Talk:Beret

Fashion side of Berets?

I think the article is too military-oriented. The kind of impression I got from this article was "berets are mainly military hats, not much else", which is definitely not true. What about berets worn for fashion? I love the part about berets being associated with film directors and painters. Could we build on that information further? (such as why? eg: The post-impressionist painter Camille Pissaro wore a beret. Did the artist/beret association originate from him?).

Also, I even often see young people wearing berets (in particular, the french berets) as a fashion statement these days. Can anyone from the fashion department comment on that? As information about berets is quite limited these days, I just thought that wikipedia may be a good place to store this information.

Would it be a good idea to move the "civilian" uses of berets to the top, and have the military info pushed down a bit?

Pactio kiss 06:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think most people would associate berets with the military. Some civilians may wear them, but they are worn by almost all military personnel in most countries. That's several million people - I don't think millions of civilians wear berets on a regular basis. -- Necrothesp 14:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not a good idea to "the military info pushed down a bit". The military use of berets is the primary use of berets worldwide, and is such in the public perception. Trying to suppress the military aspect of the beret and adding in a picture of yourself does not add value to this article. If you want to enchance the article by expanding the non-military use of berets then please do so.
--Ng.j 17:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a matter of point of vue. I'm from Gascony (SW of France. Not Basque! -see below) and I wear beret like my father and grandfathers, and because I'm not an average Frenchman. Beret as "national French hat" lasted, I would say, from 1900 to 1950. It's still worn in SW of France and reappears from time to time as a fashion object. Many artists (not only Pissarro) wore it in the past centuries. It is very old (historians say that roman soldiers had a kind of beret - don't remember the latin word for that. First military use!). So now, there are still civilian... and millions of military berets. 90.36.237.203 14:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be some more 'civilian' fashion on berets, with regards to the Americans, the beret was pretty unknown in the military until the Special Forces, and then it was derided as a 'girl scout hat' or a 'green shower cap' by rival military units.

Fashion and the military feed off each other, Monty's (General Montgomery) beret made it a fashion craze amongst women in the '40's and the original RTR beret was chosen from some British girls school as the Chausser Alpine's beret was too huge (if you see them in real life they look like they were tossing a super size pizza dough in the air when someone called 'Garde de Vous' and it landed on their head) whilst the basque one was too small.

Che Gueveara is an interesting case, he wears his beret like a woman and his photo is still pretty popular. I've seen a few photos of Castro in one but it's mostly that wire framed Ridgeway cap of the late 50's. Waukegan 10:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there needs to be a separate article for civilian use of the beret. Whether the military or civilain use of the beret is more significant is a matter of opinion, and this article would probably get too long if if both the civilian use were covered fully in this article.--RLent (talk) 22:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm an American male who has worn a very basic beret for a couple of decades now. The first one was dark blue, made in France I think, but purchased in Cambridge, England. The other few I've replaced it with have been plain black and purchased in the US. The main response I get from people isn't one of military context but more an "oh a French artist" type response or occasionally a Beatnik response. I've had little kids ask cutely out of the blue "are you an artist?" I think, at least in the US, the beret in the abstract is far more universally recognized as a symbol of art or artist than of military or militant. Perhaps even more at odds with the military connotation is that there's a certain counterculture, or at least "alternative" association with the beret in the US too. Having said that, there's one variable in concrete scenarios that's key. I have long hair and had a full beard in the past, now a tiny (real) goatee. I think if I had a shaved head or a "high 'n' tight" and was athletically built rather than slightly built then my beret might be more suggestive of military than of artist. Obviously I intend this point about other physical features to extend beyond just myself. One more thing, I had at least two philosophy professors and one comparative literature professor who wore berets. So it's not an uncommon accessory in American academia. -Michael J. Motta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.180.80 (talk) 04:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Origins

The béret is not originally from Pays basque but from Béarn, a Southern France's area just at the east of pays basque, and was first worn by Béarn herdsmen. It's a common mistake (even in France) to attribute béret's origin to the Basques but it's not true. If someone's interested to correct this. Stymphal 02:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Tank corps

I have changed "Royal Tank Corps" to just "Tank Corps" and given this a link to the Royal Tank Regiment. The Tank Corps did not have the prefix "Royal" until 1923 (and this paragraph refers to an incident in 1918) and it later became the current Royal Tank Regiment; the change is addressed in the article for the RTR. LJade728 20:31, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

History of beret

In discussions about polish article we've found that beret was probably used in ancient ages. If someone's interested, please confront this infotmation with Français or Deutsch Wikipedia. Mlepicki 11:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Belgium

The Belgian armed forces since 2002 have an unified command structure and consist of four components: Land, Air, Navy and Medical component. Before there were the Army (Land force), Air force, and Navy (Sea force), as well as the Medical Service. It is thus not correct anymore to speak of Belgian "Air Force" or "Navy", although these terms will probably remain in colloquial use. See Belgian army official site. (site in Dutch or French)

LHOON 07:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The list is incomplete, Denmark also uses Beret for all army units.

