levitical menstrual laws? alteripse 03:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

What? You've never visited the Little Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Uncleanliness? - Nunh-huh 03:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

(hissing through gritted teeth) you're not helping here. alteripse 03:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

As a Christian, I believe that Christ's forgiving love and sacrificial death freed us from the literal practice of Old Testament law. Jesus overcame the prejudice of female blood when he healed the bleeding woman, Mark 5:25-34. Jesus was not embarrassed and treated her with respect. Jesus actions give me freedom from Leviticus. CoralieK 11:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

on Islam

Linked directly to quote. Removed text relating to Doctor's interpretation, as it did not add any relevancy.

"bleeding blankie"?

Really? Do we want to include slang terms for all devices? I have removed it, but please feel free to reinstate if I have missed something. It happens. 22:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)

External links - Menstrual cycle calendars

While this type of software seems relevant to the article, they seem to be taking over the external links section. We now have links to menstrual cycle calendars at babymed.com, procod.com, bloodays.com, ovulation-calculator.com, perimon.com, and kyberdigi.cz

Another menstrual calendar - ovusoft.com - used to be there, but was deleted in the last edit with no explanation.

And I'm sure there are many more out there. It doesn't seem practical to include them all, so I'm leaning towards removing all of them from the links section. I'm interested to see if others have any alternate suggestions, though. Lyrl 14:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Pick the best. Delete the rest. alteripse 16:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of the process?

I'm interested in why this entire cycle might have evolved as such in the first place, instead of other (theoretical) possibilities--shouldn't there be a section in the article about theories concerning the possible evolutionary pathways toward the menstrual cycle? (Either that, or I didn't look hard enough.) ~GMH talk to me 08:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That sounds very complicated. You might also look at the evolution of sex article, since it encompasses the evolution of related processes (namely, ovulation). And the concealed ovulation article might also have information you're intersted in. But why do human women ovulate one egg at a time, at approximate monthly intervals? I haven't seen that topic addressed on Wikipedia. I would be interested if you found sources and were able to put something together.Lyrl 19:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Fertile window

My understanding was a little different than that provided in the edit comments. The MOST fertile time is from three days before ovulation, to the day of ovulation (so only four days - though if one is avoiding pregnancy, the risky window is more like 8-10 days). But if a woman doesn't know when she ovulates, or how long her luteal phase is, things become much more fuzzy. 10-16 day luteal phase is considered normal. If a woman has a 10 day luteal phase, she is still in her 'most fertile' time 10 days before her period (the day of ovulation). If a woman has a 16 day luteal phase, she begins her 'most fertile' time 19 days before her period (16 day luteal phase + 3 day average sperm life = 19).Lyrl 02:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Moon and Menstruation

In the section titled "Etymology and the lunar month" the following statement appears:

"Many women, when not being exposed to artificial nighttime lighting, find that their menstrual cycles occur in rhythm with the lunar cycle."

That the amount or quality of light reflected from the surface of the moon can influence menstruation is an extraordinary claim. I don't believe it should be allowed to stand unsupported. Is there any legitimate research available in support of this claim? If not, I believe the statement should be struck.

Thanks.

See the discussion on #Nightlighting Lyrl 23:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Menstrual Synchronization - New Ideas

Are there any wikipedian academics out there looking into this? I ask because I've noticed the considerably small amount of theories on the subject and feel that I came upon an insight that may be useful for anyone interested in reasearching it and presenting it to the scientific community.

This is an insight I have gained upon observing animal behavior, specifically, my two cats. I've had a siamese cat for years now and she has become very attached to me. I read in the wikipedia page that siamese usually attach themselves to one member of the household which is me. Recently I welcomed a cat that was found on the street. I found their interaction very interesting, as it seemed my siamese became immediatly jealous of the other cat whenever she would move near me. Soon enough, the cat I had recently adopted began go through heat. During this time, my siamese, whenever the other cat would appear, my siamese would automatically pretend to go in heat. In fact, her movements became even more exaggerated than when she was actually in heat. I know that this wasnt genuine because this would only happen whenever the other cat's presence would be known.

However, as time went by, the siamese's jealousy had made her heat authentic. After a while to this day, both cats have synchronized heat seasons.

I think this could be a valuable observation for human females in their synchronization. My point is, I believe that the aspect of competition among females is the main factor in altering their psychology, which in turn affects their menstrual cycles. It's been said that synchronized cycles are most common among single women that live together as well as womes who "party" together. I believe that the synchronization of their menstrual cycles occurs to provoke a "leveling" of the playing field. An unconscious evolutionary tool optimizing the mating process.

