Talk:Dependent territory

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UN list of dependent territories[edit]

User:Chipmunkdavis, User:Roger 8 Roger, User:Xevres, User:Wee Curry Monster My addition of the United Nations list of non-self-governing territories was reverted and object of a dispute. We should discuss whether to add it or remove it or something else.

Although there is a stand-alone page for it, the practice is prevalent to mirror some content of subtopics in the relevant pages. Therefore, I don't think my succinct table is redundant. In fact, I think omitting said information from this page is less than ideal, because it is essential information to the subject of the page. There may be text indicating that a dependent territory is on the UN list but it would be more practical and better format to have a separate table of said list as well. Thinker78 (talk) 21:42, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mirroring the table is redundant. We don't eg. have the US State Department list of dependent territories. CMD (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm puzzled by the section added above, aimed as it is toward a bunch of seasoned editors, it seems to me to violate WP:DTTR and aimed to browbeat your fellow editors. I'm sure that I may have misconstrued your motives but felt it important to bring to your attention, ie even if that were not your intention it rather frames your approach to comments. To add to the discussion, I am mildly in favour of the addition of that table but I also recognise the strong arguments against it; namely that is to some extent redundant and incomplete. As such I'm not inclined to press for inclusion, rather suggesting that a more rounded and complete approach is required. As currently formulated I'm not in favour of inclusion but I would be prepared to consider a constructive proposal that addresses the concerns presented. WCMemail 17:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Argumentum ad verecundiam. I have been in Wikipedia long enough to know that senior editors are not perfect (btw, I did not use a template). But tbh before posting the policies I was going to report the page to the edit warring noticeboard to be analyzed by editors more experienced about the issue. I decided against and instead just post the aforementioned thread that generated irk. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 04:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis maybe we should, as the US is a world power. I would understand if we don't have 10 lists of 10 different countries or organizations in this page. But it may be a good idea to include a select few of the most notable ones and make mention of others. After all, how was the current list compiled? Does it pick and choose items to include, does it have consistency? Thinker78 (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was compiled by consensus, and does have consistency. There are always questions around the system (as there are with all similar topics), however these are more noticeable here as a reflection of the topic itself, which has always somewhat of a term of convenience. CMD (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think we should list the UN list of dependent territories at the top, since this is the official list of dependent territories recognized by the United Nations Special Committee on Decolonization. Then we can add other remaining inhabited dependent territories by country. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:ACFE:7B23:904F:A674 (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uninhabited territories should be removed though. They aren't country-like dependencies, they don't even have a local government and they have no people to be governed either. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:ACFE:7B23:904F:A674 (talk) 07:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The West Bank and Gaza?[edit]

Should this article list the West Bank and Gaza as Dependent Territories? Per the Gaza article: "The territories of Gaza and the West Bank are separated from each other by Israeli territory. Both fell under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority, but the Strip is governed by Hamas, a militant, fundamentalist Islamic organization, which came to power in the last-held elections in 2006." Rxtreme (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A dependent territory must be legally external to the metropolitan state, which in turn must exercise control over it. How does this apply? TFD (talk) 19:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The West Bank is directly controlled by the State of Palestine, the Gaza Strip is controlled by a rebel militant group (Hamas). Both territories are integral parts of the State of Palestine, they are not dependent territories. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:ACFE:7B23:904F:A674 (talk) 04:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uninhabited islands and Antarctic claims[edit]

Uninhabited islands are not dependent territories. To be a dependent territory, the entity needs to function like a country, i.e. it should have three key elements: a defined territory, a permanent population, and a functioning local government. Uninhabited islands only have a defined territory and nothing else, they are not dependent territories. It doesn't matter what their administering states call them, they are merely "overseas territories" directly administered by their central governments.

All Antarctic claims are also uninhabited and therefore they are not dependent territories too.