Of course it's incomplete. Most countries use the beret. If you know of more information, it's better that you add it to the article rather than saying the article's incomplete. -- Necrothesp 17:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

References

I've gone ahead and added references where I could, but this entire article smacks of "original research" which is against wikipedia policy. I'd recommend any editors that have contributed provide a reference for the information included here. Otherwise, large tracts should properly be deleted as "original research". The standards for verifiability don't seem to be met for most of the nationalities.Michael Dorosh 18:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Good to have references, but they are often hard to find on the web! However, a description as the country sections in this article is not exactly what i understand as original research, the latter being more related to scientific research topics and the like. LHOON 20:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree online references are hard to find, but nothing says the references have to be online. Every army has written dress regulations; a reference to those would suffice for verifiability, I think. Barring that, books for militaria collectors would be a prime source. I've reference both these types of sources in the footnotes so far, I would encourage others to do the same.Michael Dorosh 20:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Berets in politics

Well, talking about civilian organizations, the main symbol of Hugo Chavez the actual president of Venezuela is the red beret.

Yes, I think some people's beret are their trade mark, like Saddam and Che Guevera. 130.126.75.181 (talk) 02:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)cecikierk

Sweden

Added some colours, using this site (in swedish), as a source.

Didnt know how to translate "Gränsjägare" correctly, so I didnt add that one. 213.64.18.236 22:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That word means spruce green, I believe.76.195.83.35 (talk) 14:13, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't. The word means, literally, border jaeger. --MPorciusCato (talk) 18:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Just beret please! Never basque beret!

Beret comes from Bearn, close to Pays Basque. Basque people wore berets too, and when the first tourists came by the sea (including emperor Napoleon III) in the 1850s, they used to say "basque beret" and took them back to Paris. But this is not a good reason to insist : never say "basque beret", ok? There are two kinds of berets, just as Good and Evil. The civilian, pacific : black, with nothing on it, any size and worn the way you like (that's for popular and democrat people), large, clean and worn in military style (for conservatives). And the military : various colors, and signs, medals, symbols, see what I mean ; or the revolutionary one, with a symbol like a star or anything else (Che Guevara). Guess how is mine. (sorry, I'm supposed to write in English but I'm not very sure).90.41.59.14 13:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The Basque Country is actually a region of Spain

It has no distinctive place under the header "National Traditions" other than under the Spain section; furthermore, the so subtitled "common basque" beret, as depicted in the first pic is just the same "boina"(beret in Spanish) also traditionally used everywhere else in Spain. It´s the common Spanish beret, not the local variant called "chapela", somewhat broader, and not always black; red chapelas or boinas are also common in the basque country, specially in parades or folkloric stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.50.95.103 (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

First beret

According to the trivia track on The Fifth Element DVD, the first beret was seen on the streets of Crete c. 1750 BC.- JustPhil 03:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Carlist Wars in Spain

The paragraph on the Carlist and Liberals berets is upside down. In the 1st Carlist War (1833-40) the most common Carlist beret was the blue one,although some units wore red or white berets as a mark of distinction. Carlist commissioned officers at first were expected to wear red berets, a practice that made them an obvious target. Some Basque Liberal militia units wore red berets, one of those units was known as "Chapelgorris" (Red Berets), a sort of foreign legion rather warlike and prone to sacking churches. I'm not Basque-speaking, but in Basque songs contemporary with the 1833 war the Carlists are called "Txapelzuriak" (White Berets) and their rivals are called "Txapelgorriak"(Red Berets). Even in the 2nd Carlist War (1872-76) there were Basque local anti-Carlist constabularies and militia units wearing red berets and Carlist units with blue, white and even black berets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.ristre.com/ristreM/Carlistas/Carlistas.html" (Carlist uniforms, 1833-40) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Bonnie Parker

I added Bonnie Parker to the list of famous people who wore berets. I really do think that she is one person who has contributed, directly or indirectly, to the continued popularity of the beret. When Fay Dunaway played Bonnie Parker in the 1967 movie "Bonnie and Clyde" sales of berets to women shot way up. In Parker's own lifetime, photographs of her wearing a beret and posing with firearms were widely published, this created an archetypal image for a gun moll or female gangster. When I see I female revolutionaries wearing berets, I wonder whether the influence is from Che Guevara or Bonnie Parker, or both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.59.45 (talk) 03:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the "Berets in the Military" section is too damn long.

Why has nobody spun this off into its own article yet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.94.135 (talk) 03:36, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see an answer to that as well. Don't look at me, I've got rabid admins chasing me and can't do a thing with it.76.195.83.35 (talk) 07:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Beret in other languages

What is a beret called in other languages around the world?

The main article could be improved by supplying an etymology, and a few translations, whatever there may be for this unusual world. 216.99.198.175 (talk) 17:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh BOY did you ever ask for it!:

BERR-eht. That is the earliest pronunciation we know, and it was pronounced abou the same, everywhere it was worn. This word originated with the term berettino, the Old Latin/Rustico word for the religious skullcap. Later the berettino would be known as the large, boxy, tasseled hat worn by the Catholic clerics.

