Talk:Arthur Gould (rugby union)

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Featured articleArthur Gould (rugby union) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 10, 2014.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 17, 2009Good article nomineeListed
December 31, 2013Peer reviewReviewed
April 19, 2014Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Question[edit]

Does anyone know which Newport this refers to, so that we can disambiguate it? Don't say 'the one in Wales', there are two. DJ Clayworth 15:35, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Possible Good Article[edit]

I've been through the article a few times and I think its worth a GA nomination. It fits the criteria I think - well-written; factually accurate and verifiable by references; broad; neutral; and stable. The very start of the lead reads slightly awkwardly to me, it mentions Gould being a Welsh international centre and full-back, and I put myself in the position of the "ignorant" (in the best sense of the word) reader and asking myself what that is! It does then go on to mention Gould as a rugby player in the next few words but maybe the emphasis needs a change. It reads well enough to me, plenty of detailed coverage of Gould's rugby career and detail about his life outside the game. No reference to the facts about his death though as far as I can see. These are just a few initial thoughts and I'll put it to one side and come at it fresh again tomorrow.

Pretty good article anyway about a major figure in the early-ish history of Welsh international rugby. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think I can add any more to it to be honest - I'd suggest you put it up for GA nomination and see how it gets on. It might not necessarily pass first time but I doubt it would need much further work. It's readable, comprehensive, well-referenced and decently illustrated, for my money at least.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arthur Gould (rugby player)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Overall the article is good, quite detailed given when he played. I did find some issues though:

  • "Towards the end of his career Gould was at the centre of a row which saw Wales withdraw from international rugby for 12 months." Not sure what that means; is row slang in this case, or was something going on that I'm not picking up on?
    • have changed row (as in argument) to controversy. It refers to the Gould Affair. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since his other three brothers don't have articles, their careers need citations here.
    • Have now cited all three brothers at Newport.FruitMonkey (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wyatt also represented Great Britain in the 400m hurdles in the 1908 Summer Olympics at White City, London." Cite needed
  • Images need WP:ALT text. (Would do myself but it's still new to me)
  • As someone who knows little about rugby, I don't get what you mean by 'first XV' or 'third XV'. Could that be explained?
    • Have added the meaning to each of these terms the first time they appeared. Not sure if they should be in brackets, but I dislike using brackets within the main body of the test. FruitMonkey (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As there were no professional rugby players in Wales, Gould and his brother Bob, travelled Britain working as public works contractors." Cite needed
  • ..."in which the club failed to lose a single match, now known as the team's 'invincible' season" Cite needed
  • Keep fullback constant in how you spell it out; I see fullback, full-back, and full back several times, pick one.
  • "The 1896 Championship began with another Welsh loss to England, but the second game, against Scotland was a historic rugby match despite ending in another Welsh defeat" Cite needed, mainly if you're gonna use the word historic.
  • Of curiosity, if there's only one ref in a paragraph, that ref is citing all the info in the paragraph, right?
    • I think I have addressed the paragraph in question, adding three more cites. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use both 'a historic' and 'an historic' in the article; synchronize
  • "At half time Wales were 7-0 down, with tries from Lohden and Marshall and a conversion from England captain A.E. Stoddart." First names for the two players?
    • Names added and one already had his own page. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite the poor performance, the crowd was enthusiastic and celebrated the Welsh victory." Cite needed
  • "The 1894 Championship began with a poor loss for the defending champions, in a game which saw Welsh in-fighting give the result to their opponents." Cite needed
  • "This caused a stir from the other Home Unions as it was seen as an attempt to pay Gould for playing, and as such was professionalism." Cite needed. If this is meant to tie into the Gould affair then nevermind.
    • It does indeed relate to the Gould Affair.
  • Final two paragraphs of later life need citations.
  • The article is a little lax in citations in general, but at the same time there's nowhere that they were sorely needed unless i marked it.
    • With those requested I think I have increased the cites' by about twenty so far. Will attempt to continue to improve. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll put this on hold; after all these concerns are addressed I'll do a second run through to see if any further sentences need citation. Wizardman 04:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Everything looks good to go now and I would consider it passing GA status. Just keep working on the refs every so often and it could be an FAC down the road. Wizardman 23:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

bio at this link from 1899[edit]

Thought I would post this link here, and editors of this article can take a look and see if anything useful is in it. It may or may not be useful: Famous Players: A J Gould (scroll down a little bit SauliH (talk) 04:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Saracerns Ground[edit]

The article states "... and three days later the first team took to the field at the Saracerns Ground in Walthamstow against London Scottish", by Saracerns does this mean Saracens F.C., and Palmerston Road, Walthamstow? Best Regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It should read "Saracens" and it is at Palmerston Road". FruitMonkey (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Citations[edit]

Hey. Wondering if it's okay to change the citation style used within the article. I was thinking something more like Thomas Ellison or The Original All Blacks. A harvard style that uses template:harv and template:sfn. I'm happy to convert it myself. There are a couple of reasons why I like it:

  • It looks pretty good
  • It makes it easier to edit (in my opinion)
  • Can add references first, and then add the inline citations at a later date