I would have liked to follow up on this but biology is nowhere near my field. What do you guys think?~Waking

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that menstrual synchrony happens in humans. This article explains the problems with the research done so far.Lyrl 23:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

A search of PubMed seems indicate following sequence of recent debate:

• Support: by Weller - Weller L, Weller A, Roizman S (1999). "Human menstrual synchrony in families and among close friends: examining the importance of mutual exposure". J Comp Psychol. 113 (3): 261–8. PMID 10497793.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Suggested mechanism of why only some momen will synchronise is that only some women retain sufficent sensitivity of smelling the relevant pheromones - Morofushi M, Shinohara K, Funabashi T, Kimura F (2000). "Positive relationship between menstrual synchrony and ability to smell 5alpha-androst-16-en-3alpha-ol". Chem Senses. 25 (4): 407–11. PMID 10944504.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Doubter of effect: Schank in March 2001 - Schank JC (2001). "Menstrual-cycle synchrony: problems and new directions for research". J Comp Psychol. 115 (1): 3–15. PMID 11334217.
  and in Dec 2001 - Schank JC (2001). "Measurement and cycle variability: reexamining the case for ovarian-cycle synchrony in primates". Behav Processes. 56 (3): 131–146. PMID 11738507.
• Commentaries on the 2001 papers,: by Weller - Weller A, Weller L (2002). "Menstrual synchrony can be assessed, inherent cycle variability notwithstanding: commentary on Schank (2001)". J Comp Psychol. 116 (3): 316–8. PMID 12234083.
  and Graham - Graham CA (2002). "Methods for obtaining menstrual-cycle data in menstrual-synchrony studies: commentary on Schank (2001)". J Comp Psychol. 116 (3): 313–5. PMID 12234082.
• Schank then reports new study on rats in 2004 - Schank JC (2004). "Avoiding synchrony as a strategy of female mate choice". Nonlinear Dynamics Psychol Life Sci. 8 (2): 147–76. PMID 15068734.

The only comment I would add is with ragard to User:Waking's comments above: I was given to understand that this also was seen with nuns in convents, who presumeably are not competing for " a "leveling" of the playing field. An unconscious evolutionary tool optimizing the mating process". David Ruben ^Talk 00:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Unless you consider that the nuns, being celibate, might channel all transfer all reproductive desire to gaining god's love (joke, kinda ;)) thanks for the impressive amount of resources, i'll be sure to take a look ~Waking

more pictures needed

Even though it is untasteful, but can there be pictures of menstrul blood, or a bloody vagina, or maybe a comparison with real blood in beakers? or bloody feminine hygine products? We males dont have vaginas to experiance and know what menstration is and looks like. It can be glowing and pulsating red light as far as this article explains. Doesnt wikipedia have a be bold policy? Normal reproductive textbooks (HS level and below) dont ever show photos of the blood. I think wikipedia should be bold and put some up.Patcat88 16:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I doubt would add to article and I suspect many would find "distastful" - whilst menstruation is normal, is there any need to seek images of blood ? Vomiting & urination manage to cover their topics without resorting to graphic images. David Ruben ^Talk 00:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know; there might be a case for showing what it normally looks like. After all, we are told there's very little actual blood in there, so you might expect it to be paler than it is. And that it isn't blue, like in the adverts. Skittle 19:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm - that probably highlights the need for an article on "social sensibilities" and what is considered "good/acceptable taste in advertising" - do we have such an article in wikipedia ? Also blue substitutes for yellow as well as red - as typified by similar demonstrations of absorbency for nappies in the UK (?dippers in US) :-) David Ruben ^Talk 23:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe they call them diapers. The article might be necessary, but sounds like original research would be heavily involved. I suppose you could gather pictures of advertising campaigns and post them in your theoretical article, but I don't know that they'd be free. Maybe just giving the hexadecimal number corresponding to the appropriate colour would satisfy reader's curiosity? :-) Skittle 23:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

For those interested in imagery of menstruation, the web site [4] has photos that explore the meaning and symbology of menstruation. Humans live through meaning, see Victor Frankl, ISBN 0-671-24422-1 Pbk. The aim is to give women, and men, positive and fun images for this natural function. CoralieK 11:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

A Question regarding facts in "The Fertile Window"

I have found an error I would like someone to check out if possible. The information doesn't seem the correlate, and if it does, please inform. Please read the following:

'The fertile window' is the topic of the section.

'Sperm survive inside a woman for --->669,999<--- days on average, with survival time up to five days considered normal.' Is the figure 669,999 correct? Thank you. 72.244.150.131 15:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sea sponges "plant-like"?

This is a pet peeve of mine, but I made a minor change of wording in the "sea sponges" section of the "Menstrual Products" subheading. I would just like you all to know from a certified science nerd that sponges are not "plant-like" in any way, nor should they be labeled as such. I changed the wording from "from plant-like animals" to "from the harvested skeletons of animals" because frankly, if people don't know how unsentient sponges are, then we have bigger socioeconomic problems than menstrual products.