I propose the removal of the following 24 territories and territorial claims from the list of dependent territories:

Uninhabited islands
  1. Akrotiri and Dhekelia (military bases)
  2. Ashmore and Cartier Islands
  3. Bajo Nuevo Bank
  4. Baker Island
  5. Bouvet Island
  6. British Indian Ocean Territory (Chagos Archipelago)
  7. Clipperton Island
  8. Coral Sea Islands
  9. Heard Island and McDonald Islands
  10. Howland Island
  11. Jarvis Island
  12. Johnston Atoll
  13. Kingman Reef
  14. Midway Atoll
  15. Navassa Island
  16. Serranilla Bank
  17. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
  18. Wake Island
Antarctic claims
  1. Australian Antarctic Territory
  2. British Antarctic Territory
  3. French Southern and Antarctic Lands
  4. Peter I Island
  5. Queen Maud Land
  6. Ross Dependency

2001:8003:9100:2C01:ACFE:7B23:904F:A674 (talk) 04:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you get these definitions? Did you just make them up? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has been defined by the United Nations. All dependent territories should function like countries. A dependent territory should have a permanent population. Its local people should have the option to break away from their parent state and create their own independent sovereign state via self-determination.
Uninhabited islands cannot become independent sovereign states. Hence, they are not dependent territories.
Source:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_1514 120.16.127.229 (talk) 03:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where exactly in that source does it say that? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, the whole source talks about that. The United Nations use the term "non-self-governing territories" instead of dependent territories, dependent areas, or dependencies to describe these country-like political entities, but they are the same thing.
Obviously, uninhabited islands are not dependencies since they don't function like countries, they are just remote external territories located far away from the mainland. They don't "depend" on their mainland administration, they are "administered" by their mainland administration. 120.16.127.229 (talk) 23:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are not the same thing: you are mistaken. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are the differences? Could you elaborate on details? 120.16.127.229 (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Colonies are not dependent territories. They are just different things and you are conflating them. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, all dependent territories have been classified as colonies by the United Nations. There are only two ways to avoid being classified as colonies:
1. Independence (i.e. becoming a sovereign State).
2. Fully incorporated with your parent state (i.e. becoming a normal administrative division). 120.16.48.249 (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this more made-up stuff on your part? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please quote the part that says "all dependent territories should function like countries" or anything even like that and the part about uninhabited islands. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@user:120.16.127.229, What you are saying is just your interpretation of what the UN writes or thinks. Even if it is obvious, it is still your opinion (primary source) and is therefore not a secondary source, and therefore should not be used a such. I also have doubts about your interpretation anyway. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And even if that were true, this is not UN-pedia. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dependencies and other territories" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect Dependencies and other territories has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 31 § Dependencies and other territories until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 21:07, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible vandalism[edit]

Please roll back the latest edits in the article to approximately the state of January 7, 2024. User Koavf changed the header of the tables of the dependent territories of New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom. Firstly, the matter has not been completed, and secondly, it has only gotten worse, since it is now unclear which territories are uninhabited and which are claimed.

Also, Palmyra Atoll was added to the table of dependent territories of the United States, although the table states before the table that this territory is excluded from the list because “it is classified as an incorporated territory under US law”. The result is a contradiction between the text, table and image at the very beginning of the article.

I apologize in advance for possible mistakes—I live in Russia and do not fully speak English.

Откатите, пожалуйста, последние правки в статье примерно до состояния на 7 января 2024 года. Пользователь Koavf изменил шапку таблиц зависимых территорий Новой Зеландии, Норвегии и Соединённого Королевства. Во-первых, дело не доведено до конца, а во-вторых, стало только хуже, поскольку теперь непонятно, какие территории необитаемы, а какие — заявлены.

Также в таблицу зависимых территорий Соединённых Штатов был добавлен атолл Пальмира, хотя перед таблицей сказано, что данная территория исключена из списка, так как «в законодательстве США она классифицируется как инкорпорированная территория». В итоге получается противоречие между текстом, таблицей и изображением в самом начале статьи.