Need to the consent of the major contributor here, and don't want to step on anyone's toes. - Shudde talk 11:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Splendid idea. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your citations for Davies were for the year 1999 – I changed them to 2008, was this correct? - Shudde talk 10:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another question, I'm not familiar with the format "Griffiths (1987), p.4:7" – what does 4:7 refer to? - Shudde talk 11:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Book doesn't use page numbers, it's split into sections and then by page. So England is Chapter 1, pages 1-65. Then Scotland is Chapter 2, pages 1-62. So 4:7 is Chapter 4, page 7; but that's not a true page number. FruitMonkey (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Middlesex[edit]

I've been trying to find more information on Gould playing for Middlesex. Looks like he played against the 1888–89 New Zealand Native football team in 1888 [1] [2]. This match was on 22 October, but Gould was unavailable for Wales later that year. The second link also suggests Middlesex had an undefeated season in 1887, possibly when Gould was playing for them. - Shudde talk 04:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Things remaining from peer review[edit]

There are a few outstanding points from the peer review that need to be addressed before the article is ready for FAC. I'll list them here:

  • Gould is regarded as the first superstar of Welsh rugby -- need to say by who
  • May be worth including a reference for the note that injury replacements were not permitted during Gould's career.
  • took a swiftly heeled ball -- may need rewording to remove jargon
  • The game swung again when Percy Phillips took a swiftly heeled ball and passed to Gould -- do we know what position Phillips was playing?
  • all round player and even-time sprinter -- "even-time sprinter" will not be understood by many, should be reworded
  • The game was played in front of 17,000 supporters at Rodney Parade, and was the 18th time Gould had captained his country – a record eventually broken by Ieuan Evans in 1994 -- should consider rewording, record could be taken to refer to attendance rather than captaincy
  • Need to check images, including captions and formatting as per MOS:IMAGE.

The following statements need an inline reference, or a check that the succeeding inline citation supports the statement (except in the case of the succeeding citation being in a new paragraph, in which case it should be replicated at the end of the sentence):

  • After playing just a handful games during the three seasons preceding it, in the 1889–90 season he managed 15 games for the club – scoring ten tries and five dropped goals.
  • Gould was first capped for Wales against England in the opening game of the 1885 Home Nations Championship. He joined his brother Bob in the side, and played at full back, his preferred position at the time. Played under the captaincy of Newport team-mate Charlie Newman, this was Wales' eighth-ever international and fourth encounter with England. The Welsh lost by a goal and a try to a goal and four tries. Wing Martyn Jordan of London Welsh scored both Welsh tries, with one successfully converted into a goal.
  • For the 1885–86 season Gould switched from full back at Newport to the centre position; this tactic was adopted by Wales and Gould replaced Cardiff's Hancock at centre for their first match of the 1886 Home Nations Championship against England. The match resulted in a Welsh loss. In Wales' next game, against Scotland, Wales became the first country to trial the four threequarter system.
  • In the second game, played away to Ireland, George Bowen was given the centre position in the last match Wales would play with a three threequarter system. Gould then missed the first Welsh international against an overseas touring side, when the New Zealand Natives were beaten at St. Helen's in Swansea, and was still absent two months later for the opening game of the 1889 Championship.
  • Bancroft was full back in Gould's next 18 international games. Gould regained the captaincy for the next game, an encounter with England at Crown Flatt in Dewsbury, and from that point held the captaincy whenever he represented Wales.
  • There was little consistency for Gould at centre, with three different centre-pairings in each of the matches; Garrett against England, Conway Rees at home to Scotland and in the Irish encounter, Gould's younger brother Bert.
  • In the next match Gould was partnered by Dai Fitzgerald in a win over Scotland, but was unavailable for the encounter with Ireland and was replaced by Jack Elliott from Cardiff RFC.
  • This was followed by a close loss to Scotland at Raeburn Place and a narrow win over Ireland at the Cardiff Arms Park.
  • This caused a stir from the other Home Unions as it was seen as an attempt to pay Gould for playing, and as such was professionalism. As the arguments continued, Gould played his final international game, a solid 11–0 win over England.

Once these are done, I think we're very close to being ready for FAC. -- Shudde talk 09:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pick these up tomorrow evening. I will have no issue sourcing them all. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Will that do? FruitMonkey (talk) 18:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I'm pretty tired tonight so will make a final sweep and then nominate. That should happen in the next couple of days. I'll let you know as soon as I do this. -- Shudde talk 10:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Restating without the poetry[edit]

"He never ceased practising in order to develop his fitness and skills" seems a bit syrupy since if he never ceased practice then how is it that he found the time to have a family? Maybe, like Winston Churchhill, he was half American (eagle that is that fly to heights as part of their mating; but then that might be a potential adult film scenario but is not necessarily rugby).66.74.176.59 (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. He had to stop practicing to actually play. Howabout changing to something like: "Throughout his career he followed a practise regimen to develop his fitness and skills"?--Khajidha (talk) 13:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
or at least if there is a source that comments on his practicing then say that he was known for practicing his skills set but not that Victorian peppermint stick stuff with a liquidy chewy center. Even Geo. Washington never had to fess up to cutting down a cherry tree to show his integrity.66.74.176.59 (talk) 01:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks for a great article[edit]

Thanks to :@FruitMonkey: and :@Shudde: for getting this to FA status, and getting featured on the 150th anniversary of his birth was a nice touch. While doing some categorization of files for Newport, Wales on commons I came across this:

There is a brief description of the cartoon on commons. Would it be useful as an addition to the "Gould affair" section? Robevans123 (talk) 20:02, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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