Yes, I know the wording sounds harsher, but it's science and it's fact. And most women who would even consider the sponge would get past the fact that it's an animal and look to the environmental and economic benefits. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lady Voldything (talk • contribs)

I think changing the link to Sponge would be enough. Why was it previously linked to Contraceptive sponge? Isn't that a completely different product?

'Plant-like animals' isn't right, of course, but 'harvested skeletons of animals' suggests vague disapproval, and it could give a reader unfamiliar with biology the impression that the practice is considered cruel. 'Natural sponge' is, I hope, descriptive enough that anyone who doesn't know what a sponge is at least won't be misled (as they would with the 'plant-like' wording) but won't be put off or confused, either. And hopefully, they'll then click on the helpful wikilink and be enlightened. -- Vary | Talk 04:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The tweak you made is great. I do vaguely disapprove of it, and basically put down the first thing that came to mind. I didn't even notice the incorrect link, either- thanks! --Lady Voldything 20:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

size of organs

Do the areola, lips, etc. change sizes periodically according to the menstrual cycle?

No, they don't. The thyroid changes size during the menstrual cycle, though. Lyrl 22:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism 16.July.2006

I am a new user - I usually only make minor edits, but I came across this page and was very distressed to see that someone has erased the whole page and had left the words

"Spongeman was here"

and nothing else except for the first image of the menstrual cycle.

I really am unfamiliar with major edits, so to make a small remedy for the time being, I copied and pasted the last version before the vandalism - it's not in the proper setup, but I think all of the information is there.

A recent cross reference to the article 'Menstruation and the origins of culture' was deleted as 'vandalism'. I am not sure why. There is no overlap with the article 'Culture and menstruation', so both cross refs should be acceptable.Martinklopstock 13:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The edit immediately after yours [5] by 74.12.9.215 was vandalism. I reverted your edit because of overlap in topics, not due to vandalism

To fix the link you have added to 'Menstruation and the origins of culture', put a pipe | between the article titles instead of a semicolon ; Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 00:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, good catch on the duplication Lyrl. A lot didn't seem right about that addition, but I'm not familiar enough with this article to have caught that. Skittle 13:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Menstruation as spin-off article

I see this has been suggested before (#Menstruation as a new Article). Noticing that all the other phases (follicular, ovulation, luteal) now have their own article, I think it's a good time to spin off "menstruation" into its own article. I'm thinking about taking some information from the "Overview", "menstruation", "physical expeItalic textrience", "menstrual products", and "culture and menstruation" for the spin-off article. Any comments? Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 17:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Luteal phase

"The corpus luteum is the solid body formed in the ovaries after the egg has been released from the fallopian tube which continues to grow and divide for a while." Sorry to be a grammarian, but exactly what is it that continues to grow and divide for a while? The corpus luteum or the egg? (I presume it isn't the fallopian tube.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect figure

I think the figure in this article is incorrect on a few points:

• the numbers of the days should be moved between two dots (a day is a period, not a event);
• rise of temperature is after, not during the ovulation;
• LH increases before, not during ovulation (LH rise triggers the ovulation 36 hours before);
• no FSH rise in the early follicular phase is depicted;
• ovulation is a event, no process of 2 days;
• menstruation period is normally about 4-5 days, not 7 days;

Desiderius 8:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but the image gives off the wrong impression that the follicle goes from a primordial follicle to a tertiary follicle in the first days of the menstrual cycle. That is wrong since it takes almost a year for the follicle to attain the antral stage (and then be recruited and selected as the dominant follicle that will undergo ovulation). The timescale from the recruitment of the primordial follicle all the way to ovulation actually takes about 375 days! (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folliculogenesis). This is a commone mistake and even some textbooks have it. The first three follicles must be changed to smaller versions of the fourth one with a smaller antrum. There is a diagram in the folliculogenesis page. Notice how the follicle is already "grown-up" when it reaches the selection window to enter the ovarian cycle? I already messaged the creator of the picture but he never answered...

Does anyone have a better diagram or could anyone make one? I think it's pretty important. Horia 03:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all the concerns raised above. I've also made the temperature wander a little to better reflect actual temperature charts. My current file is visible here. Comments welcome. I'll wait a few days for comments so I can make any other requested changes, and then upload it to Wikipedia under the name MenstrualCycle2.png Lyrl ^Talk _C 23:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Lyrl, looks good to me! Horia 14:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Original research rules--do they apply to this and other pictures?