Заранее извиняюсь за возможные ошибки — я живу в России и не в полной мере владею английским языком. Alexander Berezin 17.12.2002 (talk) 13:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support The old version is indeed a better one. The edits made by Koavf violate both WP:NPOV and WP:POINT. These edits should be reverted. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:D8C5:91F5:82F8:EFF4 (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What? How are they NPOV or POINT-y? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Your tables are ugly, man. The main purpose of this article is creating a list of dependent territories, so these territories should be the first (main) item in the table, not their political status. The original tables are easier for the readers to acquire information, not the weird ones created by you. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:B150:204C:65CD:3FA0 (talk) 01:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That in no way answers my questions at all. Have you read MOS:DTAB? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are required by MOS:TABLECAPTION. Do not remove them, just improve them. See also MOS:COLHEAD. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Koavf, your edits seem to have created new "Status" titles for NZ and Norway. Where were they from and why were the old ones changed? As for Palmyra that was not in Koavf's edits, and either way I have reverted. CMD (talk) 04:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Where were they from" ??? and "why were the old ones changed?" MOS:TABLECAPTION. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you explain how MOS:TABLECAPTION requires the changing of "Dependent territory" to "Territory" in some cases and "Dependency" in other cases? CMD (talk) 04:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does not. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so is there another reason for why you changed the status titles if not MOS:TABLECAPTION as you indicated in your previous answer? CMD (talk) 05:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are "status titles"? I still have no clue what you're talking about. There were no captions, there need to be captions, therefore, I added captions. I don't see what the problem is. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I provided specific examples two messages above. Given there was apparently no reason, I have restored the long-standing version. I do agree with OP that it is unusual for the tables to be inconsistent, so would suggest a future change be made to all tables instead of just 3. CMD (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So to be clear, you know that table captions are required per MOS:DTAB and they are used by the blind, but you removed them and you also know that MOS:COLHEAD says to not insert columns that span the table in the middle like this because they are difficult for blind users to navigate and you inserted them anyway? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I did was ask very openly why the content was changed. I got one answer, then a note that this was not actually the answer, then a dismissal. Those who are blind benefit as do all our readers from accurate and explainable content choices. CMD (talk) 02:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I in no way dismissed you: I asked you what you meant. You on the other hand dismissed me just now. The solution to what you perceive to be deficient table captions is not remove them, but improve them. Have you read MOS:DTAB? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have openly asked you from the beginning to explain the edits, which were clearly not just adding captions. I have provided specific quotes. I'm in some cases getting 3 word replies to my questions. And yes I have read the MOS. CMD (talk) 09:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have answered all your questions, but I don't know what a "status title" is, hence I asked. I explained that I did two things: I added table captions and removed column headers and gave you citations as to why: MOS:TABLECAPTION and MOS:COLHEAD. Since you have evidently read the entire MOS, I am still waiting on an answer to my yes–no question above. You know that captions are obligatory and you removed them. You know that column headers are disallowed and you added them (back). Why? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to your question I had already quoted the changes, which were not one of those two things you list now. I ma not sure why this is still being missed, despite my repeated mention of them. I already answered your second question too, here, also apparently missed. CMD (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is neither a yes nor a no: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dependent_territory&diff=prev&oldid=1217989001. Please do not play games while others are trying to be serious. You can easily answer "Yes, I did that, knowing better because I have read the MOS", but you are just being unserious. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Why?" is not a yes or no question. At any rate, I have as mentioned answered the questions, with an actual answer rather than the made up quote there. There is a very simple path forward, which is explaining the content changes I noted, explaining the content changes Alexander Berezin noted, and explaining the inconsistency within the page Alexander Berezin noted. I can't see how you can claim to be serious when none of these have been done over the past few days. CMD (talk) 10:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"So to be clear, you know that table captions are required per MOS:DTAB and they are used by the blind, but you removed them and you also know that MOS:COLHEAD says to not insert columns that span the table in the middle like this because they are difficult for blind users to navigate and you inserted them anyway?" does not include the word "why". I did not ask you "why", I asked you: "to be clear, you did x, yes or no" and you keep on not answering and then come up with demonstrably untrue nonsense about how I asked "Why..." which never happened. I'll add table captions and remove column headers to all the tables since you seem unwilling or unable to help blind users as the MOS explicitly says is necessary and per your directive to do so above. You could have also done this, but were motivated to write this noise instead. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You literally asked me "Why?" here. It is two of your messages above. Clearly the previous answers are still being missed, so I do not see this as productive. I have already noted a possible way forward above. CMD (talk) 10:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and prior to that, I asked another question that you did not answer, which is clearly the one that I am waiting on you to answer and which you won't because you're playing games. Go ahead and answer it. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your question prior to that was "Have you read MOS:DTAB?" to which I literally replied "yes". Further direct personal attacks assuming bad faith will be reported. CMD (talk) 10:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lol, I didn't make any personal attacks. Anyway, you've made it clear what your intentions are. You have a nice life and be good and be well. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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