In Spanish and Basque, the word for a beret is boina, accent on the "o" though it isn't written other than the way I've written it above; in French of course it's beret, accent on the 1st "e". Lately in the butchered Basque they now speak near the cities, the word is chapo, the Basque spelling of the French chapeau. I love the term boina, as it is nearly identical to the Gaelic word bonnaid, "bonnet", which in Gaelic also means "beret".

Romans invented the beret, and called it a pileus or a pileolus, again, names that were later to be applied to the Catholic clergy's skullcaps. Romans themselves wore berets as a two-for-one: it protected their beautiful wide-brim straw hats and it protected their heads.

The beret has always been, as a matter of form, very black in color. The Roman poorest classes had to wear black, as they had "Color Laws" similar to those of the Irish. Only the most powerful and wealthy Romans could wear a white beret. The fairly wealthy citizens had their pick of certain colors but not white...white came to be the highest honor bestowed to leading Roman civil servants.

Hence the pope's white garments.

Today the best Beret in the world is still made by the Hoquy Family in France, though they are Basque and not French. They've made berets longer than anyone, for well over 200 years. And if you wish to really pin down an ethnic origin for this amazing little marvel, go no further than ancient Rome.

And read the book, My Kingdom for a Crown: The Religious Skullcap by Archbishop Antonio Hernandez, if you want the best in etymology discussions on the subject.76.195.83.35 (talk) 06:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Bonnaid is merely the Gaelic rendering of the Ccots/English word 'bonnet' which derives from the French town of Bonnet, where there was specialised cloth industry. Possibly boina has the same derivation. I couldn't say.JF42 (talk) 16:35, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

"Berets in the military" a separate article

I think the subject of berets in the military has overwhelmed the rest of the article. Maybe it should be a separate article and keep this one for general information about berets. --Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 16:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I've completed the split at Military beret. –blurpeace ^(talk) 19:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Blue Devils reference removed

I removed the reference to the contra/tuba players in the Blue Devils Drum & Bugle corps, as those players actually wear a leather donegal cap, not a beret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.244.3 (talk) 20:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Cantabrian Volunteers (French infantry regiment),1740s-1760s

This light unit -"Volontaires Cantabres- was raised in the French basque provinces by the Chevalier de Bela, from Mauléon-Licharre, and surprisingly issued with blue berets. The unit was eventually upgraded to line infantry status as Royal Cantabrian Regiment (Régiment Royal-Cantabres), and disbanded in 1762. Against this context Cantabrian means Basque rather than Cantabrian. "http://www.Kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Royal_Cantabres_Infanterie"

Scottish blue berets (or at least bonnets)

The text points out that the French Chasseaurs Alpines were the first military unit in wearing berets. Aside from the short-lived Volontaires Cantabres -already mentioned by myself-, you are forgetting the Scottish army that took part in the English civil wars in the 1640s. Many Scottish soldiers were clad in hodden grey garments and wore a blue beret or bonnet. In the 18th century a blue beret with a white cockade was a Jacobite Scottish badge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The blue wool bonnets of the Scots soldiery (please dont call them 'berets'), however, were not military uniform, merely regional folk garments worn in an era before military uniform had really evolved. The beret of the chasseurs alpins, while an item of regional civilian headgear as well, was consciously sdopted an element of uniform, to create a distinctive regimental identity (while the rest of the French infantry wore shakos and kepis).JF42 (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Morgan Heck's about to get the heck kicked out of him

This makes the third time the following edit has been reverted: "Morgan Heck hand-knitted the first beret in 350 BC." - or a statement to that effect. This is obvious vandalism and I will report both the IP address that vandalised twice, and the relatively new username that has performed this vandalism today. Enough is enough. Djathinkimacowboy 20:02, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Eta is NOT an activist group, but a TERRORIST group

It´s so by many international organizations criteria, and most of western countries, including the EU countries, USA government, and many Hispanoamerican countries, among others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.50.95.103 (talk) 20:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

So was Nelson Mandela, and CNA, and Cuban insurgents, and anti-nazi resistance, and ....— Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.162.46.125 (talk • contribs)

Onion Johnnies?

The black beret is indeed stereotypical French headgear. Because I'm not British, I know of no French stereotype that corresponds to an "Onion Johnny" ... Because it has no currency among the majority of Anglophones, I wouldn't reference if I did. Confusingly, the page for Onion Johnny features a photo of 2 onion-laden men wearing wide-brimmed hats closer in appearance to a sombrero than a beret.Vendrov (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but ther’s a lot of pictures of Onion Johnnies wearing berets (see here: [1]). These, with hats and neckties, seem dressed for a folkloric event, not for work! --Morburre (talk) 13:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Beret/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The comments on the talk page are apt: this focuses disproportionately on the military use. That section could really be spun off as a list. Daniel Case 00:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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