Sorry, but what are the rules for creating an image for an article? I suspect that images, like article text, must follow the No original research rule. As such I would suggest that all of the data that are plotted need to come from reliable, verifiable, secondary sources as defined by official policy. So, number one I think the image needs references (what data support these claims?), and number two, with no offense meant, I don't think that it's okay for a user to change the image based on their own experience of actual temperature charts--that would qualify as original research. Please, anyone, let me know if I'm not correct, or what the policies are. All good-faith feedback is welcome. Ehb (talk) 16:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Required references are located (or should be) in the text of this article and its sub-articles. The average length of menstruation is referenced in this article. The timing of the LH, FSH, and estrogen surges (and that BBT is often lower during the estrogen surge than before it) are referenced in follicular phase. If you have a concern about something specific, you can add a {{fact}} tag to the appropriate text, or express it here. But in general, the main concern with images is copyright, not original research or verifiability. It's OK that Image:NuvaRing compressed.jpg was taken by a user, so there's no verification it's actually a NuvaRing or if it's just a piece of plastic. The important thing about images is that they aid in understanding of the (reliably referenced) text, not that they themselves have references. Lyrl^Talk _C 20:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Normal menarche age 8-16 ????

While it's certainly not unheard of for a girl to first menstruate at the age of 8, this is considered precocious (Cesario & Hughes 2007, J Obstet Gynecol Neonatal Nurs 36:263-274). In recent study of over 700 girls designed to study girls with early menarche, the youngest girl to menstruate was 9.4 years at menarche (Sloboda et al. 2007, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 92:46-50).

The references I've provided above suggest that this statement is inaccurate as it stands. Unfortunately, I do not have good data on what should be considered normal. In things of this nature I have noticed that there is often a tendancy to report that a certain range is normal, possibly so as not to make people worry that they are abnormal. However, to say that any age range is "normal" is incomplete unless normality is defined. In a sample of one-million, it might be "normal" to have one girl who reaches menarche at age 5, and another not until 25. But that doesn't mean that "5-25" is the "normal" range.

My suggestion is to report the mean age of menarche with the standard deviation, based on one or (hopefully) more solid sources, and then perhaps to add a statement mentioning that the distribution is highly variable.

Ehb 17:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, but it's not something I'm familiar with. I think Wikipedia's policy of Be Bold applies here.

If you enclose references in <ref></ref> tags after the article text while in the edit window (what you see when you click on an "edit" button), they will appear at the end of the article in the "references" section in normal viewing mode. Lyrl ^Talk _C 01:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Two points. First of all, try looking at the more relevant articles: puberty and menarche. This article is not the place for a detailed exposition on timing of menarche. Second, menarche can be normal in every sense except chronological age as early as 1 year or later than 18: see Lina Medina for an example of perfectly normal very early menarche. Don't get hung up on trying to establish an age threshold for "normal" because there isn't one-- only a mean and percentiles. alteripse 01:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Category removal

This article has been removed from Category:Fertility awareness as part of a planned deletion of Category:Periodic abstinence, Category:Fertility awareness, and Category:Natural family planning - articles from those categories will be merged into the new Category:Fertility tracking. Category:Fertility tracking is currently a subcategory of Category:Menstruation. Please bring up any concerns related to this merger at Category talk:Fertility tracking. If there are no objections within four days, the three categories proposed for deletion will be tagged for speedy deletion. Lyrl ^Talk _C 22:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Apes?

The introduction says "occurs in the females of human beings and other great apes". The section "Menstrual cycles in other mammals" states that estrus cycles should not be confused with menstrual cycles, then appears to give the duration of estrus for chimpanzees and orangutans. This is either ambiguous (do apes have menstrual or estrus cycles?) or flat out wrong. 75.198.89.65 04:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

They appear to have both - some information available here. Menstrual cycle meaning they menstruate, estrus cycle meaning they have a pronounced higher interest in sex when they are most fertile (which humans may also have, see here). I'm not clear enough on the specifics to attempt to improve the Wikipedia articles involved, although I agree they are weak in this area. Lyrl^Talk _C 13:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Cycle lenght

The article states: It is unusual for a woman to experience cycle length variations of less than four days.

I would say, it is rather very usual.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kasiata (talk • contribs) 08:46, 3 September 2007

That is what the reference says. If you are aware of a different reference that says otherwise, please add it to the article or point it out on this page so we can add that information to the article. Lyrl^Talk _C 12:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ovulation

The article reads that the Fallopian tubes need to capture the ovum...however it is the fimbrae that catch the ovum, which then travels through the Fallopian tubes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chem Lady (talk • contribs) 04:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary advantage of the menstrual cycle

I googled a bit to find explanations why in the course of evolution (some) primates developed the menstrual cycle and other species not, but I could not find any. Given the fact that a non-negligible share of women suffer of dysmenorrhea to a degree that they are severely constricted in activities of every-day life as well as their work, the "invention" of the menstrual cycle simply seems to be a maladaption. Maybe someone can write a bit on the current scientific status of this issue. 84.163.85.165 (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

To my understanding, dysmenorrhea doesn't occur in other primates, so it is a problem with humans specifically, not with the menstrual cycle itself. Possibly it is caused by environmental factors rather than absolute genetic disposition. Also, for the vast majority of human evolutionary history (a few hundred thousand years), women were either pregnant or breastfeeding for most of their lives. Breastfeeding combined with the restricted calorie diet (nutritionally rich, just low-calorie) of most hunter-gatherer societies is highly effective at suppressing menstruation. Only in the past few thousand years has menstruation become a common event (with the higher calorie diet of agricultural societies and the discovery of rudimentary methods of birth control).

