Talk:Robert Jay Lifton

Thought reform/cults

I've made some drastic edits and cut most of this text:

His 1961 book, Thought Reform introduced theories of "brainwashing" and "mind control", which he later advocated in court in the capacity of an expert witness in the 1976 trial of Patty Hearst. The theories, however, failed to become mainline science: American Psychologists Association (APA) dismissed them in 1987, American Sociologists Association officially supported the decision. Currently, "brainwashing" and "mind control" theories are considered science fiction by professional psychologists and sociologists. U.S. Courts repeatedly refused to accept references to "brainwashing" and "thought control" as phenomena existing in reality.

The theories are however widely used by anti-cult activists. Lifton has published many books in which he applied these theories to goverments, new religious movements and terrorist groups.

In 2002 an attempt was made again to make the American Psychological Association form a panel to re-evaluate the theories. References to terrorism and religious fanaticism were made by anti-cult activists to emphasize the importance of the theories and attract support from mainline scholars. It is unknown whether the attempt was successful.

Basically this is a POV screed which bashes Lifton for having been cited by anti-cult groups, but shows little knowledge of his work. There are several big problems here: 1. This text entirely blurs the distinction between Lifton's theory of "thought reform" and the claims of anti-cult groups who have cited Lifton's work rather selectively. The latter are what the APA and ASA disavowed, and in fact Lifton himself has spoken against such misapplications of his work. 2. It is very misleading to mention Thought Reform without mentioning its conclusion, which was that such techniques generally failed in their grand ideological ambitions, managing only to coerce short-term behavior and/or produce general nervous breakdowns—which is what he claimed had happened to Patty Hearst. 3. The "Lifton has published many books..." sentence is also very misleading; Lifton's other books often make reference to "totalism" as a feature of authoritarian ideologies, but that has nothing to do with brainwashing or thought control; those are not the focus of his work.

I hope to return to the article soon and expand it to do more justice to the breadth of Lifton's writing. ←Hob 00:04, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)

If you want to do justice to his work then erase the entire article.

His latest - Nazi Doctors - is pure bunk. History it ain't. Rehashed myths that make for a good movie script, fiction at best - no quotes, no research, ... but very saleable. Antecdotes can come from both sides - in WW2 buddies of severely wounded GIs left their friend where the German soldiers would take him to the "NAZI DOCTORS" to save his life. Document our atrocities before you take a flight of fancy - unless you are Wiki I guess.

The incoherent comment above speaks for itself - I'll just point out that this anonymous editor seems to think The Nazi Doctors is Lifton's "latest". It was written in 1986. ←Hob 01:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Psychohistory disambiguation

I spent quite a lot of time recently on the variant of psychohistory which has become associated with the name of Lloyd deMause. The article is now a merged version of two separate articles. A link to Robert Jay Lifton is included in the section titled "Notable psychohistorians". There is also a disambiguation at the top of the page for Isaac Asimov's use of the term: psychohistory (fictional).

At present, this article mentions the Wellfleet Group briefly. I did a Google search and found that more material is available. Would any of the previous contributors object if I reworked the "Influences" section to expand on the activities of the Wellfleet Psychohistory Group? It's two sentences at the moment. If there was more material about the group, the section could be renamed "The Wellfleet Psychohistory Group." -- Bookish 17:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Mental coercion only short-term?

Hob, can you supply a reference to the edit that Lifton says mental coercion or thought reform/brainwashing is "only" able to effect short-term behavior? This goes completely against what I've studied on the subject. 208.78.72.18 (talk) 21:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Citation certainly needed, but maybe the statement should be that the "cult personality" disappears if it is not continually renewed by social pressure from the cult. Having less experience and more like tales from former cult members, I got the impression that most of the cult's energy is directed towards making the members not bailing out, and keep the member being ideologically well-behaved (JW). ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 22:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I finished it a few days ago and I'm pretty sure that's what he says. When taken out of the brainwashing environment (e.g. when his subject leave China), the effects start to vanish. Only one or two out of the about 40 cases got really converted to the other side, and it took on one case some years, but the subject started questioning the doctrines. Even when staying in the environment, a lot of the subjects have started having doubts and challenged in some way the doctrine. 78.90.26.228 (talk) 09:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC) I

I haven't read Lifton on brainwashing/mind control, but I'm reminded of something I read several years ago about UFO contact cults, namely that new recruits are eager believers when in the company of the core group, but when the new recruits are away from the core group their faith begins to fade. Sorry I can't recall the source -- possibly Jacques Vallée? I wouldn't post it to Wikipedia without a reliable source, although the basic idea (presence of group reinforces faith of believers) seems self-evident and applicable to a great many areas of human interaction. Karl gregory jones (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sentence out of place?

The following sentence seems completely out of place, what book is it referring to? Can someone put it where it belongs?

"The term thought-terminating cliché was popularized by Robert Lifton in this book."

-- Dougher (talk) 17:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Holocaust section out of place

Could the contents of the Holocaust section be integrated with the structure of the article so that it did not appear to be an advertising-like placement of propaganda or provocation? DCDuring (talk) 13:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, one of Lifton's best known books, be merged here. There is already a section here that is just a slightly abbreviated version of the other article. Readers interested in the book would benefit from the background on the author, and those interested in the author would get the full information on the book. BayShrimp (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. None of his other books has its own article, and there are 21 listed here. Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I have added some material to the section on the book here. Borock (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Bibliography

I suggest adding the following reference: Lifton, R. (2007). Destroying the World to Save It. in "Voices of Trauma". B. Drožđek and J. Wilson, Springer US: 59-86.

An additional comment: Lifton's contribution is chapter 3 of this book and is an extended psychohistorical analysis of the sect and the guru responsible for the March 20, 1995, Aum Shinrikyō sarin gas attach in Tokyo. The author mentions extensive work in Japan ("I have been talking to young Japanese for more than four decades..." on page 80 of the book) and, not knowing who Prof Lipton is, while reading this article, I had the distinct impression that he is an expert about Japan, probably fluent in the language. I have no idea if this is actually the case, but if yes, it seems to me that this is worth mentioning in this Wikipedia entry.

Benadampapa (talk) 18:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Lifton in litcrit

On 3 June 2015, User:Hmak06 (contributions) added a section about:

Heide Kunzelmann's study about Austrian Avantgarde poet Hans Carl Artmann (1921-2000), entitled "Ich bin ja der Proteus. H.C. Artmanns Poetik der Wandelbarkeit" (Vienna, Sonderzahl 2013,ISBN 978 3 85449 402 7). Kunzelmann exemplarily discusses Artmann's poetics in the context of the author's personal history as a deserter of the Wehrmacht (etc)

This remained in the article for over two months, till I deleted it a few minutes ago.

Despite its claimed exemplariness (?), Kunzelmann's work isn't mentioned in the article on H. C. Artmann (although Hmak06 got it into the German-language article about him).

Hmak06 does appear keen on the importance of Heide Kunzelmann. Her fellow editors of de:WP are not all so impressed. And here, the same.

I've deleted the section from this article, as trivia and/or advertising. -- Hoary (talk) 00:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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What degree does Robert Jay Lifton have? MD? PhD?

Here is a link that confirms he has a M.D. degree. Let's add it. https://www.nymc.edu/school-of-medicine-som/som-alumni-profiles/robert-j-lifton/