There are a few theories of why menstruation evolved in the menstruation article. Do you think we should try to incorporate them here? Lyrl^Talk _C 22:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Evolution is a controversial theory and only 55% of people believe it according to a 1993 poll, i think its best to not mention it at all to be honest considering wiki's neutrality and the amount it could spin-off topic.

75.179.163.66 (talk) 05:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC) Jade Rat

Evolution is an exceedingly well-supported scientific theory despite what a plurality of laymen in the U.S. may think. So, there's no reason to not include any information that can be reliably sourced about the evolution of the menstrual cycle. Aunt Entropy (talk) 00:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Sperm survival length

This sentence "Sperm survive inside a woman for 3 days on average, with survival time up to five days considered normal" seems a bit off. It states the average as 3 days, while survival up to 5 days considered normal. would normal not usually mean average? should it not state that 5 days is the maximum it can survive?

I think eight days is considered the maximum, but the odds of that are about like winning the lottery. "Normal" is a range, with anywhere from one day to five days considered normal. Lyrl^Talk _C 02:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Figure change

The image at the top of the article was replaced with a revised version yesterday. I had both some concerns and some positives comments on the changes:

• The figure reintroduces a number of inaccuracies addressed previously: #Incorrect figure (specifically lines 2,3,4, and 6 in the bulleted list plus the issue with primordial follicles in the following paragraph)
• Showing ovulation as a fuzzy line more clearly conveys that it is an event and not a phase, this is a nice improvement.
• The text is much easier to read, both the labels of the phases and especially with the color coding of the different hormones.

The improvements to the figure are greatly appreciated, but it concerns me they were apparently done to the old image file with the several inaccuracies addressed above rather than to the corrected version. Lyrl^Talk _C 19:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Starting mensturation

I have a question, when you first get your period, does it come every month, because ive had my period twice already, and i first got it in january. I'm not getting it every month. If you have the answer to my question, please respond.76.28.39.43 (talk) 03:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Average cycle length is 28 days, most cycles fall in the 26-32 day range which is close to the length of a month. Shorter and longer cycles can also be normal, especially during adolescence, breastfeeding, and perimenopause. Lyrl^Talk _C 22:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Need Cultural Reference for this article

I know that sound unusual but I was looking for mensuration cycle/mensuration/MC etc for their cultural beliefs and significance. Can we have a MC in popular culture like heading :):) 59.95.104.87 (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)Maddy, 11.51pm,27 July 2008.

It's more prominently linked in the menstruation article. The article is not well developed, but here you go: Culture and menstruation. Lyrl^Talk _C 22:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible..

Is it possible to have your period when you're pregnant? Like you could miss your first one, but have your second one? I thought I could find the answer here but I couldn't find anything. --86.156.114.22 (talk) 20:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Women often bleeding during pregnancy, and it may be similar in flow and length to menstruation. It is not menstruation, though. You might see First trimester bleeding or Vaginal bleeding#Pregnant women, although unfortunately neither of those articles is of particular quality right now. Lyrl^Talk _C 22:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --86.156.114.22 (talk) 03:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ref and notes

What is with these two sections? Is it just me or are they mixed up? Changed arround.

Doc James (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Could the notes section not be combined into the rest of it? And needs to be better referenced. A section on history and society would be great. There are dozens of books on this topic. It mainly just covers the medical aspect and doesn't give a full overview of the menstrual cycle.

Doc James (talk)

The "Note" item doesn't seem to refer to any specific item in the text (none I could see in a quick scan, at any rate). I suspect that it was added as a "note to self: expand this idea" item. An entire section could be written on cyclical issues around mating behaviors, from what's listed there (and others like it) to how hormonal contraception interferes with natural scent preference.

Are you willing to add refs? This article really needs them, and it's up on a WP:FAR deadline. I've added some, but would be thrilled to have someone else pull a standard textbook off the shelf and add more. At least half of the missing refs should be easily supplied by any decent textbook. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hormonal control section - redundant?

The discussion of estrogen surges, FSH, LH, etc. in the "hormonal control" section seems, to me, to be redundant with the "follicular phase" and "luteal phase" sections. I think the "control" section was there first, and as the article developed the material was added to the "phase" section, which I think is a more natural place for it.

I would like to remove most of the "control" section, leaving just "effects on other systems" (or some other title) as its own section (which will need some expansion). Any thoughts on this plan? Lyrl^Talk _C 17:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Deleting Talk?

Still requesting change in blister pack image. It seems to have been deleted. I hope this is due to an accidental or outside force uncontrolled by you. If you deleted by concern, you are sensoring and I would be very dissapointed, as should your readers. Please get back to me on removing the blister pack image for the reasons I stated earlier.

71.194.35.184 (talk) 08:45, 25 October 2008 (UTC)Pam

It seems to have been deleted by you. If you have concerns, please explain them here before further editing the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Cycle length is not 28 days

This is only for white europeans. Other ethnicities have different cycle lengths. I believe this statement is POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.97.102 (talk) 12:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Few white Europeans have cycle lengths of 28 days; that's just an average, meaning about half go longer and about half are shorter. It would certainly be interesting and relevant to the article if other ethnicities had a different average length. Do you have a source for that claim that could be used as a reference? Lyrl^Talk _C 22:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That demonstrates a very poor understanding of averages!Andrewjlockley (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

covert menstruation

can someone please sort out that redlink? I'm really interested in it but I'm afraid i known nothing about horse periods. Andrewjlockley (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Mammalian species that reabsorb the endometrium (what a few sources call covert menstruation) have estrus cycles. The part of the cycle where the endometrium is reabsorbed is at the end of the diestrus phase. For comparison to the menstrual cycle, this would be equivalent to considering the menstrual phase to be the last part of the luteal phase. Does that help?

I've redirected the covert menstruation link to the estrous cycle article. As that article grows and splits off subsections, diestrus phase will probably end up being a better redirect, but we haven't gotten to that point yet. Lyrl^Talk _C 12:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Pseudomenses

Could someone start something about pseudomenses? I wont have enough time for the next few months. Thanks! --Enigma (talk) 01:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Problems with Phases section

The phases section of this article is problematic. It seems to conflate two sets of phases (menstruation, proliferative, and secretory) with (follicular and luteal). In particular, the timetable in the phases section is misleading as it implies none of the phases overlap with other phases even though they are from two different sets of phases. Would anyone object if I clean up this section? Kaldari (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I've tried to improve the wording concerning the phases in both the lead and the phases section. Let me know if it needs further changes. Kaldari (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

FH?

The four hormones are Estrogen, Progesterone, FSH and LH. What's FH in the diagram? It's not mentioned anywhere in the article. I think it's supposed to be LH (luteinizing hormone). 74.178.214.170 (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I've put in a request for it to be fixed. Good find. Kaldari (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I fixed it. You may need to refresh the page to see the new version. Kaldari (talk) 00:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Overview image, plus: is ovulation a phase?

I have some reservations about the new overview image. I have listed them at Talk:Menstruation#Overview image and would appreciate any feedback from others.

Also, this article now defines ovulation only as a phase. Is that the most common way to treat it? I think at least some sources define it as an event instead of a phase, and would like include that point of view in the article. Any objections? Lyrl^Talk _C 23:23, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The time immediately before, during, and after ovulation constitutes a distinct phase in the menstrual cycle that is not part of either the follicular or luteal phases. In medical literature it is usually referred to as the "periovulatory period". In other contexts it is often referred to as the "ovulatory phase". I can give you several sources for these if you like. I would be interested to see sources you have that specifically state that the menstrual cycle consists of exactly two phases. Most of the sources I've seen say three and specifically list follicular, ovulation, and luteal. Kaldari (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

'Periovulatory period' makes sense to me as a phase. I do not find it intuitive to use 'ovulation' to include the time before and after the event. Would it make sense to replace some instances of 'ovulation' in the article with 'periovulatory period'?

Toni Weschler's writings are one example of a source that divides the menstrual cycle into exactly two phases. On page 363 of the second edition of Taking Charge of Your Fertility, she states that the preovulatory portion of the cycle may be referred to as the "estrogenic phase", the "follicular phase", or the "proliferative phase". Names listed for the postovulatory portion of the cycle are "progestational phase", "luteal phase", and "secretory phase". Lyrl^Talk _C 00:30, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Technically, I think listing "periovulatory period" would be more correct, although I worry about losing accessibility, especially in the lead. Perhaps we could explain the distinction in the article body and leave "ovulation" in the lead (since that is more widely understood). I'll leave it up to your judgment though. I would even be amenable to the 2 phases suggestion, as long as it's backed up by sources. Kaldari (talk) 01:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I have modified the image - the version I created is File:MenstrualCycle3.png. Comments and suggestions welcome! Lyrl^Talk _C 03:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

File:MenstrualCycle2_en.svg has been fixed so that the drop in basal body temperature isn't as dramatic. Considering that 90% of women showed a decrease in body temperature immediately prior to the LH surge in this study, I think it makes sense to show in the diagram. Also the use of the term "histology" in the current diagram is incorrect, as we are showing the progression of a cycle through a simple illustration, not showing microscopic analysis of tissue samples. Would anyone mind if I change the diagram to the SVG version? Kaldari (talk) 17:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Body fat

Hi all, I'm a long time reader of wikipedia. I came to this article through the barbie article. What I particularly wanted to find that article is the required amount of body fat to menstrate. Its around 17-22%. So I came to this article to find out more about that.....but to no avail.

So, do you think it'd be possible to mention the required body to fat menstrate? A little more info or something? 75.72.219.104 (talk) 00:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

menstruation circle

i have been menstruating for more than 16 days, and for the past 10 days my menstruation was light, smelly and sometimes brownish, is it normal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.130.118 (talk) 10:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Sex Drive

Is there a time in the period cycle where a females sex drive is at its peak? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlgjslover (talk • contribs) 05:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Toxic Shock Syndrome

Some mention should be made as to how Toxic Shock Syndrome is related to tampon use (especially linked to non-absorbent tampons). (Sugarless (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC))

late in getting periods

m 21 years old.m getting bleeding during perods only for couple a days.n also from last 2 months my date of periods r getting late by 2 days? watz problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.59.116 (talk) 07:27, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

symptoms before menestrual cycle

what are the symptoms before getting menstrual cyle in the age of 25 . Means i have got irregular periods so i wanted to know the symptons because i sometimes suffer from hormonal changes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.213.225 (talk) 16:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Studies needing justification before reinsertion

I moved the following text, and its references to here: repeated studies have consistently shown the mean and median of sample menstrual cycle data to be around 29.5 days. The references are:

The thing is, I found none of these articles to be able to tell anything more than Chiazze 1968 [6]. The 1937 study seems too old, and the sample size in Cutler 1979 is only one tenth of that in Chiazze. I couldn't get access to Treloar 1967, however, so it would be appreciated if anyone with access had a look at it just in case. Mikael Häggström (talk) 08:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

testosterone levels?

I seem to vaguely remember some books saying that testosterone levels will vary throughout the menstrual cycle along with estrogen levels (off hand, memory tells me they follow the same path - although not the same levels).

I could not find a reliable source for this, but if anyone finds this it would be useful to mention. If the levels fluctuate enough it might be worth including on some of the graphs shown as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.159.238.97 (talk) 03:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

menstrual flow

steps should be taken while menstrual flow ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.97.162.99 (talk) 17:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Title of this page

I was doing some studying about the 'menstrual cycle' and found this in Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology (chapter 81):

"The normal reproductive years of the female are characterized by monthly rhythmical changes in the rates of secretion of the female hormones and corresponding physical changes in the ovaries and other sexual organs. This rhythmical pattern is called the female monthly sexual cycle (or, less accurately, the menstrual cycle)."

So I'd like to request a name change for this page to sexual cycle, since that would be scientifically correct. Zaheer12a (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how "menstrual cycle" is less scientifically correct. And in any case, the title you propose is not the WP:COMMONNAME; nor does it pass Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Naming conventions. 37.59.65.55 (talk) 18:31, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Contradictory statements on lunar effect

At the bottom of the Menstrual_cycle#Length section there are statements supporting a Lunar effect on menstrual cycles:

A 1979 study of 305 women found that approximately one-third of the subjects had lunar period cycles in length, i.e., a mean cycle length of 29.5 days plus or minus 1 day. Almost two-thirds of the subjects started their cycle in the brighter half of the lunar cycle, significantly more than would be expected by random distribution. Another study found a statistically significant number of menstruations occurred around the new moon.

However, in the "Nightlighting and the moon" section it says:

A meta-analysis of studies from 1996 showed no correlation between the human menstrual cycle and the lunar cycle. Dogon villagers did not have electric lighting and spent most nights outdoors, talking and sleeping; so they were an ideal population for detecting a lunar influence; none, however, was found.

I think the latter has more evidence, since it is a meta-analysis that was done more recently, and therefore I suggest that the text in the former box should be removed from the article. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:50, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick response! A couple of moons ago I did look into this quite deeply but have since forgotten anything that I learned. I do remember that any information is quite questionable. Please give me some time to again become familiar with your new suggestions. For now, Gandydancer (talk) 17:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC) err...actually it was quite a few moons ago... Gandydancer (talk) 17:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, ref #1 Straight Dope is out because they claimed incorrectly that a normal period is 28d.

The pubmed studies say:

ref#2:

Abstract

In a selected population of 312 women, prospective menses records were maintained during the autumn of 1977. Women whose menstrual cycle duration approaches the cycle duration of the earth's moon (29.5 days) tend to ovulate in the dark phase of the lunar period. The dark phase encompasses the half-cycle of the month from last quarter, through new moon, to first quarter. Women showing irregular menses also tended to ovulate during the dark phase of the lunar period. PIP:

The possibility of a lunar effect on the menstrual cycle was investigated in 312 university students who kept records of their menstrual cycles. These records were studied for 14 weeks in a double-blind, prospective manner. Of the 312 women, 68 experienced lunar period cycles (29.5 days). Of these 68, 47 menstruated in the light half of the month; therefore, ovulation tended to occur in the dark phase of the lunar period which is defined as the half-cycle of the month from the last quarter, through new moon, to first quarter. Even women with irregular menses (defined for this study as appreciably varied from the 29.5-day lunar cycle) also tended to ovulate during the dark phase of the lunar period. One possible explanation is that a natural rhythm of electromagnetic radiation has its origin in the lunar cycle and may be reflected in phase-locking of the human menstrual cycle.

ref #3

PIP:

A double-blind, prospective study during the fall of 1979 investigated the association between the menstrual cycles of 305 Brooklyn College undergraduates and their associates and the lunar cycles. All subjects were 19-35 years old and using neither OCs (oral contraceptives) nor the IUD. Approximately 1/3 of the subjects had lunar period cycles, i.e., a mean cycle length of 29.5 +/- l day. Almost 2/3 of the subjects started their October cycle in the light 1/2 of the lunar cycle, significantly more than would be expected by random distribution. The author concludes that there is a lunar influence on ovulation.

ref #4

PIP:

A synchronous relationship between the menstrual cycle and lunar rhythm was confirmed by investigative data, laboratory findings, and clinical experience. Among the 826 female volunteers with a normal menstrual cycle (ages 16-25), a large proportion of menstruations occurred around the new moon (28.3%), while at other times during the lunar month, the proportion of menstruations occurring ranged between 8.5-12.6%; the difference was significant (P0.01). The 6-hydroxymelatonin levels in the urina sanguinis of 3 female volunteers reached their zenith prior to and during menstruation, gradually declining to their nadir during ovulation. The difference in 6-hydroxymelatonin between menstruation and ovulation was significant (P0.01). 2 of these 3 volunteers had their zenith in the period of the new moon and nadir 3-4 days prior to the full moon respectively. The lunar-menses-regulatory therapy in treatment of Nephropenic secondary amenorrhea revealed 4 clinical cures, 5 marked effects, 8 menogogue, and 3 ineffective out of 20 cases. (1986)

ref #5

Abstract

Human and animal physiology are subject to seasonal, lunar, and circadian rhythms. Although the seasonal and circadian rhythms have been fairly well described, little is known about the effects of the lunar cycle on the behavior and physiology of humans and animals. The lunar cycle has an impact on human reproduction, in particular fertility, menstruation, and birth rate. Melatonin levels appear to correlate with the menstrual cycle. Admittance to hospitals and emergency units because of various causes (cardiovascular and acute coronary events, variceal hemorrhage, diarrhea, urinary retention) correlated with moon phases. In addition, other events associated with human behavior, such as traffic accidents, crimes, and suicides, appeared to be influenced by the lunar cycle. However, a number of reports find no correlation between the lunar cycle and human reproduction and admittance to clinics and emergency units. Animal studies revealed that the lunar cycle may affect hormonal changes early in phylogenesis (insects). In fish the lunar clock influences reproduction and involves the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis. In birds, the daily variations in melatonin and corticosterone disappear during full-moon days. The lunar cycle also exerts effects on laboratory rats with regard to taste sensitivity and the ultrastructure of pineal gland cells. Cyclic variations related to the moon's phases in the magnitude of the humoral immune response of mice to polivinylpyrrolidone and sheep erythrocytes were also described. It is suggested that melatonin and endogenous steroids may mediate the described cyclic alterations of physiological processes. The release of neurohormones may be triggered by the electromagnetic radiation and/or the gravitational pull of the moon. Although the exact mechanism of the moon's influence on humans and animals awaits further exploration, knowledge of this kind of biorhythm may be helpful in police surveillance, medical practice, and investigations involving laboratory animals.

And source #6 does not agree: "The Moon Was Full and Nothing Happened" [7]

I'm going to go with the PubMed articles rather than one that, like Straight Dope, has the 28d problem and goes on to say The light of the moon is a very minor source of light in most women's lives, and is no more likely than the moon's gravitational force to have a significant effect on a woman's ovulation. Furthermore, the average menstrual cycle is 28 days but varies from woman to woman and month to month, while the length of the lunar month is a consistent 29.53 days.' It seems that these authors are not even aware that even clams feel the moon effect when put in a box that does not allow "the light of the moon". Gandydancer (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)